Valium/Diazepam Support Group

I hope this post does not bum anyone out, but I thought it might help those feeling crummy right now and offer a bit of perspective;

 

A month ago, one of my close work buddies had to take his wife who is in her early 30s, to the emergency room where she tested positive for having a heart attack.  They discovered a defective heart valve and put in a stint.  After two days she was recovering so rapidly they decided to release her.  That same day, she had a blood vessel burst in her brain that caused her to slip into a coma.  The doctors had to drill two holes in her head to allow the blood to escape because the pressure on her brain was so great.  She remained in a coma until just a few days ago.  She is improving very slowly, but will spend probably the next six months in various types of therapy to learn how to function again as she did suffer brain injury that has affected her memory, speech, and motor function. 

 

It is this type of tragedy that reminds me that even though what I am going through with this benzo tapering mess is pretty miserable at times, it could be so much worse.  This man has had his entire world yanked out from under him and he is the most positive person I have ever witnessed as he goes through this.

 

I will take inspiration from him and try to remind myself of the positive and the good things in life and how fortunate I actually am in so many ways.  This will one day soon be over for me and when it is, I truly believe I will come out on the other side a better person than the one I was going in.

 

May we all stay strong and positive during this journey to zero

 

Wow - that's so tragic and she is so young!! Makes you put things into perspective doesn't it. I hope things keep improving for her.

Bart,

 

As per my PM here are my questions since I am doing the most ridiculously slow taper similar to yours  :

 

What were your cuts under 0.1mg and under 0.01mg?  How often did you cut at this stage?  Every day or every few days or so? 

 

Did you hold at these stages and for how long was each hold usually? 

 

What about the 10% rule?  How did that work for you under 0.1mgs?

 

Did you end the taper at 0.001mg? 

 

About the "fumes" – did you dose once a day and then every two days, then every three??  How many days did you leave between doses at the end and how long did you do the "fumes method" for? 

 

You said in previous posts that the last few months of your taper, you had no symptoms to speak of – under what dose did you feel they faded away? 

 

Thanks,

 

gts 

 

Hi to everyone on this thread - I am a lurker and an extremely slow taperer.  I will post more and introduce myself properly (to all the new faces here!) when it's not midnight in the UK!

 

Hi gts

Got your PM. Nice to hear from you.  In answer to your questions, my lowest cut rate was .0025 but by the time I hit .01 I had been doing so many 1-2 week holds that my taper was really more of a cut and hold and had been  so for a few months. Under .01 my typical hold was 2 weeks and the longest I ever held was 17 days. You can get an idea of this from my sig line (sorry I don't have my log book in front of me and I'm doing this from memory). When I went from a .005 to a .0025 cut rate I would typically cut every day at this rate and as soon as I felt any kind of significant symptom I would just hold for a week or two until I was sure I was fine. I also threw in a few 1 week holds when I was asymptomatic. There were also some mini updoses if I ever had more than questionable symptoms. I did not use the 10% rule at these very low doses. I did my last official cut to 0 around Oct 1. The "fumes" were because I used a liquid titration with Ora-Plus and drew up my dose with an oral syringe. There will be a small amount of liquid on the outside of the syringe and I was putting the whole syringe in my mouth and getting a bit from the outside as well. So I just stuck my 1ml oral syringe part way into my solution and licked the outside twice a day for 2-3 weeks, then once a day for 2-3 weeks, then once every other day, etc. When I was at once every 3 days I decided that this method was not very scientific (i.e. dumb) and went to 1 drop per day. My solution by this time was old and I had moved it out of my refrigerator to my bathroom hoping for a little more degradation. Assuming everything was at full strength, one drop of my mix would be around .0007mg, give or take. I had 2 weeks of vacation over the holidays and we were planning a big scuba dive trip a long ways from home. Unfortunately, we had to schedule to a later date, so we decided to just stay home and do some small ski trips as well as "hang out". If I had done the dive trip I would have stayed on the drop per day over the holidays, but decided this would be a good time to stop fuming which I did on Dec 20. I had been taking 1 drop per day for 9 or 10 days. I've posted the mathematical reasons elsewhere for ending a taper gradually, though most people will probably be able to it a lot quicker than I did. Besides the biology of it, I had personal reasons for trying to taper with minimal symptoms. I have a fairly busy job with some times of stress. Also, my wife has a severe case of early onset Parkinson's disease which she acquired in her 40's, like Michael J. Fox, only worse. This means that I also have caretaking and single parenting duties at home with our kids. It was imperative that I remain up to speed during my taper. At any rate, I felt fine at the end of the taper and we spent the holidays skiing and indulging in a few "vices" (etoh, junk food, chocolate, etc). I felt some transient D/R 3-4 times mostly in stores, but that was it. 

