Benzo solvents discussion thread

For what it's worth intendI've used vodka to dissolve my valium tablet  since I ran into trouble with cut and hold at about 3 mgs. I started daily reductions then too. Both have worked out very well for me. Oh, I just use syringes that I purchased online from amazon . . . but I can see how a micropipette would be more accurate. Good luck to you!

 

Thanks SG for posting that solvents table again. I missed it the first time around.

 

Okatz

Okatz,

 

Thanks for that info. I've actually started tapering using the milk method, and so far it's going ok.

 

This alcohol solvent situation may work out great for all those benzos listed, but since I wanted to get started, I didn't want to experiment with anything I wasn't familiar with, and I'm very familiar with liquid titration using whole milk.

 

I actually bought my syringes online at vitality medical. I think SG has done us all a great service by researching this. I think we all recognize that Ativan and Valium have good solubility in alcohol, but this new information is important. Hopefully, someone will use it to try out these other benzos.

 

Once again, thank you for your concern. I appreciate it.

Recently on the MT thread there has been discussion about propylene glycol as a solvent for benzo tapering, especially for use in much the same way as alcohol and water are used.  Jouyban has published on this and generated data for both V and K in PG/water mixtures.  I am not sure if data for the other benzos exists.  I am posting what I have here to record it on the forum so it can be searched.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in propylene glycol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% PG.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

%PG  V      A    Lib    K      X

0      0.04                  0.03

10    0.13                  0.03

20    0.15                  0.06

30    0.27                  0.09

40    0.49                  0.18

50    0.81                  0.31

60    1.57                  0.87

70    3.33                  1.48

80    6.16                  2.81

90    9.95                  3.70

100 12.19                  5.85

 

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

Adding more data to this thread.  A chart of the Jouyban data for PG-water mixtures.  He measured diazepam and clonazepam.

 

Source:  Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals, A. Jouyban, ed., CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2010.

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/Seth_Ghiorse/PG-water%20solubility_zps3nsk2whd.jpg

I think the reason the PG/water and alcohol/water methods work is the fact that benzos DO dissolve in water...just enough.  The benzo is first dissolved in a small amount of either PG or alcohol, then diluted with water and the resulting mixture is essentially water...usually ~98%...yet the benzo remains in solution.  Fortunately for us, Jouyban measured water solubility for all the common benzos.  Here is the water solubility data we have from Jouyban.

 

Solubility of Benzos in Water (mg/ml)

Valium      .04

Ativan        .05

Librium      .11

Klonopin    .03

Xanax        .04

 

When using the PG/water and alcohol/water methods we need to keep the concentration of benzo BELOW these values.  A solution strength of .01mg/ml (1mg=100ml) or less is probably a good rule to follow.

 

Mods: This thread would seem to belong in the Titration section.  I'm not sure why I put it here.  Could you please move it?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

The universal solvent for all benzo's is  Polypropylene Glycol - I still think particle suspensions are just as good and they can be made with cheap things like diluted instant pudding mix.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/184-7345082-0958909?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Polypropylene+glycol

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS0&_nkw=Polypropylene+glycol&_sacat=0

The universal solvent for all benzo's is  Polypropylene Glycol - I still think particle suspensions are just as good and they can be made with cheap things like diluted instant pudding mix.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/184-7345082-0958909?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Polypropylene+glycol

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS0&_nkw=Polypropylene+glycol&_sacat=0

  So how would you make tiny dose reductions, like in hundredths of a mg, using instant pudding?

I think the reason the PG/water and alcohol/water methods work is the fact that benzos DO dissolve in water...just enough.  The benzo is first dissolved in a small amount of either PG or alcohol, then diluted with water and the resulting mixture is essentially water...usually ~98%...yet the benzo remains in solution.  Fortunately for us, Jouyban measured water solubility for all the common benzos.  Here is the water solubility data we have from Jouyban.

 

Solubility of Benzos in Water (mg/ml)

Valium      .04

Ativan        .05

Librium      .11

Klonopin    .03

Xanax        .04

 

When using the PG/water and alcohol/water methods we need to keep the concentration of benzo BELOW these values.  A solution strength of .01mg/ml (1mg=100ml) or less is probably a good rule to follow.

