Second Time Around - Need Klonopin Liquid Titration assistance please

Hi old and new friends,

Beginning my liquid titration from Klonopin.  This is my second time around the block and I have much more trepidation this time. . .

Would you please look at my plan and make any suggestions?  Am I making this too difficult? 

Current Daily Dose:  2 mg K -    0.25 mg AM  -  0.25 mg afternoon  -  1.5 mg Bed

Titration Plan:

(1)  2 mg in 250 cc of liquid to create a Klonopin suspension (I will be using almond milk which is 2.5 grams fat per 8 oz - can I use water?).  Use a 60 cc syringe to measure out the almond milk (can I use a 250 cc graudated cyclinder?)

(2)  Remove 1 additional cc every 3 days from the Klonopin suspension (This makes for a 24 month +/- taper subject to holds, etc)

(3) Prepare multiple doses from the drug suspension with the correct reduction - use various methods (?) such as stirring to and fro, shaking to keep drug suspended properly.  Additionally, make sure to add additional almond milk (or water?) to ensure that the drug is not "lost" when transferring to multiple containers. Label bottles according to "AM dose"  "PM dose"  "Night time dose" to ensure that the appropriate dose is taken.

(4) Keep a diary of each daily dose and reduction

(5) Prepare Excel spreadsheet from benzosupport.org to track current dose and rate of reduction.

(5) Monitor symptoms and proceed accordingly

Process:

Klonopin Suspension - Divide in two bottles - each now contains 1 mg of suspension

Divide one of the 1 mg suspension bottles into 2 smaller containers - each now contains 0.5 mg. suspension

Divide one of the 0.5 mg suspension bottles into 2 smaller containers - each now contains 0.25 mg. suspension.

Label bottle(s) as "AM dose"    "PM dose"    "Nighttime Dose" to avoid confusion.

~~

Any comments, suggestions, ideas would be most appreciated.

Thank you very much.  Klonkers

Hi Klonkers,

I have a few comments for you to consider...

Milk - I would not use almond milk.  Use whole homogenized milk.  I don't know for a fact that the fat in almond milk will not work, but I do know that whole milk will work.  Homogenization is also important.  It is a proven method you can rely on.  Do not use water.  The klonopin will not dissolve in water.  Very important - with milk the klonopin is not "suspended", it is truly "dissolving".  So you do not need to worry about it being evenly spread around. 

Dosing - I'd even out your doses.  If you dose three a day I'd try to dose as close to every eight hours as possible.  Take the klon-milk in your main mix jar and split it into three dose jars and "eyeball" them even.  That will be good enough.  Some people do sometimes dose more at bedtime, as they feel it helps them sleep.  My sleep improved by dosing evenly, so there is perhaps an individual thing there to experiment with.

Cut - 2mg in 250ml (you said cc...that will cause confusion as most people here use ml...fortunately a cc equals an ml    ).  This is a .008mg/ml solution.  While you may be able to cut at 1ml every three days or even higher, it is a bit of an aggressive place to start.  At your dose I'd encourage you to consider starting by removing .001mg klonopin per day (which is .125ml each day) and give it a try for two weeks.  If all goes well, begin an upward search for your best cut by increasing to .0015mg.  Give that a two week trial.  Keep repeating this until you find a cut that seems to increase symptoms, then back off to the previous cut.  That is your best cut.

Another minor change is to put the 2mg klonopin in 200ml milk instead of 250ml, just to keep the math simple.  Each ml will contain .01mg klonopin...just an easier number to work with.

Good job getting this worked out ahead of time. 

Dear SG57,

Thank you so much for your comments and recommendations. 

I will switch to whole milk.  I believe the rationale for this is that Klonopin binds to fat?  I really dislike the taste of milk.  Are there any other options?

OK.  I can see how making a .01mg/ml solution by creating a solution of 2 mg of K in 200 ml would make the math easier.  Thank you!

Any ideas of how to dose in 3 equal doses every 8 hours?  I destabilized by simply switching between 2 to 3 doses a day.  When I removed 0.25 mg from the night dose (1.5 mg) I got very sick.  In order to make 3 doses, I had to split the day dose (0.5 mg) in half and take 0.25 in the 8:30AM and 0.25 at 3:30PM and keep the night dose at 1.5 mg. 