 

I think it is best to simply taper however it works best for you and be sure and never force yourself to follow anybody else's schedule. Unfortunately, my healing rate was slow and I also pulled out all the stops to ensure a soft landing. In hindsight I probably could have done the last few months a little faster, but then it seems too slow is preferable to too fast.

 

Hope this helps

 

Bart

 

Hey Bart,

 

Thanks so much for this - it's pretty much the same as I am doing - really appreciate you taking the trouble to post such detail 

 

Great to hear you are doing so well also 

 

gts

IMO Watch out for activities that make you sweat excessively. I fell asleep in the pool in the sun for about 1/2 an hour and sweat like crazy like being in a sauna and paid for that for about a week. Same thing cutting the grass in very hot conditions.

 

 

I've done hot yoga all through my taper. I'm more sick when I'm not doing it. But I don't recommend others take it up during a taper. I was doing it for a long time before the taper. The only time it becomes problematic - and this is important for all women tapering - is when I do it every single day for an extended period (keeping in mind this is a big cardio workout and anaerobic and goes for 1hour 30mins). When women exercise a lot consistently their oestrogen levels drop and testosterone goes up. Women can bring on early menopause if they are particularly active. So I'd suggest to any woman tapering to try to stay out of the level of exercise - and it is pretty hardcore - that gets you to the zone where your oestrogen levels are getting low. Low oestrogen and benzo w/d are not friends.

 

Hi Smiff,

 

I read this post with great interest.  Can you explain more about the connection between low oestrogen and strenuous exercise?

 

I took up running a few months ago as I was feeling so much better under 1mg Diazepam.  However, around about the same time, I started having even worse problems with severe anxiety (my main w/d symptom) around mid and end of my cycle.  I never thought that the exercise could be connected. 

 

The main reason I am still tapering and not off Diazepam yet is that, although almost symptom free a lot of the time now, hormonal fluctuations kick of a severe relapse of the w/d symptoms (anxiety and "mind bending") so that for the best part of two weeks every month, I am forced to hold.

 

Interested to know more about hormones and if there is anything I can do to ease this.

 

gts

gts

Ya, there seems to be a lot of individual variation  in this benzo tapering business, but the overriding principles are the same. Just taper at whatever rate and with whatever method fits you. IMO, people are more likely to go too fast than too slow due to the psychological desire to "get it over with". I may have been one of the oddballs who went too slow, but it worked out.  Don't be afraid to try things. I thought of myself as Dr. Bart, the Lab Rat. The long time involved in tapering and healing after the taper is over really sucks, but I think that  in the end, we all heal with very few exceptions, however we do it.

Bart

 

Smiff wrote:  You may have been in tolerance w/d for a while hence the anxiety that nothing was fixing. Until then I'm not sure there is much point trying to taper the valium alone: you'll just end up being in benzo w/d, but still using - with the serax - which is never going to end well or help you settle post SSRI withdrawal.

 

Concerned wrote:  Wisernow, I think stabilizing on the SSRI is a priority so you can feel better. Once you do, you can tackle the valium, Serax taper. They are both a benzo so it is easier to crossover to valium from Serax and split the doses during the taper. You just need to determine the equivalency. For now, I would focus on the AD so you can feel better, stay on that and then move to the benzo taper. it is up to you as to what order you do it in however each one needs to be addressed separately for sure.

