Benzo solvents discussion thread

Contact Birdman, but I believe xanthan gum is an ingredient in Ora Plus.  Seems like maybe a homemade less costly version?

Whether doing a daily taper or cut and hold a great way to divide any benzo is by using a dissolving liquid.

 

There is a great knowledge base here at BB and I am convinced useful dissolving liquids exist for all benzos, however, info on what solvents to use for what benzo is scattered everywhere and this thread is an attempt to concentrate lots of info in one place.  There is a real need to nail down what benzos dissolve in what liquids so that these liquids can be used with confidence.

 

Fat (i.e., milk), alcohol, and water...I'm wondering if these three liquids take care of all the benzos??

 

I'll start by listing some that I know work and don't work, and others that I suspect work, for the common benzos.

 

Valium - fat-soluble, whole milk works great; soluble in alcohol, NOT soluble in water

Klonopin - fat-soluble, whole milk works great; NOT soluble in water; not sure about alcohol?

Librium - water-soluble, water works great; not sure about fat or alcohol

Xanax -

Ativan - soluble in alcohol; NOT water-soluble; fat??

 

Reliable info is needed for ativan and xanax.  There don't seem to be any go-to solvents for them and people are scrambling for answers.  I suspect alcohol might be an answer, at least for ativan, but a problem arises when we try to dilute the alcohol with water.  How does the diluting water affect the solution?

 

Enough for now...don't want the post to get too long.

 

Hopefully this thread will become a useful reference resource.

 

Anybody have any info to add??

 

Hiya SG57.  You may be interested in this post.  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=74185.msg985662#msg985662

 

I have sent you a PM with more info about the Jouyban book.

 

 

 

I used everclear to make solution, before I started getting real solution from a compounding pharmacy. It worked fine. It's volatile and it tastes terrible, though. The amount of ethanol you ingest in 2ml of everclear did not alarm me, it's about the same alcohol content as 1/8th a bottle of Amstel Light (which is a very week beer). If you're hypersensitive to alcohol I suppose that could be a concern, but even at that... it's a tiny amount.

Bump

 

 

I use the prescription liquid lorazepam manufactured by Roxane Labs. It is a concentrated suspension in propylene Glycol ( PG ) and a tad bit of Polyethylene Glycol 3350 (Miralax!). I think the miralax can be forgotten about.

 

The PG USP is available at amazon, and is much cheaper than the Ora plus.

So, say for ativan/lorazepam, I don't see any reason that pills couldn't be dissolved in a tiny bit of everclear/vodka-whatever, and then dispersed into the PG. It seems to me that this would "hold" it suspended much better than water, wouldn't it!

 

When i dilute my liquid lorazepam, which comes in a 2mg per ml suspension (60 mg in 30 ml of PG), I simply dilute the whole thing with 30 ml of PG to get a 1mg per ml suspension. i then pull my dose with a micropipettor, squirt it into a little water and drink it down.

 

PG is not as thick & viscous as glycerine. Possibly a combination of the two would hold the powder suspended well enough for those who have trouble pulling a consistent dose using just alcohol and water. Although the PG alone might be adequate. i would definitely NOT use large amounts of glycerine, though...it's a humectant, which might make things a little uncomfortable! 

 

Just some thoughts...

Lea

This is a good idea leanek, however is PG only available online?

This is a good idea leanek, however is PG only available online?

I didn't know this but u can have a pharmacist order usp grade propylene glycol

 

This is a good idea leanek, however is PG only available online?

I didn't know this but u can have a pharmacist order usp grade propylene glycol

 

Oh wow. I will have to ask my pharmacy if they have it. Interesting someone made a video of it.

Bump.  Resurrecting this old thread.

 

I came across some disturbing data on Librium solubility in water.  According to this researcher, who seems to do a lot with pharmaceutical solubility, Librium is nearly insoluble in water.  This contradicts what most here believe, that Librium can be dissolved in water.  Table 4 and Figure 1 have the data.  Not sure what to make of this.  It conflicts with what we see here.  Am I missing something?

 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je900200k

 

It also shows that diazepam, lorazepam, and librium dissolve well in alcohol-water mixtures as long as the proof is high (above ~150).

 

Thoughts?

