ASHTON TAPER / CUT & HOLD SUPPORT

Hi everyone,

 

All too often I've read here on BB posts written by fellow buddies who feel as if they don't quite fit anywhere on this forum because they've chosen to taper from their benzo per the Ashton cut & hold method. I find this very sad. I am one of those buddies, as well.

 

The general consensus on this forum seems to be "the slower the better" in order to feel comfortable while tapering which, for many, is not necessarily true. I, for example, have tried everything throughout my taper to make it more bearable for me to get through but nothing has worked. I've tried:

 

1. Holding for short, medium, long, and very long periods of time.

2. Liquid titration.

3. Shaving pills.

4. Alternate day, up & down dosing.

5. Up-dosing one day per week.

6. Combining two different benzos.

 

and on and on. Maybe there is some method that I haven't tried but I highly doubt it. And, in spite of it all, I've still suffered.

 

I don't believe there is a way to get through benzodiazepine withdrawal without suffering in one way or another. I am not trying to say it isn't possible, nor am I trying to start a war with anyone who believes otherwise. I am simply sharing my experience based on my 21 month taper (so far) and stating what I've personally come to believe.

 

The tagline, "The only way out is through", is commonplace here on the forum and I agree with that sentiment one hundred percent. That is exactly what we are all doing no matter what taper method we've chosen for ourselves. No, I am not pushing through symptom-free and this is definitely not my idea of fun, but I am pushing through and I am making progress. For the past 3 months I've been tapering on the conservative side of Dr. Heather Ashton's recommendations and it is working. For me, it is working better than anything else that I have tried.

 

So, I am hoping this thread will grow into a safe haven for us buddies who have chosen to follow Dr. Ashton's linear protocol of tapering off of benzos. A place where we can come for support without being berated for tapering "too fast". A place for those of us who choose to believe that Dr. Ashton's groundbreaking 20-something years of experience really does make sense. And really does work given the "wiggle room" that she, herself, advocates.

 

Many believe that Dr. Ashton's work is outdated -- I am not one of them. If you aren't either, please join this support thread and let's help each other get "through" and "out" of this together. There is no reason in the world why we should continuously be searching for that elusive 'perfect-balance' which, more often than not, only serves to prolong our suffering and make this whole mess... well, a whole lot messier!

 

 

 

THE ASHTON MANUAL:  http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

 

 

 

with compassion,

 

koko 

I'm totally pro Ashton, my motto is dont be so open minded that your brain falls out.

Also, with my "issues", I have to make a plan and stick with it, or I'll never get there..

It's worked for me, in fact I'm on my last dose before I jump..

Only thing I do/did different is sometimes I hold 3 weeks before cutting, as opposed to the 14 days, but she allows room for that.

Thanks for the thread..

 

ps, although the site allows for different "theories", the Ashton Manual is the one link the moderators give each new member, and they state Ashton is "quote... A leading expert authority", they don't recommend anything else n that manner upon joining... that speaks volumes.

 

 

I don't see why Ashton's work would be outdated. What has changed to make her guidances less valid? She witnessed many people withdrawing from benzos and her perspectives are the sum total of all that experience. Who has had more experience than her and has shared it through publication? 

I believe Ashton revised/updated her theory where/when she saw fit, if I read correctly...but it was still mostly the same.

Benzy, congratulations on being so close to jumping. Good for you! I now know four BBs who are right on the cusp of freedom. And you are all Ashton taperers. I'm very happy for you.

 

Like you, I have to make a plan and stick with it, too. Not military-style or anything like that. But, like you said, sometimes holding a bit longer as needed. I've had to do that twice during the holidays. But I don't dilly dally too long because if I do then the fear of cutting again starts to rear its ugly head. 

 

I think another reason that I prefer Ashton's taper is that cutting has become a scheduled event for me. And since it's a scheduled event, I tend to focus on it less. And when I focus less on my taper then I focus less on my sxs. And when I focus less on my sxs then they're not as traumatizing as they otherwise would be. So it's kind of a chain reaction in that everything gets a little bit easier when I'm not overanalyzing every single little thing that's happening to me.