 

thank you for your replies....  Biggest problem is reinstating an SSRI.  Not sure I'm physically up to getting back on to an SSRI.    I know what has to be done but am a bit like a deer in the headlights.    Transfixed with indecision.    I totally understand the advice but I my problem is getting on to an SSRI which seems like trying to scale Mt Everest at the moment.    Can't believe how helpful everyone here is.   

::::Until then I'm not sure there is much point trying to taper the valium alone: you'll just end up being in benzo w/d, but still using - with the serax - which is never going to end well

 

Smiff,  sorry for the delay in questioning this but what do you mean by this?  Especially the bit about it's never going to end well.  I have been cutting back the valium to a 1/4 of 2mgs as of yesterday and thinking the Serax at night helps to cover up too much of the w/d from valium.    Couldn't that be true?   

Since we are on the topic of suffering, I found this article very insightful:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/opinion/sunday/the-value-of-suffering.html?_r=0

Wisernow:

 

you don't have to reinstate the SSRI if you don't feel comfortable. You could sit it out. It will pass and fortunately quicker then benzo w/d.

 

As for tapering the valium whilst still planning on using the serax: you can do that. It may not be  a problem. I guess I thought once you start withdrawing benzos it is better to start and finish the job so you aren't overly sensitised to your continued use. But, it is just a thought and not necessarily true. A lot of people can taper a bit then stop tapering for ages and so on.

 

Peace

Smiff

Hi Everyone,

    I've been quiet...lurking and reading the good support here. I'm with you on the slow V taper. Today marks 7 months off Xanax!! I am at a dose of .98 mg V per day. I learned the hard way and you encouraged me to SLOW down with the taper. After a long hold I am now cutting .005 mg per day. Hoping for smoother ride after a hair raising detour.

  Thanks for your words of wisdom....lets walk slowly together!

Warmly,

Carita

 

 

Well done !!  Good to hear you've smashed the 1mg barrier.

 

Thanks DP...slowly making progress! Feeling the healing!

Appreciate your encouragement,

Carita

IMO Watch out for activities that make you sweat excessively. I fell asleep in the pool in the sun for about 1/2 an hour and sweat like crazy like being in a sauna and paid for that for about a week. Same thing cutting the grass in very hot conditions.

 

 

I've done hot yoga all through my taper. I'm more sick when I'm not doing it. But I don't recommend others take it up during a taper. I was doing it for a long time before the taper. The only time it becomes problematic - and this is important for all women tapering - is when I do it every single day for an extended period (keeping in mind this is a big cardio workout and anaerobic and goes for 1hour 30mins). When women exercise a lot consistently their oestrogen levels drop and testosterone goes up. Women can bring on early menopause if they are particularly active. So I'd suggest to any woman tapering to try to stay out of the level of exercise - and it is pretty hardcore - that gets you to the zone where your oestrogen levels are getting low. Low oestrogen and benzo w/d are not friends.

 

Hi Smiff,

 

I read this post with great interest.  Can you explain more about the connection between low oestrogen and strenuous exercise?

 

I took up running a few months ago as I was feeling so much better under 1mg Diazepam.  However, around about the same time, I started having even worse problems with severe anxiety (my main w/d symptom) around mid and end of my cycle.  I never thought that the exercise could be connected. 

 

The main reason I am still tapering and not off Diazepam yet is that, although almost symptom free a lot of the time now, hormonal fluctuations kick of a severe relapse of the w/d symptoms (anxiety and "mind bending") so that for the best part of two weeks every month, I am forced to hold.

 

Interested to know more about hormones and if there is anything I can do to ease this.

 

gts

 

Hey Gettingthere

 

I'm afraid I don't know much about the connection between progesterone, oestrogen and exercise. I was just reading an article a few days ago that was talking about how excessive exercise can bring on early menopause. And of course there is a well known phenomenon where female athletes can stop getting periods partly because of low body fat but also because of lower levels of progesterone and oestrogen.