Math Questions: 

OK, so I  have 2 mg in 200 ml of whole milk and this creates a .001mg/ml strength, how do I remove .001 mg?  I assume this is by using a 1 ml oral syringe? 

Can you tell me what the gradations on a 1 ml oral syringe are or is  there a resource tool on BB or elsewhere so that I can understand this?

Can you explain the math (or give me the formula) of how you go up/down in cuts?

Once I find out how to withdraw 0.1 ml per day, I will do this for 2 weeks as you suggested using the 2 mg of K/200 ml of milk concentration.   

Thank you so much, SG for all of your help!  Klonkers

Hi,

You are correct.  The klonopin dissolves in the milk fat.  When milk is homogenized the fat breaks into tiny tiny particles that distribute very evenly in the milk.  This ensures you will get evenly distributed klonopin.  Unfortunately, I am not aware of any other reliable way to make a klonopin liquid.  Not liking milk or having a milk allergy is common.  Perhaps someday someone will validate another liquid which can be used, but until then milk is what we have.

To split your doses evenly start milk dosing and divide the liquid into three even amounts (or any split you decide on!).

Math Questions:

To make an accurate cut get a 1ml oral syringe.  Many local pharmacies give them away for free or you can purchase quality ones on the internet.  BD makes a good syringe for example.  You want the one where the barrel is divided into 100 small lines indicating every .01ml and 10 big lines indicating every .1ml.  They will wear out, so you will need a bunch.

So, when you make a .01mg/ml solution, each ml contains .01mg of klonopin.  So to remove .001mg klonopin, remove .1ml of milk...that's 1/10 of an ml.  So every 10 days you remove one full ml.

The up and down thing is by experience.  .0005mg is a good safe increment to step as you search for a best cut (it is equivalent to .01mg valium).

One other thing...when you switch from dry pills to milk dosing I'd suggest treating that switch as if it were a cut and hold for a while.  Although there seems to be no reason, it more often than not feels like a cut when you switch.  Something to do with absorption I'm sure.

Once you get going this become second nature very quickly!! 

Hi Klonkers,

It's been a while. 

You can use almond milk for this sort of titration. 

I'm not much use when it comes to the math of all of this. Most of our members use a 100 ml cylinder and pull out 1 ml each day. This would make it a 100 day taper. That's about all I know about that. 

Hi Klonkers,

 

It's been a while. 

 

You can use almond milk for this sort of titration. 

 

I'm not much use when it comes to the math of all of this. Most of our members use a 100 ml cylinder and pull out 1 ml each day. This would make it a 100 day taper. That's about all I know about that. 

Hi Hope,

It has been a while, but I am back for a very long haul and it is certainly good to get your message!

Klonkers

 

 

The up and down thing is by experience.  .0005mg is a good safe increment to step as you search for a best cut (it is equivalent to .01mg valium).

 

 

 

Hi SG,

Thank you so much. 

Although the increments are much smaller than a standard titration, the idea is very much the same.  I believe I understand the basic principles.  I hope you don't mind if I ask a question or two in the future once I get my feet wet? 

Klonkers

Ask away!   And there are others around doing klonopin in milk.

Here's the thing.  I've seen people only able to taper at as low as .001mg/day or up to as high as .005mg/day, so the range is quite wide.  And the only way to find where your cut is is to search that range!

Ask away!   And there are others around doing klonopin in milk.

 

Here's the thing.  I've seen people only able to taper at as low as .001mg/day or up to as high as .005mg/day, so the range is quite wide.  And the only way to find where your cut is is to search that range!

Hi SG57,

A few questions if I may concerning milk micro-tapering (as defined by reducing less than 1 ml), if I may?

Just clarifying that a good place to start is .001mg/day x 2 weeks, then increasing to .015mg/day x 2 weeks.  Thereafter, I would be establishing my individual cut rate based on symptoms - returning to the previous cut rate if symptomatic. 

Example of first 2 weeks:

Day            Reduction

1                0.1 ml

2                0.2 ml

3                0.3 ml          and so forth.

If you have any other words of wisdom to pass on, I sure would appreciate it.  Thank you so much!  KL

Can you refresh my memory...how much klonopin?  In how much milk?  Need to know the strength of your milk mix.  Very important to not mix up mg with ml.