 

Hopefully you'll stick around a while after you jump so that those of us still tapering can benefit from your experience. Thanks for passing on your motto ... I'll try and make sure to minimize any brain spillage on my part. lol

 

 

 

koko

Nothing that I know of has changed to make her guidance less valid, Laser. And nobody has had more experience than her. Thank you for crystalizing the obvious.

 

Congratulations to you, too, on your taper ... I see that you're ready to jump as well. Woo hoo ... May you have a smooth landing! 

 

 

 

koko

I'm so glad you started this thread. 

 

Some of us really can go too slow…. I needed to be off benzos a long time ago.

 

I wish I'd followed the Ashton method from the beginning. If I had, I think I'd have had a much easier time of it. Things have definitely improved since I started following her manual, though. I'm miles better at .5mg than I was at 10. If I'd gone slower, I'm convinced that the only thing I'd have accomplished was to prolong my suffering.

 

I plan to jump on New Year's Eve. Wheeeee! 

I guess you know it will be hard to hold this thread together without a war, but... lol

my concern with the slow taper is  this, to me it would maybe produce a type of "tolerance", thats not a medical fact, just my own math... makes sense to me..

and those that Ive read about insisting its the only way to go, seem to have the most problems along the way....

 

thats just my observation from everything Ive read on here...

yes, just a couple more weeks and Im off this crap, Ive held this cut too long already, almost time to do my last cutting to 0.....

yeah, Ill hang around and tell everyone else what to do then.... I LOVE doing that...

Well, I know what you mean about people being very devoted to their withdrawal method of choice, but I think most people are for whatever works.

 

There's plenty of information about and support for micro-tapering, if that's how people want to proceed, but I sure could have used this thread earlier, as it was clear that micro-tapering wasn't for me. But I almost feel like, by following the Ashton method, I forgo my right to complain, lol.

 

For example, I had a wave not long ago … the day before I was due to cut. If I'd posted on the main forum about it, I'd most likely have been told that I was tapering too fast and that I should hold for a few weeks or--against the Ashton method--up-dosed.

 

I cut anyway, and lo and behold, the wave ended.

 

Repeatedly, throughout my taper, I feel better after a cut, but I have this weird reluctance to post about it … almost like I won't be believed … or it won't apply to most people … but hey, it might, you know?

 

All by way of saying, I wish I'd read about my experience before I experienced it. 

 

 

Yes I've been doing it Ashton style pretty much the whole time.  I started off badly because I was cut way to much, and that colored everything.

 

I think a lot of people micro-taper, not just because it helps them or is better, although that may be the case for some, but some people seem to do that because they are extremely anxious and fearful.  Not everyone.  But I definatly see that. 

 

I think Ashton's method does work pretty well.  The basis of it is a slow gradual reduction in dose.  And I think there is a reasonable slow gradual reduction in dose as opposed to an unreasonable reduction.  I think when it takes someone 2 years to get off 1 mg of valium, that is excessive and there is something else going on other than physical symptoms.  That is extreme fear.

Ashton never says her program is with withdrawals and all that goes with it, she just says it will work, and you will heal when you get through it, in fact she encourages people to push on through, after the appropriate time has passed...especially at the jump...

Hi, NoNo,

 

I know what you mean about holding too long because I did that once... well, twice, myself. The first time wasn't so bad but the second time set me back quite a bit. I was still experimenting and trying to find a w/d method that tempered my sxs but the 6 week hold did the opposite. It gave me more sxs than I had before I started the hold. I think that's what everyone refers to as "tolerance". I still haven't completely recovered from it. And that is when I started tapering Ashton style (I copied you, if you remember?). I'm so glad that I did because, even though I'm still very symptomatic, I'm at least functioning again relatively well.

 

And that you're doing so much better at 0.5mg than you were at 10mg? That gives me so much hope for the future. Not to mention that I'm so happy for you. This is the kind of support that I'm hoping we can all give each other. It's like getting a present when somebody says, "Hey, I've done it this way and I feel pretty okay!" 

 

Yay, for New Year's Eve! Look how much company you have in this thread alone as far as jumping goes. I'm so looking forward to seeing all the jumping going on in the new year. Lots of celebrating to come! 

 

 

 

koko

 

 

I guess you know it will be hard to hold this thread together without a war, but... lol

my concern with the slow taper is  this, to me it would maybe produce a type of "tolerance", thats not a medical fact, just my own math... makes sense to me..

and those that Ive read about insisting its the only way to go, seem to have the most problems along the way....

