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Told to maybe post this over here for any insight or help.


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IMO, I would never switch to klonopin because I have seen and read it causing some of the longest lasting symptoms.

Give the valium time because it took my mom a week to get somewhat stable on 6mg valium per day from 1.5mg Lorazepam per day.

After about 3 weeks she was doing very well.

1mg lorazepam is = 10mg Valium.

 

Hiya Mrtmeo.  It seems that Cochese is going in and out of severe withdrawal and getting all sorts of different advice from doctors.  I've seen situations like that in which it's really difficult to get stable.  As diazepam is so slow to build up that it can be very hard to know when a person hits the right dose and there is a chance that severe symptoms may emerge before the diazepam has built up.

 

Perhaps it would be an idea if he went back to Ativan and got stable on that for a month and then does a slow cross over to diazepam (at the sort of cross over rate recommended by Ashton).

 

Hi Braban,

What about using ativan and valium at the same time like the ashton schedules for cross over?

What about lithium?

 

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IMO, I would never switch to klonopin because I have seen and read it causing some of the longest lasting symptoms.

Give the valium time because it took my mom a week to get somewhat stable on 6mg valium per day from 1.5mg Lorazepam per day.

After about 3 weeks she was doing very well.

1mg lorazepam is = 10mg Valium.

 

Hiya Mrtmeo.  It seems that Cochese is going in and out of severe withdrawal and getting all sorts of different advice from doctors.  I've seen situations like that in which it's really difficult to get stable.  As diazepam is so slow to build up that it can be very hard to know when a person hits the right dose and there is a chance that severe symptoms may emerge before the diazepam has built up.

 

Perhaps it would be an idea if he went back to Ativan and got stable on that for a month and then does a slow cross over to diazepam (at the sort of cross over rate recommended by Ashton).

 

Hi Braban,

What about using ativan and valium at the same time like the ashton schedules for cross over?

What about lithium?

 

Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

 

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Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

Hi Braban,

Yes, that makes sense then.

I mentioned lithium only because it is long lasting and wonder if it would be safer than clonazepam.

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Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

Hi Braban,

Yes, that makes sense then.

I mentioned lithium only because it is long lasting and wonder if it would be safer than clonazepam.

Lithium is an antipsychotic, not a benzo.  I think you mean Librium.

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Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

Hi Braban,

Yes, that makes sense then.

I mentioned lithium only because it is long lasting and wonder if it would be safer than clonazepam.

Lithium is an antipsychotic, not a benzo.  I think you mean Librium.

Thanks Julia,

That's the difference I never knew and thought they were the same thing..

 

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Met with the Dr. today and after a brief talk saying he had got my medical records from the Detox Center, we discussed where everything was at this point.

 

I told the truth, not so well. Ativan did better, but took way too much to do so. Valium gave me a brief drowsy state and body limbs would begin to give out, Shake weakly, (Not just a tremor), taste and smell issues always breaking back in, along with Anxiety.

 

He decided on a switch... Klonopin, 1 mg, 3 to 4 times a day. Stay at current 20 mg Paxil dose. (Since I had stopped Months ago. Would start and stop occasionally over the past 14 years.)

 

Asked if I had ever taken Seroquel to which I answered yes. That my other Pdoc had prescribed it at one time for sleep during my Dad's battle with Cancer. 25 mgs. Oh and I sleep alright.

 

Said I could take that if needed for sleep, plus try it in day time some as well to try and keep intrusive thoughts at bay for now. Says most patients he has seen who have such deep high strung Anxiety don't seem to get as sedated. Left that part up to me to try and see how it goes.

 

Haven't started the changes yet. Figured I would begin later this morning when I wake up. Said to remember that this would have to build up a little like Valium in the blood, so give a time before giving up.

 

So later today, New Med regime will be 1 mg of Klonopin 3 to 4 times daily. 20 mg of paxil for now, since only one week getting back on. Optional Seroquel 25 to 50 mg at bedtime, optional 25 mg during the day if tolerated.

 

 

Come back in 2 weeks to evaluate...

