Is it wd, dependence or neuronal damage?

Because benzo withdrawal has symptoms longer than other drugs, I am convinced that it should not be called withdrawal, but repairable brain damage.

Dr's don't understand the months of withdrawal because they don't understand that benzo's damage our neuronal networks.

Maybe if they call it brain damage recovery, people wanting to get off their benzo's could get real help and understanding from the medical communities, instead of being labeled a drug addict?

I agree. How could anyone deny the fact that your brain has been damaged if you are dealing with significant problems after being off of a drug for months or years?  The very definition of damage is "injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness".

If what I am experiencing doesn't qualify as damage, I don't know what would.

This is kind of a touchy subject around here but if we ever want anyone to pay attention to this problem it needs to be acknowledged for what it is.

Having suffered a head injury, I'd have to agree.  The healing follows a similar pattern in that it takes months to years and is not linear.  I have always felt that this was less like a typical drug withdrawal and more like healing damage.

WWWI

I agree. I tell people I am recovering from neural damage caused by a drug rather than say I am withdrawing. The common perception of  withdrawal is a few weeks of flulike symptoms and you are fine...not true in this case.

Thanks for bringing up this topic,

Carita

I agree. I tell people I am recovering from neural damage caused by a drug rather than say I am withdrawing. The common perception of  withdrawal is a few weeks of flulike symptoms and you are fine...not true in this case.

Thanks for bringing up this topic,

Carita

I don't discuss this with a lot of people but when the subject comes up for whatever reason that is exactly what I tell them. It's the truth and it tends to make people pay a little more attention.

in the absence of proof ie structural brain damage that can be detected through brain scans, medicine wont acknowledge this as brain damage. let alone the fact the protracted withdrawal syndrome is not even recognized as a medical condition, so it is not diagnosed by most doctors. moreover, doctors are taught that in the absence of organic proof of illness, the default option is that its a psychological condition. unfortunately its hard to differentiate somatization disorders from physiological disorders when there is no proof, and its common knowledge that anxiety and depression cause aches, pains and cognitive dysfunction. unfortunately its often impossible to convey the message that we can tell the difference between anxiety (which is a common human reaction)  and what we are going through. doctors cant feel the degree and abundance of disturbances thst we experience. its even more likely that the more problems we have in the absence of organic causes, the more it appears we are suffering from mental illness.

we have the worst of both worlds. we are in agony but no one will believe us.

in the absence of proof ie structural brain damage that can be detected through brain scans, medicine wont acknowledge this as brain damage. let alone the fact the protracted withdrawal syndrome is not even recognized as a medical condition, so it is not diagnosed by most doctors. moreover, doctors are taught that in the absence of organic proof of illness, the default option is that its a psychological condition. unfortunately its hard to differentiate somatization disorders from physiological disorders when there is no proof, and its common knowledge that anxiety and depression cause aches, pains and cognitive dysfunction. unfortunately its often impossible to convey the message that we can tell the difference between anxiety (which is a common human reaction)  and what we are going through. doctors cant feel the degree and abundance of disturbances thst we experience. its even more likely that the more problems we have in the absence of organic causes, the more it appears we are suffering from mental illness.

 

we have the worst of both worlds. we are in agony but no one will believe us.

yes, i think so too. what to do about this dilemma? all i can think of is write it out somehow and pass it on. people do that all the time.

This is kind of a touchy subject around here but if we ever want anyone to pay attention to this problem it needs to be acknowledged for what it is.

This is exactly why I brought it up.

I don't want it to scare anyone and the brain can make these repairs given proper nutrition and rest.

However, it needs to be said and everyone needs to know what they are getting into when prescribed psychotropic meds.

All these meds change our brain's chemistry and it takes TIME to get the balance back.

I agree. I tell people I am recovering from neural damage caused by a drug rather than say I am withdrawing. The common perception of  withdrawal is a few weeks of flulike symptoms and you are fine...not true in this case.

Thanks for bringing up this topic,

Carita

You got it right!

in the absence of proof ie structural brain damage that can be detected through brain scans, medicine wont acknowledge this as brain damage. let alone the fact the protracted withdrawal syndrome is not even recognized as a medical condition, so it is not diagnosed by most doctors. moreover, doctors are taught that in the absence of organic proof of illness, the default option is that its a psychological condition. unfortunately its hard to differentiate somatization disorders from physiological disorders when there is no proof, and its common knowledge that anxiety and depression cause aches, pains and cognitive dysfunction. unfortunately its often impossible to convey the message that we can tell the difference between anxiety (which is a common human reaction)  and what we are going through. doctors cant feel the degree and abundance of disturbances thst we experience. its even more likely that the more problems we have in the absence of organic causes, the more it appears we are suffering from mental illness.

 

we have the worst of both worlds. we are in agony but no one will believe us.

Excellent post!

I agree that the term withdrawal should be dropped after a certain period of time off the drug. When serum blood levels of the drug are non existent " withdrawal " is mostly over.

