Vitamin C & Cortisol

I thought maybe we should revisit a discussion about cortisol and Vitamin C for help with insomnia and/or anxiety. We have had discussions about it before, but not for a while, except for a thread shelby started a few days ago in the “alternative therapies” section which doesn’t seem to have gotten a lot of attention.

 

I have read a bit about cortisol, but never really thought much about how it affected my insomnia problems, until I read this. It described me perfectly……

 

"Cortisol levels are supposed to be highest in the morning and lowest between about midnight and 4:00AM. If levels are too high, you'll feel wired, tense and hyper-vigilant. Our cortisol levels always rise above the normal level to help us cope with severe stress. This can happen, for example, during a divorce or as a reaction to withdrawal from medications, like benzodiazepines or antidepressants, often causing severe agitation and insomnia.

 

Sleep disturbance: If cortisol levels are too high at night, instead of very low, as they're supposed to be, you'll be kept up too late with a "second wind." Or your cortisol levels could rise too high early in the morning and wake you up prematurely. Or you could wake up between 2:00 and 4:00AM and not be able to get back to sleep easily. Are you a night owl? Testing may show that your cortisol is above normal levels between 10:00PM and midnight when it should be dropping to allow you to get to sleep.”

 

So I started taking some Vitamin C and the results have been amazing. A few other people on the valium support blog have also been testing it and have also reported improvements with sleep and anxiety.

 

I was also reading something else the other day that said that it is recommended that the base amount of Vitamin C that we should be taking daily is 30mg for every kilogram of body weight. This amount should then be increased if you are suffering any particular stresses (ie anxiety, medication, ill-health, benzo withdrawal etc). The dosage that I’m taking is 1000mg with breakfast, 1000mg with dinner and 2000mg before bed, so I am taking roughly double my base amount.

 

I’m not saying this will work for everyone because not everyone’s problems would be cortisol related, but I’m now convinced mine is. Everyone also needs to experiment with their own doses because some people may need to take more or less than I do.

Great info Pam, thanks so much. Do you find that this much vit C causes digestive distress because of the acidity?

No I personally haven't had any problems with it.

Diaz-pam was a good part of the reason I also tried Vit C.  I don't typically do supplements for a multitude of reasons, including concern of ramping up of symptoms, the fact that I have two autoimmune diseases related to the gut that limit not only supplement use, but food intake.  So I'm exceedingly cautious. 

 

I am one who has severe morning where I wake early in great distress.  I typically wake to a surge of adrenaline that leads to immediate thoughts of severe gloom and doom I have long believed this was cortisol related. There has been nothing I could do but endure the mornings. And while they were not at the worst they had been early on, they continued to be traumatic.  This has been going on for over two years and I can count the times I didn't wake up to this in the two years, on two hands.

 

After reading what Dpam and Bart wrote re: Vit C on another thread and knowing that both of these people are reasonable and not prone to miracle cures, I took a leap of faith and just under 2 weeks ago took 500mg of Vit C before I went to bed.  The next morning, although I still awoke at 4 am, because that's just how it is for me, the experience was significantly different.  I kept waiting for the morning uglies, but they never did appear. 

 

I have now done this just under two weeks and consistently the mornings have been significantly better.  There are mornings that some of the morning ugliness bleeds through, but compared to what it was prior, well, there is NO comparison.    This is the first time in those two years where mornings have been tolerable, for more than one day consecutively.  I am a skeptic and a cynic, but the proof, for me, is in the pudding and taking Vit C has provided me relief from one of my top 5 worst symptoms.  I would have never believed this and still am ambivalent that this is a fluke.  But like I said, I'm going on two week of relief and am ever so grateful I gave it shot.

 

I didn't mean to write a book, but to me this has been significant and thus far I have experienced no downside.  It's so simple and yet had been such a huge find for me.  I really hope that others find the same relief that I did. 

 

WWWI

This is great to hear, one of my early symptoms of tolerance withdrawal was morning panic, totally new to me and awful. I had always loved to sleep and all of a sudden mornings were hell.

This sounds encouraging.  I don't usually take supplements - I'll think about taking vitamin C but I don't want it to rev up s/xs...  Good to know there is something that might help.

Hi, Do you know if it will rebound if you stop taking the vit c?

You might get relief now, but what happens when you come off it?

 

Surprised1

 

That's a good question for which I have no answer.  My expectation is that if I stop, the mornings will return to how they were.  As I said, after much time and much research I genuinely believe what's affecting me is the cortisol surge.  After reading what Dpam and others said, I read the following.  This is what further convinced me that it wasn't a bad idea to try the Vit C.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/vitamin-c-stress-buster

 

I'm not sure I will come off of it.  I don't think adding 500 mg Vit C a day is a bad thing in general and probably provides other benefits outside of this.  I don't think the body produces Vit C and to have it requires either eating sufficient foods that contain Vit C or suppliments.  I know I don't eat enough fruit and I don't drink juice so for me it makes sense.