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Dang! Already not going well.  :-[

 

Extreme dry mouth, shaking, etc... What a mess I am.  :-[

 

Tapped out on money, cannot go back to Dr. because of this, unlikely he would know what to do anyway, just say gut it out, feeling hopeless to just get stable.

Tolerance is obviously through the roof it seems.

 

Wondering how much more I can deal with...

 

Definately a Different drug. Pulse upon waking is 110. Dry mouth All day long. Cotton mouth. Gonna make a call, but I can't go back at $90. About all I have left for the month. Still have Valium left.

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If you can't find a doctor who will help you just taper yourself and all of us here will help you.  But first you need a doctor to give you the valium.  The doctors say its anxiety so don't fight that issue. Admit it but tell them that your drug of choice is valium.

 

Tell them Xanax and Ativan make you sick but valium doesn't.  Then go to the ashton manual and look how to tAaper off.

 

Peace and Blessings

Snufi

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So later today, New Med regime will be 1 mg of Klonopin 3 to 4 times daily. 20 mg of paxil for now, since only one week getting back on. Optional Seroquel 25 to 50 mg at bedtime, optional 25 mg during the day if tolerated.

 

Hiya Cochese.  Decide on how many doses of Klonopin you are taking each day and stick to it.  It's best not to change between 3 and 4 doses because that's a big change and it can make you more sensitive.

 

Paxil has an unusually short half-life and very many people report withdrawal effects when they stop taking it.  If you are trying to taper benzos then it may be better, once again, not to change the dose of this med.  Keeping a steady dose of Paxil will mean that you do not get additional side effects from Paxil withdrawals. 

 

Paxil is not known to help with benzo withdrawal but you may need it for other reasons.

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The problem with Valium it seems, is that he doesn't seem to want to write over 30 mg. Far from the Ashton method and manual. (I was put on 60 when I entered the Detox Center on 10/29 for 6 mg of Xanax detox.)

 

Ativan has been the best as to me feeling somewhat like my old self, closest to feeling stable, able to eat, etc... Just takes quite a bit.

 

 

So far with Klonopin, it is surely Different. Mouth is pure cotton mouth, coated tongue, Anxiety has Increased, agitation, etc... Like it is doing the reverse or something.

Can't really eat, drinking myself to death with fliuds, yet still dry.

 

I have stuck with 4 mgs so far. 4 yesterday, and on pace for 4 today. (At 3 mg tonight as of 8pm.)

I haven't left the house since beginning this.

 

Yes, the Paxil is for the extreme Anxiety. Been off and on this for the 14 years of being medicated. Had been off through the summer.

 

So far since being pulled out by the ER after 4 days free, Ativan works better, yet I don't think anyone would write the amount needed, at least 10 mgs, for me to stay somewhat the more stable, able to function, and then begin a taper from that.  I just don't think the 30 mgs of Valium was enough according to the Ashton Chart, and the way I felt.

 

Took the 3rd mg of Klonopin at 8pm, and dry mouth is coming back in full force. Nothing to swallow it's so dry. I called today and left word about what was going on. Possible Paradox Reaction? I dunno. (It also does seem depression is worse on this crap.) I called back after 5 hours and he was gone, left a message saying to stay on it and if any troubles I couldn't handle, go to the ER because he wouldn't be back until Monday.

 

I'm tempted to do just that. Another ER trip to explain what has happened since. Sure they will be thrilled if they do anything at all this time. This is depressing as ....

All I have seeking is to get Stable, breathe about a week or 2, then begin a Sensible Taper. Turning out to be harder than I wished, or maybe I picked the wrong doc. I dunno. The dry mouth alone is likely to be enough to send me back to the ER tonight or early morning. Tongue is coated white/blue, and there isn't enough water to help.

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Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

Hi Braban,

Yes, that makes sense then.

I mentioned lithium only because it is long lasting and wonder if it would be safer than clonazepam.

 

 

Just been re-reading my posts throughout this trying to find answers. What worked the best, etc... As what I'm going through now, this reply jumped out at me since it seemed these combo's were by far better than the past 2 days. (At least no extreme dry mouth like this. This is insane.)

