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Help with deciding whether to updose further


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Foggy benzo brain and my body feels toxic with a range of sx - trying to decide whether to hold the course or updose a bit further to become more stable.

Currently 3mg V, was at 2mg after an overly rapid taper from 10mg. Sat at 3mg for the past 6 days. Ups and downs in that time, and sx changing around but overall not really improving. Dep, de-personalisaton, nausia, cog fog. Not in a great place to make a sound decision.

 

Too soon to judge - stick it out at 3mg? Or go up another notch to seek relief. Am reluctant to, as it makes the journey back down longer in future. But if I haven't healed sufficiently from the higher doses, I may not be ready to stay at 3mg???

 

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Hi Bolders

 

If you've been at 3mg for 6 days and you haven't found there to be any improvement at all I would be inclined to say try going up by say 0.5mg increments and hold again each time to see if things improve. The important thing is to try to get to a stable dose so you can start your taper.

 

Try not to think about what that dose might be, or how long it will take you to taper. The dose will be what it will be, and you will feel much better doing a taper if you start from a stable position.

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Thanks DiazPam - thinking I need to get stable even if that means coming back up the ladder more than I'd like. Considering going up to the 5mg pill to really nail the problems I've had for months now since coming down from 10mg way too fast. It was about 4-5mg on the way down when it was really clear I was getting into trouble. I'm thinking this is a "reinstate" to a stable dose.

 

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Hi Bolders,

 

Sorry to hear that you are feeling so bad. I am not a doctor, but from everything I have read over the last year of my taper (and I have done a lot of reading) is that the people who have tapered way down and reinstated several times have a difficult time getting stable and many cannot get stable until they get off the medicine because your CNS is so confused from the previous tapers.

 

I was on this poison for 30 years and I tapered a little faster than suggested, but I am feeling much better now and I am very glad that I did it faster. If I were you, I would dig in and suffer through your taper and get the poison out of your system so you can start to heal. You have been bouncing around for too long now. You can do it Bolder's. Believe that you will make it through your taper and dig in and do it and be done with it. Yes, you are going to be sick for awhile, but you have been sick for some time and it isn't going to magically go away. Believe in yourself and you can do anything !

 

Good luck !!

 

Patrick     

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I updosed to 5mg and have taken that for 5 days. It has changes the types of sx I'm getting, but I'm still really pretty sick - burning GI, depressed, cog fog, lethargic. I'm really weary of feeling ill for so long, and struggling to be functional each day. I'm confused and upset as to why I don't feel better than I do.

 

My intent is to get to a place where sx are less and I'm coping better, and to taper from there. My plan is not to alter this dose again for quite a while, and then taper slowly. But I thought I'd see a fairly rapid improvement coming back up to 5mg, which was the last spot I felt stable and things seemed pretty mangeable.

 

I guess I'm scared that as ama732mx1 suggests I've made a mess of my CNS with past failed tapers and I just won't stablise now. To taper quickly off from here will make a wreck of me for many months, based on tapering too fast recently and the experience of others here. I still believe I need to do it slowly from a starting point where I'm in a good place.

 

Do I just need to be patient and stick it out at this updosed amount and let my system settle down? I was clearly paying for tapering too low too fast when I was at 2 or 3mg. Nobody around me 'gets' why I'm ill, told my wife I'd updose to relieve symptoms, and my doctor doesn't really have anything to add.

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[43...]

You need to updose until feeling better...(maybe all the way back up to 10, your body will tell you) and then HOLD for 4 weeks to allow the Valium to build up in your system.

 

You can updose in 2mg increments every few days - do not updose any slower than that or tolerance will just follow you up.

 

Withdrawal symptoms are a result of reducing the drug faster than your body can repair. Cutting again while in bad withdrawal will just make the withdrawal you're already in WORSE.

 

Updose until stable (even if you have to go up to 10mg again). HOLD for 4 weeks and then proceed by reducing no more than 0.5mg every 4 weeks. After a cut, do not reduce again until the symptoms from the previous cut have leveled off. This is how you come off properly.

 

If you just "get the drug out of your system" you will suffer....and for God only knows how long. You also set yourself up for protracted withdrawal. Not good.