The syndrome with us is that the drug has adversely affected the functionality of certain areas of our brains. True , there is no observable organic brain damage. However , there is damage to the FUNCTION of the GABA  receptors..... Thus functional impairment to the neural transmitter

GABA . When one system in the brain is affected it leads to other systems being affected as well. Ie: dysfunctional seratonin production due to the impairment of the GABA system.

So YES this IS a brain syndrome. Our brains are recovering from the damage these drugs inflict on the brain. And like any other DAMAGE done to the human body , it takes time to recover.

Therefore, most of us are no longer in "withdrawal " anymore. Instead , we are In RECOVERY. we are Recovering from a drug that has functionally damaged our brains . Unfortunately, the time it takes us to recover from this brain assault is dependent on the crap shoot of genetics.

And yes , it would be great if medicine would recognize this particular assault to the brain as a brain syndrome . But it doesn't . Medicine just throws us into the traditional paradigm of drug withdrawal or groups us in with the mentally ill. When, really , this syndrome should have its own distinct diagnosis. A diagnosis recognized with its own ICD -9 code so it could be recognized, legitimized and treated accordingly.

It makes sense to drop the word withdrawal.  What you are saying makes sense.  However, typically when I hear someone say they are in recovery typically means to me that they are in an anonymous program.  And while recovery does literally apply I wonder if there is not another word to use.  Any more for those who are aware of what I'm going through I typically refer to it as "that benzo thing" because I don't have a brief phrase with which to refer to it.

Ideas?

I'm gonna start calling it benzo damage repair.

I have a different take on this; overall I think the media paints a much-too-short picture of drug withdrawal across the board. I've seen people struggle for months with what looks an awful lot like PAWS after cessation of marijuana, which is often regarded as a "no withdrawal" drug. I've certainly seen accounts of many months of W/D (even more than 12) from antidepressants/antipsychotics, and there's a well documented PAWS issue with opiates which can last to nearly benzo timetables for some unfortunate people. Ditto alcohol.

I'm not saying benzos aren't the worst, or among the worst -- the timeframe is clearly longer than opiates or ADs for most people. I don't think it's off by orders of magnitude, though.

Just my two cents.

I have a different take on this; overall I think the media paints a much-too-short picture of drug withdrawal across the board. I've seen people struggle for months with what looks an awful lot like PAWS after cessation of marijuana, which is often regarded as a "no withdrawal" drug. I've certainly seen accounts of many months of W/D (even more than 12) from antidepressants/antipsychotics, and there's a well documented PAWS issue with opiates which can last to nearly benzo timetables for some unfortunate people. Ditto alcohol.

 

I'm not saying benzos aren't the worst, or among the worst -- the timeframe is clearly longer than opiates or ADs for most people. I don't think it's off by orders of magnitude, though.

 

Just my two cents.

I meant to say psychotropics but this is a benzo forum.

All psychiatric meds change the brain chemistry which makes people suffer incapacitation months after cessation in many cases.

I understand what you are saying, but opiates, tobacco, alcohol, etc can cause dependence issues, which are withdrawal issues and do not incapacitate the individual after the first month of withdrawal.

Maybe this happens in rare cases, but I have never known of any.

With other drugs, they just seek the drug to get that high, where with benzo's people don't seek the drug but seek to feel normal again.

The other thing that makes phycotropics worse than drug addiction is that ibogaine or iboga tabernathy can be used to get over withdrawal, but it doesn't work for benzo withdrawal.

With other drugs, they just seek the drug to get that high, where with benzo's people don't seek the drug but seek to feel normal again.

The other thing that makes phycotropics worse than drug addiction is that ibogaine or iboga tabernathy can be used to get over withdrawal, but it doesn't work for benzo withdrawal.

I've got a different view on this, in that I do think other drugs (can) precipitate a very similar, long-term condition that looks a lot like benzo withdrawl. Ibogaine can help with withdrawal from opiates, but I don't know that there's enough data to say much about longer term problems, and I've definitely read some horror stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome

I know wikipedia isn't gospel, but this more or less lines up with my own view:

Post-acute-withdrawal syndrome (PAWS), or the terms post-withdrawal syndrome, protracted withdrawal syndrome, prolonged withdrawal syndromes describe a set of persistent impairments that occur after withdrawal from alcohol, opiates, benzodiazepines, antidepressants and other substances.[1][2][3][4] Infants born to mothers who used substances of dependence during pregnancy may also experience a post acute withdrawal syndrome.[5][6] Post acute withdrawal syndrome affects many aspects of recovery and everyday life, including the ability to keep a job and interact with family and friends. Symptoms occur in over 90% of people withdrawing from a long-term opioid (such as heroin habit)[citation needed], 75% of persons recovering from long-term use of alcohol, methamphetamine, or benzodiazepines and to a lesser degree other psychotropic drugs[citation needed]. Post-acute withdrawal syndrome as a result of GABA-agonist (benzodiazepine, barbiturate, ethanol) dependence and opioid dependence can last from a year to several decades, or indefinitely, with the symptoms entering into periods of relative remission between periods of instability[citation needed]. Symptoms include mood swings resembling an affective disorder, anhedonia (the inability to feel pleasure from anything beyond use of the drug), insomnia, extreme drug craving and obsession, anxiety and panic attacks, depression, suicidal ideation and suicide and general cognitive impairment.