 

Also a few warnings about switching to Klonopin. Perhaps I should have listened. Was just trying to find someway to help with a Dr. who seems to want to stay Very low regarding anything.

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Hiya Mrtmeo.  Yes, I did mean using Ativan and Valium at the same time just as Ashton describes. 

I'm not sure where the lithium fits in.

 

Hi Braban,

Yes, that makes sense then.

I mentioned lithium only because it is long lasting and wonder if it would be safer than clonazepam.

 

 

Just been re-reading my posts throughout this trying to find answers. What worked the best, etc... As what I'm going through now, this reply jumped out at me since it seemed these combo's were by far better than the past 2 days. (At least no extreme dry mouth like this. This is insane.)

 

Also a few warnings about switching to Klonopin. Perhaps I should have listened. Was just trying to find someway to help with a Dr. who seems to want to stay Very low regarding anything.

 

Here is a link to Dr Ashton's taper of 6mg xanax cross over to 10mg valium.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s1

 

It is a stepwise cross over from high dose xanax to valium.

You end up on both xanax and valium for a while until u cross over completely to valium.

Of course, you could adjust this to whatever is comfortable for u.

Maybe u could show this schedule to your dr?

 

 

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I agree, that is a great crossover and taper plan.

 

One problem so far, is that most Doctors argue against this Valium equivilant ratio, saying it's 10:1 or less. The other problem is finding a Dr. who will write anything over 30 mg of Valium. (At least my experience so far.)

 

Maybe that is why I had several issues when being pulled out at the ER and given 10 mg of Valium and then a Small script of Ativan. While I was technically Xanax (Benzo) free for 4 days, (maybe more counting the 5 day detox using Valium), that is where the ER Dr. and apparently the new Pdoc want to seem to start. Valium being the last thing I was taking.

 

Yet I was only taking it for 5 days, 60 mg for a day and a half, and then a Very Rapid taper from the Valium the last 3 days of detox. That wasn't actually a long time. No one has mentioned getting back to Xanax and doing just what you posted above.

 

2 Pdocs, and neither has thought about a gradual crossover. My pdoc for 14 years never did any gradual crossover. Always a Direct switch, and apparently this new Dr. is the same way of thought. I guess that since I was detoxed in 5 days that they must think that part doesn't matter now. I have no idea.

 

I do know family and friends are tired of hearing about it. That much I know because they say it. I try and let most of that slide. Heck, I'm Tired of thinking about it or going through this. But yet I also know they couldn't undertstand having never gone through this. To them it's just like all should be well after 2 weeks.

 

They have no idea about Benzo Withdrawl, Tolerance, etc... I don't think anyone could unless they have gone through it. It's why I come here for advice, thoughts, etc... It's always, Why am I am on the internet so much, researching, etc... they don't Get it. Heck, now I'm afraid I'm going to tee off the new Pdoc, calling in asking about side effects, not liking a change, etc... Yet, spending over $300 in 10 days, I think I'm entilted to call or ask questions, tell how I fell about a change, etc... I only get 10 mins and maybe 9 at that to state what is going on. At 9 mins, he is walking to the door and walking you out.

 

(I see it as the old saying, Knowledge is Power. Had I researched my own problem more years ago, perhaps I could have avoided this mess. I just knew I felt better and so be it. Odd from a person who Loves research in general. I forgot my own issue and the drugs precribed. This possiblity was never really discussed. I partially blame my Doc, and Myself!) But, what's done is done... Now to navigate through it, which I found after a 5 day Detox Center that I couldn't handle. At least in the eyes of an ER Dr. And I honestly agreed in silence. Trauma was an understatement.

 

So, back to the Main issue. Getting stable for a few weeks to Breathe and relax.

 

He said to stay on Klonopin, but if things got too bad to go to the ER. He would not be back until Monday.

I feel like the Klonopin has increased Anxiety 10 fold, dry mouth that is insane, irritable, depression increased, etc...