 

If you listen to your body, IT WILL TELL YOU what to do. Right now it's tell you that you reduced TOO MUCH, TOO FAST.

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You need to updose until feeling better...(maybe all the way back up to 10, your body will tell you) and then HOLD for 4 weeks to allow the Valium to build up in your system.

 

You can updose in 2mg increments every few days - do not updose any slower than that or tolerance will just follow you up.

 

Withdrawal symptoms are a result of reducing the drug faster than your body can repair. Cutting again while in bad withdrawal will just make the withdrawal you're already in WORSE.

 

Updose until stable (even if you have to go up to 10mg again). HOLD for 4 weeks and then proceed by reducing no more than 0.5mg every 4 weeks. After a cut, do not reduce again until the symptoms from the previous cut have leveled off. This is how you come off properly.

 

If you just "get the drug out of your system" you will suffer....and for God only knows how long. You also set yourself up for protracted withdrawal. Not good.

 

If you listen to your body, IT WILL TELL YOU what to do. Right now it's tell you that you reduced TOO MUCH, TOO FAST.

 

Hello elocin,

 

No matter how strongly you feel about how a member is approaching his or her taper, it is important to follow the rules of the forum in terms of posting in an authoritative and prescriptive manner.  It is fine, as you know, to give your personal opinion. This would be worded as "if it were me" or " in my opinion", but your post is telling this member in no uncertain terms what he or she should do.  Please refrain from this.  Below is referenced the forum policy concerning prescriptive writing.

 

pianogirl

 

•Please adopt a non-prescriptive writing style. Relating your experiences, stating options, or posting suggestions of what other members might do are all welcome. However, advising members of what they should or must do is against the ethos of the BenzoBuddies Community. Nor should you attempt to 'diagnose' medical problems or suggest medical treatments for other members. This policy also applies to members with medical qualifications. A more detailed explanation of this policy can be found in our Guidelines Regarding the Giving of Medical Advice document.

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[43...]

This forum is a ridiculous joke that is why most people find other avenues of help where they can be guided properly by someone.

 

 

As an edit to my above post to satisfy the anal rules of this forum...IF IT WERE ME....I would do what I wrote.

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Like benzy says, the Ashton manual says to avoid updosing and hold until you feel ready to cut again. You are apt to have some symptoms as you go down, but it sounds like you are doing really well with your taper, overall!
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This forum is a ridiculous joke that is why most people find other avenues of help where they can be guided properly by someone.

 

 

As an edit to my above post to satisfy the anal rules of this forum...IF IT WERE ME....I would do what I wrote.

 

You were not guiding as much as you were ordering this member. This forum has helped many people successfully withdraw from benzos,  I think you do know this elocin.

 

pianogirl

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Hi there,

 

I have updosed a few times during my taper. The last time,  three weeks after a cut  I had not stabilized. Which was very unusual for me. Then I had a really big personal stressor in my life that set off a week of severe insomnia. I decided it was time to updose back up to the last cut. Because I had let it go  weeks before updosing it took a good 3 weeks before my symptoms stabilized again. The other few times I updosed I did it a few days after a cut so i stabilized very quickly. This time it had to acumulate back up into my system.

 

Maybe just give it some time. Even though you have updosed, remember that  it is still a change in medication dosage. And it seems from your posts that you actually updosed twice in a short period of time . This is two changes and even if it is going back, it is still a change and your nervous system is super sensitive to change right now.. So if it were me I would just hold it out and give it a few weeks at I believe 5mg? you said.  ANd then resume my taper at a nice and slow pace. Continue to listen to your body, I am confident you will get there! Keep the faith! alabama.xo

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This forum is a ridiculous joke that is why most people find other avenues of help where they can be guided properly by someone.

 

 

As an edit to my above post to satisfy the anal rules of this forum...IF IT WERE ME....I would do what I wrote.

 

I can promise that "most people" (we have thousands of members and hundreds on the forum each day) are very satisfied with the help they are getting here. Granted, there are those for whom online forum support isn't helpful but certainly for "most" who are members here, there is help to be had.  :)

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This is what Dr. Ashton has to say about reinstatement. Maybe this will help.