Interesting info.  Here's something I found:

 

A white to practically white crystalline substance, it is soluble in water. It is unstable in solution and the powder must be protected from light.  Link to quote

 

Unstable in solution?  Hmm.    

 

It would be nice if Aweigh, Laserjet and Builder and other scientific types, would weigh in on this. 

Interesting info.  Here's something I found:

 

A white to practically white crystalline substance, it is soluble in water. It is unstable in solution and the powder must be protected from light.  Link to quote

 

Unstable in solution?  Hmm.   

 

It would be nice if Aweigh, Laserjet and Builder and other scientific types, would weigh in on this.

 

Right.  I always took that as gospel that Librium was soluble in water.  But now I have another source who says that 1ml of water can only dissolve .1mg of Librium.  This is an obvious conflict between the two sources.  The one who says it only dissolves .1mg is Jouyban, who wrote the book, literally, on solubility of pharmaceutical drugs.  Hard to write that off.

Get  Clorazepate - Tranxene  it's the ULTIMATE taper drug.

 

200 hour half life

Water soluble in seconds

AND it does does not have a 'BAD RAP"

 

Let's try a test:

 

"I am Valium Dependent"

"I am Xanax Dependent"

"I am Clorazepate Dependent"    See it even sounds nicer 

 

Clorazepate, yeah no body knows what the heck it even is 

 

Cloraza-what??? 

 

I've generated a chart of benzo solubility from data found online.  Thought it would be useful so I am sharing it here.

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/Seth_Ghiorse/Benzosolubility_zps599343c1.jpg

 

I'd appreciate any input on this.  I converted the solubility units to mg/ml so they would be easier for us to relate to so if anyone can check the numbers that would be great.  This seems like reliable data to me.  A couple of things are eye-opening, at least to me...

 

- Librium, contrary to popular belief, is not much more soluble in water than other benzos.

- they all do poorly at the low proof end.

- no matter the benzo, the peaks all occur near ~85-90% alcohol, not 100%.

- Clonazepam dissolves quite well - up to 6mg in a single ml.

 

Another thing I found interesting is that, on a Valium-equivalent basis, the best-dissolving is lorazepam followed by clonazepam.  Valium and Librium, although they do well also, are a distant third and fourth.

 

I wanted to include Xanax in this, but I searched and searched and was unable to come up with any Xanax data.  If anybody knows of any please let me know.

 

A lot of people are using alcohol to help dissolve their benzos.  I think this will be useful to them.  As far as online data goes, these researchers seem to be about it.  We are lucky to have access to their work.  If anyone knows of other sources for benzo solubility, please let me know.  I hope some people find this useful.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

These are my thoughts and concerns.

 

I have a somewhat complicated benzo history, maybe no moreso than others here, but the effect has it's individual one.

 

And thus, I've had to do a very long hold. But I'm now experiencing side effects from this klonopin, and this hold will end hopefully sometime this fall after I consult with my doctor.

 

My plan is to do a liquid titration using whole fat milk and starting at a substantially low cut. I am well versed in liquid titration and the cuts it requires to do a very gentle cut.

 

But after reading this thread, now I wonder if I should contemplate some other liquid besides whole milk. Should I try some type of alcohol based on the results of all this investigation and what has been discovered in the results of these researchers?

 

I realize this is up to me, but I too am interested in the thoughts of others especially after reading about the solubility of klonopin in alcohol.

Hi Intend.  I've often thought that, if I had my taper to do again, I'd put the K in whole milk and do a daily taper like you are planning.  But over the last few months I have learned about two new things - alcohol solubility and micropipettes.  Now I think what I would do is dissolve the K into Everclear 151 (75% alcohol to get near the peak of the curve) and use a micropipette instead of a syringe to dose.  I've never handled one, but they seem accurate and durable.

Thanks SG.

 

I'm glad I have some time here to experiment a bit. I have some older K tabs also, and my husband has vodka, but I can surely lay my hands on ever clear.

 

I've been putting this off because I did have time with this hold going on. The alcohol discussion has popped up here and there, but this thread today just kind of forced me to really think about what I want to do.

 

Thanks again for your information. I appreciate it.