 

I'm no endocrinologist, and I don't have any papers to cite, so I can't say anything with any surety. In my case however, if I exercise intensely I do have worse s/x around those times of the menstrual cycle you are talking about. And those s/x are relieved by oestrogen HRT. I'm not menopausal. I'm not even sure I was peri-menopausal. But when I spoke to my Dr about worsening s/x during those times she suggested very low dose oestrogen HRT. It certainly does work. At times I've worried about using it but I have given myself more fake hormones for the years I was on the pill and plenty more real ones during pregnancies. This might be an avenue for you to explore to keep you being able to taper during those 2 weeks. I think you'll find once you are off the V you'll be able to slowly wean off the extra oestrogen also. The other thing that oestrogen levels are the B Vitamins. They can rev some people up but I was able to cut out oestrogen patches and/or have lower doses by using B vitamins. Of course they aren't without their problems either but it is another option open to you.

 

In any case I believe exercise does us more good than bad. I think quite a lot of exercise has to be done to have a big impact on lowering our hormones, but again I'm no expert. It is very common to have worsening s/x pre-menstrual and during menstrual regardless of the amount of exercise done. Low levels of oestrogen in particular for whatever reason is just not good for benzo w/d.

 

Hope that helps

Peace

Smiff

Hi Everyone,

    I've been quiet...lurking and reading the good support here. I'm with you on the slow V taper. Today marks 7 months off Xanax!! I am at a dose of .98 mg V per day. I learned the hard way and you encouraged me to SLOW down with the taper. After a long hold I am now cutting .005 mg per day. Hoping for smoother ride after a hair raising detour.

  Thanks for your words of wisdom....lets walk slowly together!

Warmly,

Carita

 

 

Well done !!  Good to hear you've smashed the 1mg barrier.

 

Thanks DP...slowly making progress! Feeling the healing!

Appreciate your encouragement,

Carita

 

There is your fourth below-1mg-V Spice Girl DP.

Congratulations Carita and everyone who has made it to where they are now.

Not long now. I can't say how pleased I'll be for you when you are finally free of this.

love

Smiff

Thank you Smiff...won't it be wonderful when we can claim free from benzos! I am so glad to have such lovely supportive company on this path.

Best to you,

Carita

Hello everyone.

 

Hope your day is going as well as it can, been keeping a close eye on this thread, I have started my taper yet and am still deciding how to tackle it in terms off how many times per day/dose etc. My question is a lot of people are doing micro tapers which I just cant seem to get my head around. I am on 30mg daily spilt in morning/afternoon/night with doses of 10mg. Have most of you dry cut tablets (am still trying to get my head around the maths of trying to cut the 5mg tablets) how much success have people had dry cutting and also how do you know when withdrawal symptoms are due too bad and should switch to a micro taper. I think I have hit tolerance pretty bad and seeing a neuro this month although hopefully will not throw up  anything abnormal. Not sure whether I should post symptoms here so will not at the moment. I know its a somewhat difficult question to ask I am just trying to get as much information/facts as possible. Thanks in advance

Gra - IMO beginning your taper without getting stable could be setting yourself up for a rough ride. Did you consider splitting your dose further. I still think splitting to 6x daily is a good plan. A few people in tolerance have reported feeling better after beginning their tapers but very few. Usually being in tolerance requires some change like splitting dose, updosing to a stable dose, changing time of day of dosing, switching to a different Benzo ( I don't see this as an option for you). I hit tolerance on Clonazepam at .5mg 2x daily and Serax at 15mg at night and when I crossed over to Valium, twice actually, I got stable enough to go down. You have stated that you have life responsibilities to keep up so a crazy symptom filled taper is not going to work for you.

Maybe someone else has some ideas for you but as I said your situation is sort of unique as you are direct tapering valium.

etown

Or maybe ....