 

Although Ativan wasn't the drug I detoxed from, never really had it period, it has seemed to be the best with valium since being brought out by the ER.

 

So I have another decision. Go to the ER, not going to be the same one because that place is Overloaded and 8 hour wait is minimal, and tell them what is currently going on? Perhaps print the above table for tapering and take it with me to the ER? perhaps I can get a script for Ativan to make it until next week to see my pdoc, or fire him as well?

 

Or stick with Klonopin and pray it gets better?

 

Edit:

I also know that I have a big anxiety problem. That's how this started regarding meds to begin with. Regardless of the reason why things went haywire in 98 after being put to sleep, sedated, for wisdom teeth removal, I can now reflect back far back in my life where there were many signs of an anxiety problem. Also OCD began to crop up when I hit puberty. I first thought as an athlete, it was typical baseball superstition. I found out in high school, it was more than that. i couldn't understand what was going on. Depression hit me bad around that time as well. It came and went. OCD I kind of fought off most of it in my ealry to mid 20's own my own. Some residual occasionally is left over. Minor compared to others I have seen with OCD. My Nephew has it Bad. I was never that bad with it, especially at his current age.

 

I just thought about these things after reading the post about the person 15 months off and struggling. Wondering when, etc... My anxiety plus rapid detox in itself, likely made me have such a trauma filled 4 days. it didn't help any I know. But could have been just the shock off such a rapid detox in itself. My former Doc and I talked the other day about what she said was such a deep rooted anxiety, that I would likely have to deal with that the rest of my life. Worries me about coming off long term. Yet I never had any counseling, coping sessions before everything blew out of control. So I don't know if I could have overcome things before crap hit the fan for good. Just rambling thoughts. I also do not have any resources when/if I ever get stable and do this again. I'm broke now, barely hanging on for another month. I can't just put things aside, I won't even have a place to go or stay. For now, I just keep telling myself there will be a way, there always has been, etc... But in reality, things are closing out fast. I live on Faith alone...

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i am a person who loves research in general too and i still didn't realize that coming off of 30mg vlaium, 2 mg xanax and a shit load of soma was considered a c/t until i found this forum and can't believe i didn't know about this forum for these last ten plus years.

 

and yes the klonopin and have a reverse affect during times like this of all you are going through. when i came home from the detox, the dry mouth was so excruciating i could hardly talk. i drank "real water" by the buckets and that really was the only water that helped it a little-- all other water just made it worse. felt like there was a serpent pulling my brain, head and neck back. was burning up everywhere.

 

i think the extra dry mouth is from the brain being so hot. it's on fire after a c/t. get the 'real water' and that will help a lot. it's in a blue plastic bottle.

 

i do think it's a good idea to get on both the ativan and valium and then so a switch over to just valium for the rest of your taper if you can find a Doc who will do that for you.

 

didn't you say you had been on xanax for 14 years? why are you worrying about that you will have deep rooted anxiety for the rest of your life? i know you've had lot's of things happen trauma wise. but being on the benzo's only makes all those 'underlying issue's' much worse and they tend to go away once off and out of withdrawals and all healed.

 

good luck finding a doctor who can give you what you need to get stable.

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Yes, the Paxil is for the extreme Anxiety. Been off and on this for the 14 years of being medicated. Had been off through the summer.

 

 

Hiya Cochese.  Here at BenzoBuddies we tend to focus mainly on benzos but please be aware that Paxil is very well known for nasty withdrawal effects.  Paxil's withdrawal effects can be remarkably similar to benzo withdrawal.  Of course not every gets WD effects (either from Paxil or from benzos) but it is something most definitely to think about because of the intermittent way you have been using Paxil.

 

There are many threads on Surviving Antidepressants about Paxil and here is just one of them.  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/405-tips-for-tapering-off-paxil-paroxetine/

 

There are even whole web sites about Paxil withdrawal such as Paxil Progress, Quit Paxil and others.

 

 

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Yes, the Paxil is for the extreme Anxiety. Been off and on this for the 14 years of being medicated. Had been off through the summer.