And thus, I've had to do a very long hold. But I'm now experiencing side effects from this klonopin, and this hold will end hopefully sometime this fall after I consult with my doctor.

 

My plan is to do a liquid titration using whole fat milk and starting at a substantially low cut. I am well versed in liquid titration and the cuts it requires to do a very gentle cut.

 

But after reading this thread, now I wonder if I should contemplate some other liquid besides whole milk. Should I try some type of alcohol based on the results of all this investigation and what has been discovered in the results of these researchers?

 

Hello Intend.  This is slightly off topic (but not hugely so).  Like you I was symptomatic after a long hold.  Also like you, I am familiar with SurvivingAntidepressants and tend to value the opinion of the regulars there.

 

However, after I jumped I could look back and see that my very slow taper and long holds were increasing my tolerance until it got to a crazy level unlike much of what I have ever read here on BB.  Even then I didn't think it was tolerance.  In fact, I dismissed notions of tolerance because I had read so many incorrect definitions of tolerance here that I switched off whenever anyone mentioned it.  I think I also switched off to the idea that I may actually be experiencing it.

 

In an attempt to reduce the almost continuous symptoms I tried daily cuts which started when I learned about them from Jana's BenzoDetoxRecovery site.  However when you have symptoms then the changes from daily cuts can be very subtle and it is hard to detect (between the inevitable fluctuations) that you are getting worse and worse until a month or so after it started.  So I opted for weekly cuts of 0.1mg using diluted liquid diazepam.  I felt them a bit but not a lot and feeling the cuts was a good thing because it allowed me to regulate the rate of my taper in a way which was impossible with daily cuts.

 

I mention all this because the biggest mistake I made was to think that a combination of very slow tapering and daily cutting would, if it could get it right, significantly reduce my symptoms.  The truth was that as I was in tolerance I should have aimed to get off benzos as quickly as possible even if it involved some very unwelcome suffering.  What happened was my tolerance got very much worse over the year or two of slow tapering.

 

Just my 2 cents worth!

Braban,

 

Thank you for your response. I don't think I am in tolerance (although the thought has crossed my mind).

 

I actually crossed over to K in a symptomatic state. So those sx have been with me for awhile now, and I didn't expect that crossing to K would alleviate that problem. I did adjust to K during this hold, and feel ok for awhile (maybe 5 weeks) but during the hold, I would always return to "side effect type sx" for another few weeks. This has been the pattern of my "adjustment" to K since i began this hold. And prior to crossing to K, I had just up dosed on my Xanax by .5 mg as per my previous doctor. And I definitely was not in tolerance on the Xanax. It was increased by the doctor as a "last ditch effort to "get the Xanax to work again" as she had switched me back and forth between X and K 4 times in less than 6 months.

 

So, I went into this cross already symptomatic, and with trying to get onto K w/o doctor guidance, I literally had to figure this cross out myself. I started out on about 1.25 mg X, and by the time all of my unguided efforts were complete (from 11/28/11-about 5/28/12, and this included repeat visits to the doctor who kept switching me back and forth), I was at 2 mg K + .5 mg X. On my last visit to her, she advised the .5 mg updose of X. When that had no effect on my body's reaction to X, she put me back on K, but I was now on 3 mgs X. So the cross was to that amount. And I had learned how to do that  myself after researching.

 

This drug is still affective for me in that I don't have anxiety, nervousness, GI issues, but I am noticing what I interpret as some increasing side effects. I've always had side effects on K, but I've thought that the longer I'm on it, they are affecting me a bit more.

 

I too respect the opinions of those on Survivingantidepressants, and they are the ones (in conjunction with my doctor) who recommended this hold. I don't know that enough time has gone by to even develop tolerance as I've been on K for literally weeks during 2011-2012 (interspersed with weeks on X), and then partially on it during the cross which took 6 months with that finally ending on 12/5/12. Than I had 3 months of 3 mg K. And then I attempted a liquid taper which was unsuccessful due to all this "receptor fooling around." And this hold began on 8/31/13. So this a lot of info to read, but I'm not sure that's enough time to go into tolerance given my already symptomatic state, my up doses due to lack of doctor guidance, and my final updose as per the doctor.