I think the idea that "most relapsing heroin users just want to get high" is a media canard to paste over a very real pantheon of PAWS, social and cultural inequities, relative resource scarcity and problems with the way people are educated. I've known a good number of people withdrawing from or post-withdrawal from (unprescribed) opiates, including the big scarlet-letter Heroin, and my view is that these people have a lot more in common with folks withdrawing from prescription benzos than you might suspect based on typical media presentations of drug addicts. Drug abusers are demonized and stigmatized. Hardcore opiates aren't actually 'euphoric' as I'd describe it, and most of the opiate addicts I've known have not been thrill seekers or hedonists. Instead, they tend to be depressed, come from backgrounds where they did not have much happiness or empathy, and often found relief from crushing anxiety or insecurity in the drugs.

wiki is lumping psychotropics in the same category as alcohol, opiates and other drugs.

I don't agree this at all.

I have never known a drug addict that was incapacitated for more than a month off of their drug, if they didn't go back to them.

I have only seen this with psychotropics, but I don't work in a detox center and am no expert.

I only know people who were drug addicts and detoxed.

Er, can you explain what you mean by 'psychotropic'? The way I've always used that word would apply to benzos, opiates, ADs, etc -- anything that can cross the BBB and affect brain function. I'm not trying to nitpick, just curious to really understand your perspective.

I may have slightly more experience with drug users because of the myriad of paths I've walked, but I have definitely known people who had psychological and physical problems for months or more off of opiates. I have a close family member with no history of substance problems, who used methadone for an extended period of time as a pain control drug for a terrible sickness. This person, now months off, has GI and other problems which look a lot like benzo w/d to me. Another reason this is interesting is that this person used a consistent dose of the methadone daily for a long period of time, which means that their dose pattern was a lot more benzo-like than it was like the way most people use heroin.

I am also not a drug addiction specialist by any means, and I'm quite open to the possibility that my own experience has given me a bias that's not accurate

I agree that the term withdrawal should be dropped after a certain period of time off the drug. When serum blood levels of the drug are non existent " withdrawal " is mostly over.

 

The syndrome with us is that the drug has adversely affected the functionality of certain areas of our brains. True , there is no observable organic brain damage. However , there is damage to the FUNCTION of the GABA  receptors..... Thus functional impairment to the neural transmitter

 

GABA . When one system in the brain is affected it leads to other systems being affected as well. Ie: dysfunctional seratonin production due to the impairment of the GABA system.

 

So YES this IS a brain syndrome. Our brains are recovering from the damage these drugs inflict on the brain. And like any other DAMAGE done to the human body , it takes time to recover.

 

Therefore, most of us are no longer in "withdrawal " anymore. Instead , we are In RECOVERY. we are Recovering from a drug that has functionally damaged our brains . Unfortunately, the time it takes us to recover from this brain assault is dependent on the crap shoot of genetics.

 

And yes , it would be great if medicine would recognize this particular assault to the brain as a brain syndrome . But it doesn't . Medicine just throws us into the traditional paradigm of drug withdrawal or groups us in with the mentally ill. When, really , this syndrome should have its own distinct diagnosis. A diagnosis recognized with its own ICD -9 code so it could be recognized, legitimized and treated accordingly.

i agree this to be a brain syndrome that i am recovering from.

Er, can you explain what you mean by 'psychotropic'? The way I've always used that word would apply to benzos, opiates, ADs, etc -- anything that can cross the BBB and affect brain function. I'm not trying to nitpick, just curious to really understand your perspective.

 

I may have slightly more experience with drug users because of the myriad of paths I've walked, but I have definitely known people who had psychological and physical problems for months or more off of opiates. I have a close family member with no history of substance problems, who used methadone for an extended period of time as a pain control drug for a terrible sickness. This person, now months off, has GI and other problems which look a lot like benzo w/d to me. Another reason this is interesting is that this person used a consistent dose of the methadone daily for a long period of time, which means that their dose pattern was a lot more benzo-like than it was like the way most people use heroin.

 

I am also not a drug addiction specialist by any means, and I'm quite open to the possibility that my own experience has given me a bias that's not accurate

hi spengler,

yes, u r right about psychotropic medications effecting the cns and seem to include all the other drugs.

I was wrong and probably should have said psychiatric schedule medications.

I'm not saying that opiates, caffeine, tobacco, etc, can't cause permanent physical damage or even brain damage with abuse.

I am only referring to medications taken as prescribed and not those who buck the system and abuse the drugs.

I have heard of people getting off of benzo's without withdrawals, but I don't truly believe it.

I could definitely, be wrong, but benzo withdrawal shouldn't be called withdrawal because it lasts way too long to be addiction withdrawal.

I believe it should be called something else without the word "withdrawal" in it because that has connotations that make people think it is drug addiction or abuse.