 

Mods: This thread would seem to belong in the Titration section.  I'm not sure why I put it here.  Could you please move it?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

 

I dont know if this is valuable info or not but I took your advice SG and dissolve .5mg X into 5ml etoh and 95ml water for a solution of .005mg/ml. I have been dosing this for about 3 weeks now without any problems at all. the solution lasts me about 6 days and I keep it on the counter inside a couzie to block out the light.

I think the reason the PG/water and alcohol/water methods work is the fact that benzos DO dissolve in water...just enough.  The benzo is first dissolved in a small amount of either PG or alcohol, then diluted with water and the resulting mixture is essentially water...usually ~98%...yet the benzo remains in solution.  Fortunately for us, Jouyban measured water solubility for all the common benzos.  Here is the water solubility data we have from Jouyban.

 

Solubility of Benzos in Water (mg/ml)

Valium      .04

Ativan        .05

Librium      .11

Klonopin    .03

Xanax        .04

 

When using the PG/water and alcohol/water methods we need to keep the concentration of benzo BELOW these values.  A solution strength of .01mg/ml (1mg=100ml) or less is probably a good rule to follow.

 

Mods: This thread would seem to belong in the Titration section.  I'm not sure why I put it here.  Could you please move it?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

 

I dont know if this is valuable info or not but I took your advice SG and dissolve .5mg X into 5ml etoh and 95ml water for a solution of .005mg/ml. I have been dosing this for about 3 weeks now without any problems at all. the solution lasts me about 6 days and I keep it on the counter inside a couzie to block out the light.

 

Sounds good.  According to the Jouyban data you need a bare minimum of 12.5ml to keep .5mg X dissolved, so you are well beyond that.

The universal solvent for all benzo's is  Polypropylene Glycol - I still think particle suspensions are just as good and they can be made with cheap things like diluted instant pudding mix.

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/184-7345082-0958909?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Polypropylene+glycol

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS0&_nkw=Polypropylene+glycol&_sacat=0

  So how would you make tiny dose reductions, like in hundredths of a mg, using instant pudding?

 

With a very tiny pudding spoon of coarse   Just kidding

 

The idea is to use the pudding mix and aim for a watery/smoothie texture without bubbles.  Something you can still use an eye dropper on.  Takes practice but the formula I used was 12 parts water and one part instant pudding mix by volume (Jello brand)

 

I did not crush pills but just let them stand in a water bottle until  (small shaker bottle) until they fell apart.  After dong it 1120 days in a row you become a "French chef" at this, no more measuring needed    (except for the .001 gram scale)

 

If your going to be in a hot place all day and worry about bacteria in the pudding 5% vodka added can keep it from spoiling.  Your gaba receptors will not mind a pinch of Vodka 

Whatever works for you...

Whatever works for you...

 

Hi Builder :D  

It doesn't say anything about ativan...also the rx ativan i once had said 1mg to 5ml of PG/glycerin i dont know the conversion. Also says needs to be kept in fridge and lasts 28 days after opening.

 

 

 

 

Interesting discussion. It seems if you're in tolerance, the best course of action is to just get it over with and  move on down and off the benzo in whatever manner you can. The long symptoms based method isn't going to work for you. IMO, tapering off 2 benzos at the same time also seems reasonable for some people due to variable subtype coverage. If I had it to do over again I would have tried harder to get off the Ativan directly and avoided the Valium crossover. I was doing OK tapering Ativan but after reading Ashton I thought that a crossover to Valium was the way to go. During a crossover you're actually going through withdrawal to one benzo while becoming dependent on another one. There will be some persistent receptor subtypes that are not going to be covered adequately by the new benzo while other subtypes will experience more down-regulation from the new benzo.

 

When i tried to cross over to valium from 2mg of ativan a year ago...i started the first 2,5 dose of valium and cut the ativan soon afterwards i got serious cns problems i became photosensitive and got serious photophobia and teeth nerve pain ...i have spent 11 months indoors as i cant tolerate light at all on face and eyes...im just wondering if i should get off this shit as quickly as possible...