 

Maybe it is enough time. I just do know that this hold must end at some point, tapering must begin, I am very sensitive due to most likely the kindling effect (which is why the last try at tapering didn't go well), and side effects (which I don't have many) are hard to distinguish from withdrawl effects (which is what happens during tolerance). I actually had planned on starting out very low, holding awhile to see the effects, and then taking it as it comes. I doubt that I'd be successful at a complete daily cut so hold would be most likely be necessary.

 

I don't know how long you held or why. Any more info you give me about what I've just written would be appreciated.

Hiya Intend.  I find your benzo history can be mind-boggling and especially so when I look up some further details of your experience.  I don't think there will ever be an explanation for all you have gone through.  However I know I misunderstood tolerance and I experienced symptoms which got progressively worse over the months and year of my slow taper (and which were unevenly counterbalanced by the decreasing side effects from the reductions in benzo dose).

 

Researchers into GABA receptor such as Bateson (whom Ashton relied upon for some of the theory in her manual and cites in her references) have suggested that tolerance and dependency are very closely linked and may even be different facets of the same phenomenon.  In other words, if you have dependency then you may have tolerance.  I'm not sure I can easily agree with all of what that implies but I ignored the possibility of tolerance to my cost.

 

There are certainly some strange factors associated with tolerance which can't be fully explained.  For example tolerance does not occur to all types of symptom at the same rate.  Attempts at looking at GABA subunits haven't explained this definitively.

 

Some authors have noticed that certain types of tolerance can occur very quickly.  For example Dart writes the following in "Medical Toxicology" and I believe it was observed very early on in the research into benzos but never much followed up.

 

Chapter 132:  Benzodiazepines.  TOLERANCE AND DEPENDENCE.  Tolerance occurs to a number of pharmacodynamic effects of the benzodiazepines.  Although tolerance usually takes a few days to develop fully, signs of acute tolerance can be demonstrated within 4 to 6 hours of a single dose of benzodiazepine (i.e. within one dosing interval).  This is due to downregulation of benzodiazepine receptor binding and reduction in GABAA receptor function. 

 

I don't mention these other views as a way of trying to untangle precisely what is going on and somehow find a deterministic understanding to inform the rest of anyone's taper;  I don't think that's possible.  What I can say is that I was in a lot of tolerance and really should have worked it out when I had lots of symptoms despite long holds and very slow tapering over 2 years.  However, despite knowing the theory, I didn't.

 

And to bring this back on topic, refinements to my methods of tapering didn't make much difference at all and I shouldn't have placed so much store in them because they became too absorbing for me to maintain a perspective of what was happening.

 

 

 

Well, Braban,

 

I'm not sure what to say about all these Ashton studies (and others). Nor do I do not know how to "align" this concept of dependency and tolerance being closely linked. I'm sure they are in some way, but we have pretty much established that "most" of us here pretaper are in varying degrees of dependency or "addiction" as some prefer.

 

Just coincidentally, I did start searching the Internet after your post last night and came up with that article I've seen you cite on SA and in one of your posts here by Vinckers and Olivier. Quite a read to wade through, but I did read it and saw where they go though the 5 aspects of benzos and discuss how these effects may "drop off" at decidedly different times, and that this may be because of the way the sub receptors are effected. (I think I read this all correctly). Thus people may become tolerant in some aspect, but wait much longer to reach that tolerability in another of the 5 aspects.

 

I was very "firmly attached" receptor wise to Xanax, and even during my cross (and the other previous ones), I just could not seem to break through that affinity once I got to 2 mgs K and .5 mg X. That was why I kept seeing the doctor in some apparently futile hope she could help me when she had proven she couldn't already and that her solution was to return to the previous benzo (X to K and K to X). Even when I took the cross into my own hands, I distinctly felt the Xanax "pull" when I reached 2 mg K and (by then ) 1 mg X. I had been exchanging .25 mg K for .25 mg X, but at that point, I dropped my exchanges to .125 mg K for .125 mg X. I finally had to drop to .0625 mg exchanges, and that took 5 weeks. And I still felt that X affinity long after the exchange was history.