 

 

Hiya Cochese.  Here at BenzoBuddies we tend to focus mainly on benzos but please be aware that Paxil is very well known for nasty withdrawal effects.  Paxil's withdrawal effects can be remarkably similar to benzo withdrawal.  Of course not every gets WD effects (either from Paxil or from benzos) but it is something most definitely to think about because of the intermittent way you have been using Paxil.

 

There are many threads on Surviving Antidepressants about Paxil and here is just one of them.  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/405-tips-for-tapering-off-paxil-paroxetine/

 

There are even whole web sites about Paxil withdrawal such as Paxil Progress, Quit Paxil and others.

 

 

Thanks. I have looked at Paxil Progress during my research this past month.

 

I've been on and off a lot of times throughout 14 years. Never really had a problem,

The Dr. has brought up before that some shaking and Dry mouth could be due to the fact that I have restarted Paxil again. Says it can increase some anxiety and sxs until it is full effect, etc... I try and weigh that possible factor in when considering how these meds are effecting me since reinstating. It may be the cause of the severe dry mouth and shaking since being switched to klonopin Wed. But dry mouth is also listed as a side effect of klonopin itself as well. Also increased anxiety, agitation, etc...

 

So it's confusing what is doing what. I didn't have these things anywhere near this bad since being reinstated on Valium and with Ativan from the ER. I've been back on Paxil since 11/9. Just seems things are a little more haywire since Klonopin was started this past Wed. morning. Nor have I wanted to eat, go out, etc...

 

So I believe it's klonopin itself causing the main issues, and I will take today to see if Anything improves and whether to seek help changing back to Valium/Ativan.

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Still holding on...

 

Felt so bad, no energy, and shaking last Friday. Did go to the ER and explain what was and has been going on. The ER Dr. did decide to give me a very small script for Ativan until i could see the new Pdoc. (Was to be this past Monday if needed.)

 

Ironically, just before leaving the ER I slowly began to feel a Little better. I did go get the 24 Ativan filled just in case. Felt a little better the next day as well.

 

I did use Ativan this past Sunday, as I wanted good sleep and more food badly, but made the switch back to Klonopin quickly the next day. The past 2 days have been ok. Better than I thought they could be. Eating was good, etc... Late lastnight for some odd reason, I began to feel like Crap. Nausea hit very quickly and I felt like some WD's were beginning to to come back in as well. I don't know what happened. I did eat some funky chips while watching a movie, and about an hour later is when I felt things going downhill.

 

This morning and so far today, still feel down and almost like WD's are trying to come back. Stumped.

Just grabbed some weights and did some curls, etc..., even though I didn't feel like it. (So out of shape, or from the Benzos.)

 

I don't know if the Sudden change is from WD's trying to creep back again, or maybe I am coming down with a bug, etc... Several I know are coughing, running nose, sneezing, etc... I have felt this a little the past several days to some extent. Just hard to understand a failry Very good 2 days, including Most all of yesterday, to feel like crap within less than an hour.

 

Anyway, still trying to chug along and become more stable to make it through the holidays. (I sometimes wonder...)

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Still holding on...

 

Felt so bad, no energy, and shaking last Friday. Did go to the ER and explain what was and has been going on. The ER Dr. did decide to give me a very small script for Ativan until i could see the new Pdoc. (Was to be this past Monday if needed.)

 

Ironically, just before leaving the ER I slowly began to feel a Little better. I did go get the 24 Ativan filled just in case. Felt a little better the next day as well.

 

I did use Ativan this past Sunday, as I wanted good sleep and more food badly, but made the switch back to Klonopin quickly the next day. The past 2 days have been ok. Better than I thought they could be. Eating was good, etc... Late lastnight for some odd reason, I began to feel like Crap. Nausea hit very quickly and I felt like some WD's were beginning to to come back in as well. I don't know what happened. I did eat some funky chips while watching a movie, and about an hour later is when I felt things going downhill.

 

This morning and so far today, still feel down and almost like WD's are trying to come back. Stumped.