Colorado Chick at .62, Diaz-Pam at .65, Eliz at .64 (and still holding) can be a trio of snails  :laugh:

 

As long as we don't try to race each other to the finish line I think we will be OK.

 

We just need to two more chicks and we can be the "Spice Girls".

 

Yo, I'll tell ya what I want, what I really, really want.... to be benzo freeeeeee..... ZIGAZIG AH!!!

 

Hilarious!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Carita,

Welcome to the "Under 1 club" 

Getting there slowly is under 1 mg.

 

There is the 5th!

Or maybe ....

Colorado Chick at .62, Diaz-Pam at .65, Eliz at .64 (and still holding) can be a trio of snails  :laugh:

 

As long as we don't try to race each other to the finish line I think we will be OK.

 

We just need to two more chicks and we can be the "Spice Girls".

 

Yo, I'll tell ya what I want, what I really, really want.... to be benzo freeeeeee..... ZIGAZIG AH!!!

 

Hilarious!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh

My mom is under 1mg currently holding at .82.

Can she be in on the spice girls?

Or maybe ....

Colorado Chick at .62, Diaz-Pam at .65, Eliz at .64 (and still holding) can be a trio of snails  :laugh:

 

As long as we don't try to race each other to the finish line I think we will be OK.

 

We just need to two more chicks and we can be the "Spice Girls".

 

Yo, I'll tell ya what I want, what I really, really want.... to be benzo freeeeeee..... ZIGAZIG AH!!!

 

Hilarious!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh

My mom is under 1mg currently holding at .82.

Can she be in on the spice girls?

 

Of course M - the more the merrier!

Hi Gra

 

I agree with E-Town that it is a long way to go if you aren't from somewhere stable. The neuro might put you on some other big GABA hitters and glutamate negators so that might help if you aren't wanting to up-dose the V anymore, which is understandable.

 

If it were me I'd be planning to microtaper at least from 15mgs. But it is individual to everyone. I think microtapering from any place where a cut is really really hard to get out from is a good idea. You can microtaper with dry cutting your tablets. E-Town, and some others, do that using a scale.

Quite a few people use Diaz-pam's liquid method: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97511.msg1248599#msg1248599

Have a read of them. They sound more daunting at first but if you sit down and try to read them there is usually one that seems to make sense.

 

Good luck

Smiff

Thanks Eliz...so glad to be closer to the end! I appreciate the warm welcome.

Carita

Gra - IMO beginning your taper without getting stable could be setting yourself up for a rough ride. Did you consider splitting your dose further. I still think splitting to 6x daily is a good plan. A few people in tolerance have reported feeling better after beginning their tapers but very few. Usually being in tolerance requires some change like splitting dose, updosing to a stable dose, changing time of day of dosing, switching to a different Benzo ( I don't see this as an option for you). I hit tolerance on Clonazepam at .5mg 2x daily and Serax at 15mg at night and when I crossed over to Valium, twice actually, I got stable enough to go down. You have stated that you have life responsibilities to keep up so a crazy symptom filled taper is not going to work for you.

Maybe someone else has some ideas for you but as I said your situation is sort of unique as you are direct tapering valium.

etown

 

etown, when you say stable, do you mean totally sx free? Or do you mean just functional w/ manageable sx?

JJ I use the 80/20 rule. 80 good and 20% tolerable. That to me is stable. Also from a  symptom standpoint, I feel the physical symptoms for me are tolerable. Its when the mental symptoms like fear, anxiety, dp etc get going that I call that unstable for me.

etown

Thanks etown, that's what I thought from your previous posts. I'm still getting glutamate storms an hour or two before my next dose. I have physical symptoms as well, but as someone who has been in chronic pain for years, I can deal with those. The anxiety though, that's rough. I'm really hoping that once I've crossed over the anxiety piece will settle out a little. 

etown thanks for the 80/20 distinction. Something to think about.

 

If I can ask, what are your physical symptoms?

 

Okatz