But otherwise, you seem to have it down.  If you don't experience any symptom increase over a two week period then that cut is at or below your healing rate and you can nudge up a bit.  I think increments of .0005 are reasonable for klonopin.

Can you refresh my memory...how much klonopin?  In how much milk?  Need to know the strength of your milk mix.  Very important to not mix up mg with ml.

 

But otherwise, you seem to have it down.  If you don't experience any symptom increase over a two week period then that cut is at or below your healing rate and you can nudge up a bit.  I think increments of .0005 are reasonable for klonopin.

 

Hi SG57,

The concentration of my K milk is 2 mg in 200 ml or .01mg/ml.

Questions:

1.  When you say "increments of .0005", I take that to mean .0005 mg?

2.  So my understanding is that each day I progressively remove "x" tenths of an ml until I need to hold and/or reduce the cut rate as shown in my previous post (e.g. Day 1 - 0.1 ml,  Day 2 - 0.2 ml, Day 3 - 0.3 ml, and so on).

3.  What do you believe is the best method for mixing up the milk/drug mixture?  Shaking vigorously for 30 seconds?

Thank you again for your help and assistance!  KL

Ok got it.  .01mg/ml.

1.  Yes, correct.  .0005mg.

2.  So you have a .01mg/ml solution.  A good place to jump in is a cut of .001mg per day.  With your solution this would be .1ml, since each ml contains .01mg.  Each day remove an extra .1ml, so, day 1 remove .1ml, day 2 remove .2ml, and so on.  If this is a good cut for you, you should be able to ride it indefinitely, as your body is able to heal as fast or faster than you are cutting.  You should feel as good or better as you go along.  If you get any symptom increase then hold a day or two and restart.  If you have to keep holding it is a sign that your cut is too big.  This is symptom-based tapering and IMO it should be mainstreamed.  It is really a shame it has not by now. 

3.  I don't think you need to be too aggressive with mixing because the benzo will naturally dissolve and mix into the milk.  Agitate every few hours and let it stand in the fridge. Once you get going you will develop confidence in whatever way you do it. 

Hi Klonkers & SG57,

This is a long overdue post to you both! I just wanted to say Hello & to tell you that THIS particular post here on BB gave me the hope & courage i needed to start my Klonopin taper! I came across it through Google as I was researching -Klonopin Liquid Titration MicroTaper 2mg.

I want to Thank You for posting this Klonkers! I am doing the EXACT same (uneven dosing) taper as you. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one!

And a big Thank You to SG57 for the detailed math explanation & guidance! Your replies to Klonkers really resonated with me- they gave me confidence & the feeling of -Wow! I CAN Really DO this taper!

I started in January & am going very slow...my cut today was 26.12ML out of 200ML. Am still working my way up searching the range to find where my best cut is. I've been removing 0.18 daily the last 2 weeks & think I'm ready to try 0.2 ML (on the 1ML syringe/.002 mg) tomorrow  

At times, it seems like I'll never be off Klonopin at this rate...But, am learning ALOT about PATIENCE w/this Micro taper, LOL!

Again, Thank You both!

Nirvana

Hi Klonkers & SG57,

 

This is a long overdue post to you both! I just wanted to say Hello & to tell you that THIS particular post here on BB gave me the hope & courage i needed to start my Klonopin taper! I came across it through Google as I was researching -Klonopin Liquid Titration MicroTaper 2mg.

 

I want to Thank You for posting this Klonkers! I am doing the EXACT same (uneven dosing) taper as you. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one!

 

And a big Thank You to SG57 for the detailed math explanation & guidance! Your replies to Klonkers really resonated with me- they gave me confidence & the feeling of -Wow! I CAN Really DO this taper!

   

I started in January & am going very slow...my cut today was 26.12ML out of 200ML. Am still working my way up searching the range to find where my best cut is. I've been removing 0.18 daily the last 2 weeks & think I'm ready to try 0.2 ML (on the 1ML syringe/.002 mg) tomorrow  

At times, it seems like I'll never be off Klonopin at this rate...But, am learning ALOT about PATIENCE w/this Micro taper, LOL!

 

Again, Thank You both!

Nirvana

 

Wow!  Thank you for taking the time to post this.  I'm very glad you are doing well.

Search carefully and don't let those symptoms increase and you will be fine.