 

thats just my observation from everything Ive read on here...

 

Benzy,

 

Hopefully all of us buddies can be on the same forum together and respect one another's tapering methods without it turning into a war. I chose to start this thread rather than to jump into somebody else's thread and launch an attack. That would have been kind of silly. I wish the best for everyone here on this forum and would never want to see anybody get hurt. So, hopefully, people who join this thread will be given the same courtesy.

 

About the slow taper method? Other than what I just posted to NoNo about my long hold and possible tolerance, I also believe that short term users, due to very slow tapering, can actually become accidental hardcore addicts along the way. Say someone is on a low dose of the drug for a couple of months or so and then they decide to do a year or longer taper. Doesn't it stand to reason that they would become more and more addicted to the drug as time moved on? Just one of my many thoughts on the subject of super slow tapering.

 

 

koko

 

 

 

I guess you know it will be hard to hold this thread together without a war, but... lol

my concern with the slow taper is  this, to me it would maybe produce a type of "tolerance", thats not a medical fact, just my own math... makes sense to me..

and those that Ive read about insisting its the only way to go, seem to have the most problems along the way....

 

thats just my observation from everything Ive read on here...

 

 

Benzy I was thinking the same way about "tolerance". Thank you Koko for starting this thread I agree with you.

Hi Mairin,

 

I'm anxious and I'm fearful, too, but I don't want to drag this thing out any longer than I have to. I just plain don't. And, as you pointed out, Ashton's taper rate is within reason, so why continue this process any longer than absolutely necessary? In other words, I agree with you completely.

 

Sorry that you started off cutting too much. Although I haven't found it that unusual to read the same story of many of the other buddies here. So many of us start this withdrawal process off with next to no knowledge at all about how dangerous this drug is. And so we jump into the process with a gusto that either we accidentally inflict upon ourselves or that our doctors inflict upon us. The lack of public and medical awareness is so very sad. The UK is light years ahead of us. It makes me so ashamed of the US. 

 

Anyway, it's nice to meet you. I hope to get to know you better in the future. 

 

 

koko

I don't see why Ashton's work would be outdated. What has changed to make her guidances less valid? She witnessed many people withdrawing from benzos and her perspectives are the sum total of all that experience. Who has had more experience than her and has shared it through publication? 

 

Laserjet Congratulations on your taper, I was just wondering if you support the Ashton method why did you not switch to Valium?

Hi D21,

 

You're welcome and thank you for posting. I hope you'll stick around so we can support one another through this taper. It's the single most grueling thing I've ever been through in my life. I think most buddies probably feel the same way. But thanks to this forum we can at the very least hold each other's hand along the way and that means the world to me.

 

 

koko

Ashton never says her program is with withdrawals and all that goes with it, she just says it will work, and you will heal when you get through it, in fact she encourages people to push on through, after the appropriate time has passed...especially at the jump...

 

this should read "Ashton never says her program is "without" withdrawals, etc...

 

ya, tolerance, addiction, underlying issues, all that....

 

ya, we can keep it together here, because we all agree, so far, but when the "others" start it. well......im outta here!

"start it" should read "start in"...

I will be here Koko

Another thought I had was that Benzos are CNS depressants with side effects of depression, fatigue, cog fog, it generally slows everything down.This are symptoms that are added on top of the withdrawal symptoms.I may be wrong but my logic is telling me that the sooner one tapers the benzos the sooner they will get rid of the side effects. Yes it has to be reasonable,I rushed it once and end up in the ER.I learned my lesson and started following the Aston method.

Be in touch.

Hi everyone,

 

All too often I've read here on BB posts written by fellow buddies who feel as if they don't quite fit anywhere on this forum because they've chosen to taper from their benzo per the Ashton cut & hold method. I find this very sad. I am one of those buddies, as well.

 

The general consensus on this forum seems to be "the slower the better" in order to feel comfortable while tapering which, for many, is not necessarily true. I, for example, have tried everything throughout my taper to make it more bearable for me to get through but nothing has worked. I've tried:

 

1. Holding for short, medium, long, and very long periods of time.

2. Liquid titration.

3. Shaving pills.

4. Alternate day, up & down dosing.

5. Up-dosing one day per week.

6. Combining two different benzos.

 

and on and on. Maybe there is some method that I haven't tried but I highly doubt it. And, in spite of it all, I've still suffered.