 

I've never thus felt a benzo is a benzo is a benzo as they all seem to hit different sub receptors, while others are left "wanting." At least that's my experience. So yes, it's way complicated for me. And I have had those good weeks and then those "less good weeks." And when I check the side effect list on the Mayo Clinic site (most extensive one I've seen), I see what are clear side effects that I've experienced from day one. One of the most difficult for me is the change in my voice which drops to a whisper by nighttime. For some reason, the Mayo Clinic site doesn't differentiate between adverse affects and side effects, only saying that some require "medical attention" and perhaps a drop in dose (if memory serves here).

 

But no matter what, I just don't feel I can launch into a rapid taper type w/d here. I'm highly functional, but those side effects are wearing on me. That's why I prefer to "take it as it comes" by starting out small. Believe me, I'm so "not in love " with K, that I'd taper off it by dry cutting .0625 mgs at a time if I could. Maybe I can once I get started. Time will tell, I suppose. I'd like to give my brain a good chance to heal if I could. I'm not a short time user as you know. All this benzo usages add up to about 12-13 years. Caution is in order. If the side effects get better, and that's what's bugging me, I'm not sure what other stuff my pop up. Gotta try. Yes, I'm wary and somewhat scared. 

 

Interesting discussion. It seems if you're in tolerance, the best course of action is to just get it over with and  move on down and off the benzo in whatever manner you can. The long symptoms based method isn't going to work for you. IMO, tapering off 2 benzos at the same time also seems reasonable for some people due to variable subtype coverage. If I had it to do over again I would have tried harder to get off the Ativan directly and avoided the Valium crossover. I was doing OK tapering Ativan but after reading Ashton I thought that a crossover to Valium was the way to go. During a crossover you're actually going through withdrawal to one benzo while becoming dependent on another one. There will be some persistent receptor subtypes that are not going to be covered adequately by the new benzo while other subtypes will experience more down-regulation from the new benzo.

Just posting this data from Jouyban in table form for reference.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in ethanol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% ethanol.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

% Alc.  V          A        Lib      K          X

0        0.04    0.05    0.11    0.03    0.04

10      0.11    0.11    0.19    0.04

20      0.21    0.23    0.29    0.08

30      0.57    0.77    0.80    0.20

40      1.90    3.51    2.89    0.60

50      4.76    4.19    7.48    1.43

60    11.17    8.04    12.48    2.64

70    21.31  13.09    22.89    4.22

80    28.67  17.33    31.81    5.65

90    38.36    6.64    31.72    6.18

100  26.07  10.89    19.46    5.11

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

 

Edit to straighten out table.

Hello SG57.  That table's a nice summary.  The Librium values surprised me as I thought it was freely soluble in water going from memory.

 

I would guess that data came from Jouyban's "Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals."  Have you seen this paper by him?  It seems to answer a similar question to your table and he may have fed the data into his handbook.

 

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/m2/1/high_res_d/Acree%20-%20Pub%20486.pdf

 

 

 

 

Hello SG57.  That table's a nice summary.  The Librium values surprised me as I thought it was freely soluble in water going from memory.

 

I would guess that data came from Jouyban's "Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals."  Have you seen this paper by him?  It seems to answer a similar question to your table and he may have fed the data into his handbook.

 

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/m2/1/high_res_d/Acree%20-%20Pub%20486.pdf

 

Yes, I agree about Librium.  That surprised me as well and I'm not sure what to make of it.  On the one hand this data seems rock solid, yet we also have people using plain water to dissolve Librium here and reporting no problems.  What do you think about that?

 

The table data is from that paper you cited and one other.  They are both available online.  And I think the data in the Handbook is one and the same.  We are very fortunate to have such a high quality study available to us.  Almost tailor made.  Kind of an odd omission that Xanax was not included, although he did measure its solubility in water.

Yes, I agree about Librium.  That surprised me as well and I'm not sure what to make of it.  On the one hand this data seems rock solid, yet we also have people using plain water to dissolve Librium here and reporting no problems.  What do you think about that?

 

Hello SG.  This is not a field I know much about but I guess maybe the different excipients used by different manufacturers affect solubility in vitro (which is the sort of thing slow taperers are concerned with) but do not affect absorption in the gut. 

 

In other words, solubility may vary between manufacturers but the dose from each manufacturer is the same. 

 

If this phenomenon happens at all then I suspect it would be well known.