 

Reinstatement, updosing

 

A dilemma faced by some people in the process of benzodiazepine withdrawal, or after withdrawal, is what to do if they have intolerable symptoms which do not lessen after many weeks. If they are still taking benzodiazepines, should they increase the dose? If they have already withdrawn, should they reinstate benzodiazepines and start the withdrawal process again? This is a difficult situation which, like all benzodiazepine problems, depends to some degree on the circumstances and the individual, and there are no hard and fast rules.

 

Reinstatement after withdrawal? Many benzodiazepine users who find themselves in this position have withdrawn too quickly; some have undergone 'cold turkey'. They think that if they go back on benzodiazepines and start over again on a slower schedule they will be more successful. Unfortunately, things are not so simple. For reasons that are not clear, (but perhaps because the original experience of withdrawal has already sensitised the nervous system and heightened the level of anxiety) the original benzodiazepine dose often does not work the second time round. Some may find that only a higher dose partially alleviates their symptoms, and then they still have to go through a long withdrawal process again, which again may not be symptom-free.

 

Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system.

 

Pharmacologically, neither reinstating nor updosing is really rational. If withdrawal symptoms are still present, it means that the GABA/benzodiazepine receptors have not fully recovered (see above). Further benzodiazepines cause further down-regulation, strengthen the dependence, prolong withdrawal, delay recovery and may lead to protracted symptoms. In general, the longer the person remains on benzodiazepines the more difficult it is to withdraw. On the whole, anyone who remained benzodiazepine-free, or has remained on the same dose, for a number of weeks or months would be ill-advised to start again or to increase dosage. It would be better to devote the brain to solving individual symptoms and to finding sources of advice and support. Advice about how to deal with individual symptoms is given in the Manual (Chapter 3).

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ya,,, that...

 

basically Ashton says you're just going backwards is all...

but iit can end up causing other problems, more or less due to confusing your system even more, slow and steady is best....

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According to Ashton then . . .

 

Pharmacologically, neither reinstating nor updosing is really rational. If withdrawal symptoms are still present, it means that the GABA/benzodiazepine receptors have not fully recovered (see above). Further benzodiazepines cause further down-regulation, strengthen the dependence, prolong withdrawal, delay recovery and may lead to protracted symptoms. In general, the longer the person remains on benzodiazepines the more difficult it is to withdraw. On the whole, anyone who remained benzodiazepine-free, or has remained on the same dose, for a number of weeks or months would be ill-advised to start again or to increase dosage

 

. . . we're screwed if we updose.

 

But the conventional wisdom on this BB *seems to be* when you get in trouble that holding alone doesn't fix, to updose to the place you last felt well, hold until you DO feel well, then re-commence tapering.

 

I'm confused.

 

Okatz

 

 

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While professor Ashton is an expert in the field she is not the absolute all mighty authority,. You are the authority on your own body. Her manual is a guideline and should be treated as such. You need to balance what the manual says, with how you feel and your instinct. There are no hard and fast rules in withdrawal and she would be the first person to say that. In fact she does say it in the manual many times over.  For example, she says that a couple of glasses of alcohol are fine in w/d ...yet some people have horrible reactions to alcohol...does that mean that they should ignore their inner voice and physical reactions and drink anyway? Of course not. 

 

Also it is important to note that in general, stabilize, does not mean the absence of symptoms. It is when symptoms become tolerable enough to cut again. Sometimes we become so debilitated with symptoms we cannot continue cutting and need a break/hold or a small tiny updose. Just until we are strong enough to continue tapering again. If you are looking for the absence of symptoms that probably(I am sure there are  a few exceptions to this ) will not happen. 

In the middle of my taper \I held for 4 months. My symptoms did not go away but they became tolerable and I just took a nice long break to get the confidence to keep going. That was not bb wisdom or ashton wisdom it was my own wisdom. It is what I needed to do personally. And I do not regret it one bit.

 

I am still tapering...4 weeks to go. And I am in college again getting straight A's. This time last year I could not read a book. Now my cognitive functioning is great . My physical symptoms are problematic still but my depression and chronic fatigue are gone.  Go at your own pace. This is not a race.