Just grabbed some weights and did some curls, etc..., even though I didn't feel like it. (So out of shape, or from the Benzos.)

 

I don't know if the Sudden change is from WD's trying to creep back again, or maybe I am coming down with a bug, etc... Several I know are coughing, running nose, sneezing, etc... I have felt this a little the past several days to some extent. Just hard to understand a failry Very good 2 days, including Most all of yesterday, to feel like crap within less than an hour.

 

Anyway, still trying to chug along and become more stable to make it through the holidays. (I sometimes wonder...)

 

hi, i hope you don't mind my opinion on this.

but the way you are doing it is not right, how will you ever get off benzos if you don't

accept the fact that it will be very hard for months ?

every time you go back to the ER you get another benzo.

i think you will have to work out a sensible taper plan and accept all the crap sxs .

i am 12 months off and if i did not push through this hell i would have ended up at the ER

a 100 times.

 

i wish you will find the strength and patience to find the right solution and push through

this, otherwise this will be a never ending battle.

all the best to you, its very very hard , but its worth it. :smitten:

 

 

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No, I don't mind.

 

I went back because I believed the Klonopin was really messing with me. It's certainly Different. Point being on the prior post is that I decided to try and stick with it as some things seemed to get better the more I kept taking it. Side effects itself was playing with my mind and body, yet seemed to finally break through some.

 

I do know I will have to go back through what I endured once already at some point. Just want to make it through the holidays first. I wanted, hoped, to be able to possibly go to Work as well through the holidays as I'm just about Broke! Completely. Plus now with more health issues with my Mom as well, I have a even more on me as I"m over everything regarding her health, financial, etc... Just a ton on me. (Plus I really love my Mom. I dunno how things are going to play out with her.)

 

The other goal was to also try and begin some rehab therapy, CBT, etc..., Before trying this again so that I might could use things learned when it begins, rather than wait like after like the last time when I was so screwed up I couldn't have even attended a class, much less walk or drive to do so... Would like to have those, Any, coping skills, tools, available this time before things get bad. The Rapid Detox did a number on me, in many ways. I still think about what that was like. Hard not to.

 

I truly do have very bad Anxiety underneath. It was kind of there long before I've come to realize that fact. Some depression and small OCD issues as well. I wish I had found someone before things got out of control after a dental surgery 14 years ago that lead to medication to begin with. I never sought real help before that. Thought things would eventually go away, denial, maybe that was supposed to be the way I was, etc...  (It was never Offered after the incident either. Just meds.) 

 

So there are things I Need to do and things to start learning before I attempt this again, or I won't make it. Physically or Mentally. Plus any arrangements regarding care like where I'm gonna go, where to stay, etc... I don't have any support or the abilty to just drop everything while I go through this again. (And hopefully what I go through won't be like last time after the rapid detox style. I was in deep crisis. I was at a limit that would not have turned out good. I'll just leave that as that...)

 

 

I know to well that it will be hard for months. Likely longer than that, especially with anxiety like I have.

I don't want to go through it on the streets homeless, without some coping skills learned prior, and without Any support.

That's where this would be heading at the moment...

 

I've been to the ER Twice, the first time because I Had to. Myself and "the People around me who saw what shape I was in" made that call. The ER Dr. also made the call to pull me out, on his own medical opinion. 3 mins or less to make that decision based on my condition when I was seen. I only went back the second time because of what I believe the Klonopin was causing. Point in the prior post is that I'm trying to Stick with It. I didn't use all the small script of Ativan they gave me. Giving Klonopin a true chance.

 

I've had 3 meds since being pulled out. Valium, Ativan and now Klonopin. I don't believe the new Dr. would write the correct amount of Valium to even start. No where near the Ashton way. Not gonna happen with my experience with Docs around here. Ativan is better, takes to much. Never liked Klonopin to begin with having taken it a month many years ago, yet Trying to stick with it now and gut it out.

 

 

 

So yes, I'm going about this a little different. Yet a Good Taper has always been the goal and I hope some of the "other points" make people understand why...

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