 

I don't believe there is a way to get through benzodiazepine withdrawal without suffering in one way or another. I am not trying to say it isn't possible, nor am I trying to start a war with anyone who believes otherwise. I am simply sharing my experience based on my 21 month taper (so far) and stating what I've personally come to believe.

 

The tagline, "The only way out is through", is commonplace here on the forum and I agree with that sentiment one hundred percent. That is exactly what we are all doing no matter what taper method we've chosen for ourselves. No, I am not pushing through symptom-free and this is definitely not my idea of fun, but I am pushing through and I am making progress. For the past 3 months I've been tapering on the conservative side of Dr. Heather Ashton's recommendations and it is working. For me, it is working better than anything else that I have tried.

 

So, I am hoping this thread will grow into a safe haven for us buddies who have chosen to follow Dr. Ashton's linear protocol of tapering off of benzos. A place where we can come for support without being berated for tapering "too fast". A place for those of us who choose to believe that Dr. Ashton's groundbreaking 20-something years of experience really does make sense. And really does work given the "wiggle room" that she, herself, advocates.

 

Many believe that Dr. Ashton's work is outdated -- I am not one of them. If you aren't either, please join this support thread and let's help each other get "through" and "out" of this together. There is no reason in the world why we should continuously be searching for that elusive 'perfect-balance' which, more often than not, only serves to prolong our suffering and make this whole mess... well, a whole lot messier!

 

 

 

with compassion,

 

koko

 

Hi koko

I think this thread is a great idea! Ashton showed that her method worked for a very high percentage of people and she remains the best authority in this field. Those of us who join these support groups and post a lot are not the norm, and I suspect the Ashton tables will continue to work for most people. I can see how one could get the message that slower than Ashton is better, but I say that only applies to a minority of taperers who are over represented on BB. Keep up the good work. I wish I could have done my taper at the Ashton rates.

Bart

 

Bart

Congratulations you are done!!

When you say you could not go lower then 2mg V and started micro,did you try to cut the 2mg into 1/4 or less? I am just curious trying to understand, soon I will be reaching 2mg V .

D21

good evening everyone. I am new today to BB but not new to tapering. I begun my taper about 10 months ago from 1.5 mg xanax at bedtime to now my dose is .0325. which is 1 cut from .25 mg.

I have done the ashton taper all along doing the 0625 cuts every 14 to 16 days. typically on the 14th day i cut no matter what. I have had a fairly uneventful taper. I have had my share of physical pain both nerve and muscle, and mental stuff on and off. It has not been a cake walk but it has been tolerable. I have held down a full time job and went about my life as much as i could. I had bad days here and there but I found that positive thoughts and affirmations and staying active and keep moving has helped me tremendously.

The times when i would give into the symptoms i felt them badly but when i would get busy with something they would go away very quickly. There have been times when i felt terrible on the 14th day but i cut anyways and every time it made me feel better. and was and easy cut ! I have been ill the past week with a bladder infection and a virus but am getting over that with antibiotics but it has reved up my withdrawals but i'm trying to stay positive and keep pushing through it all. im sure i will be feeling better soon and i will probably make my normal cut on  Sunday day 14.

I had a good friend who tapered for about a year off xanax and used the ashton taper and did a 0625 cut the whole way every 14 days and he did great.so im hoping i will follow him the same way. I do believe that a nice slow micro taper is the very best for your CNS and your brain and body and has the best results of a full recovery and healing. It gives everything time to heal as you go along and does not shock the body in any way.

Good luck everyone with your tapers and Happy new year to all !!!!

well, to be "fair".... I "feel".... going slower than Ashton suggest would be ok.......but after a certain point I "feel" it would lead to the problems we've already suggested.

 

when I say slower I mean, like we've already suggested, just holding a week or two more, than she originally suggested,,,, I think she updated her manual didnt she, and extended her original suggestions herself, Im not sure...

 

but the micro tapering and such,,, geez, Im so glad Im not in that....right or wrong...