 

Keep going and keep up the great work! You can do it! Alabama. xo

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While professor Ashton is an expert in the field she is not the absolute all mighty authority,. You are the authority on your own body. Her manual is a guideline and should be treated as such. You need to balance what the manual says, with how you feel and your instinct. There are no hard and fast rules in withdrawal and she would be the first person to say that. In fact she does say it in the manual many times over.  For example, she says that a couple of glasses of alcohol are fine in w/d ...yet some people have horrible reactions to alcohol...does that mean that they should ignore their inner voice and physical reactions and drink anyway? Of course not. 

 

Also it is important to note that in general, stabilize, does not mean the absence of symptoms. It is when symptoms become tolerable enough to cut again. Sometimes we become so debilitated with symptoms we cannot continue cutting and need a break/hold or a small tiny updose. Just until we are strong enough to continue tapering again. If you are looking for the absence of symptoms that probably(I am sure there are definitely many exceptions to this ) will not happen.

 

Keep going and keep up the great work! You can do it! Alabama. xo

 

Great post, Bama. Well said.

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to elaborate.... because of my pre-existing mental issues, I HAVE to be anal about it, I have to stick strictly with Ashton, if I consider any loopholes or open doors and consider using them, Im screwed...... dont know if ya'll can understand what Im saying....

 

I have to keep my mind simple and straight, or I wont get there...

 

So, I only go by Ashtons Manual, nothing else..... I figure you cant go wrong doing that, it might not be the absolute smoothest way I could have done it, but it works if ya work it.....

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Complex, isn't it, deciding what to do, and no less complex when you ask on a forum! Thanks for all on this thread for the things that have helped for you, and for the collective wisdom and expertise. Some of the posts don't agree with each other, which is probably more a reflection of how different our experiences are, how differently we perceive those experiences and how hard and fast rules just won't apply to all.  There are, however, some common threads of wisdom often gained from suffering present and past. I particularly appreciate the expertise of the "ol' timers" who have helped lots of folk along the journey.

 

I'm going to stay put at 5mg and be patient with the sx. It's a reasonable place to sit given my history these past 6 months, and its time to pick a sensible spot and stay there letting my body adjust. Today is a better day and I'm thinking more clearly and less anxiously about where I'm at. A month of the current dose, a positive attitude towards my situation and every good non-pharma strategy I can use (exercise, sleep hygiene, teetotal, self-care etc). No further questioning things too often or wallowing in the pit of "I'm stuck forever" despair. As many on here have encouraged me, I can and will get to a good place, get very slowly off this stuff and live a life wiser for the experience.

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Hey glad you are feeling better :)

 

Yea if it were me I'd stick at 5mg for at least a few weeks to get the Valium really building up in your system. If you aren't well in 6-8 weeks it might be worth having a go at Diaze-pam's reverse taper idea. Slowly going up by small amounts till you really feel better.

 

Sure Prof Ashton is an expert in her field but she hasn't had to live with Benzo withdrawal. For a lot of us we'd rather spend the time tapering then feeling the pain of the s/x. That means occasionally up-dosing for many of us. Ashton seems to assume benzo w/d is going to be painful no matter what. But many buddies have found they can stay kinda sorta stable - without much sx - if they start at stable and try to stay there. Staying in withdrawal often means keeping in withdrawal. But time/hold and/or updose should get you to a place that means you can continue your taper in a way that doesn't hurt so much.

 

There are lots of Valium taperers on the Valium support thread in the support groups thread. They are the go slow and up-dose variety of BB members by and large but they are a good group with a lot of collective knowledge

 

Good luck and Peace

Smiff

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Beautifully written Bolders! And such great insight into your current state. I am sure you are going to do just fine. That panic of 'am I going to be stuck like this forever' during withdrawal truly is the mother of them all. That thought needs a lot of fighting with! It took me a long time  to conquer that one. 

 

It sounds like you made the best decision for you. Keep up the great work and I look forward to reading your success story in the future. Alabama.

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I agree :)

Your post does show a lot of insight and common sense. You'll do just fine and you will get to where you don't feel you are stuck here forever anymore. Let us know when you do :)

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