 

WWWI

I've been taking 3 grams first thing in the morning, late in the evening and just before workouts on days I lift weights for pretty much my entire taper. I also take ashwagandha and phosphatidylserine along with the vitamin c to further reduce cortisol production. At bedtime I take a product called Sleep Tonight by Enzymatic Therapy which is a blend of substances designed to block cortisol. When my taper is over I'll stay on lower doses of vitamin c and drop the rest.

I'm having a good result with Vit C thanks to Pam and Bart's posting about this!

I get awful mornings.  Sometimes I experience sheer dread and foreboding as soon as I open my eyes.  It can last for an hour or two and sometimes it continues longer than that.

 

This thread has given me an impetus to start taking my early morning vitamin C again.  Perhaps I'll also take a high dose of slow release Vitamin C when I go to sleep in the hope that it acts through the night.

Hi Bradan, bart and WWWi.

Yes, it looks like it should do the job quite well.

I have had vit-c a few times as it's certainly been suggested but I stuck down at 500mg to be safe.

My impression was that the next day seemed as if it may be more of a wave if I take it

If you suppress anything the brain decides to do, it has a nasty habbit of correcting the problem, and sometimes that correction can hit you once the interfearing drug has gone.

It's possible we might be seeing similar things with our ginkgo experiments.

Just worth being aware of, that's all!

 

surprised1

 

I'm not so sure it suppresses Cortisol as much as allows the body to quickly clear out cortisol. Cortisol is produced in response to stressors and I would suggest that w/d is physiologically stressful in an extraordinary way.  However if it causes you to go into a wave then you may want to tread carefully.

 

WWWI

 

I get awful mornings.  Sometimes I experience sheer dread and foreboding as soon as I open my eyes.  It can last for an hour or two and sometimes it continues longer than that.

 

This thread has given me an impetus to start taking my early morning vitamin C again.  Perhaps I'll also take a high dose of slow release Vitamin C when I go to sleep in the hope that it acts through the night.

As usual we are all guinia pigs in this, so please post your results, good, bad or ugly lol.

 

I've increased my cut a bit in order to be off sooner, and noticed a bit of an upsurge in the morning dread, but still not as challenging as it's been. But I'm hoping once off and not cutting that this will calm down further. 

Excess cortisol is the fundamental basis for the resistance stage of  Adrenal Fatigue, I had this problem (and all the symptoms you are all describing) before benzos, its actually what brought me to benzos. I have a huge knowledge through years of suffering from this and through the countless hours of research on the net, reading medical endocrine journals, taking thousands of pounds worth of supplements etc. So many on here now suffer from AF, the 'mythical disease', as it is brought on by prolonged physical or mental stress - which is exactly what benzo WD is! OVerall apart from the direct physiological aspects, it is a HPA dysfunction, and contrary to popular belief on here, it had nothing to do with gaba receptors! I feel the mental suffering we experience is gaba related, and the prolonged physical - AF. I am one that have experienced both.

 

I spent six months on high dose vitamin C (and proper vit c not the supermarket tablet kind) IV strength oral C. It didnt really fix the problem, but i was still working crazy hours and not sleeping..its actually a double edged sword, in some ways the vitamin C gave me energy i did not have, so took my CFS/AF to a new invisible level till crash time. I was running huge events in London amped up on vitamin C and Ambien to sleep, eventually ending up on valium. Since my benzo CT this original high cortisol problem is even worse, and the adrenaline surges through the night are unbearable. In my opinion, the only ways to continually lower cortisol are through body scan meditation 4-5 times a day, using an earthing blanket and rest. Whenever you feel a surge, or you are getting jittery, go for the deep breathing technique, or a body scan, calm it down before it goes mad! It isnt just cortisol that is the problem, it is norephirine (adrenaline), vitamin C does nothing for adrenaline, and i find adrenaline is more the problem than cortisol. Do you feel somedays completely 'wired' like you have drank fifteen cups of coffee and not slept? that is adrenaline overload.

 

The problem with our bodies now, is that the detoxification pathways are messed up due to the prolonged stress we have been experiencing in benzo WD, this is why supplements such as glutathione and milk thistle can help = they aid the livers natural detoxification process. You might find adding high dose C gives your more anxiety - this is because the C is detoxing you quicker than your body can cope. I have talked to many people who ended up with anxiety disorders after taking high dose C. It also stirs up heavy metals in your system, which is never a good thing as again it overules the detoxing state of the body.

 

Since i gave up on supplements and concentrated more on calming my system naturally (it dosent happen overnight, it takes prolonged commitment over weeks and months) I have seen more improvements. I have realised taking supplements can do more damage than good, your body takes what it needs from food. Anything else will cause changes in your chemisty, and many small changes can lead to big effects.

 

Vitamin C CAN make the problem worse btw. It can release toxins such as metals stored in your muscles to fast, and can cause increased anxiety, panic attacks etc. Interestingly though, if taken in a panic attac around 2000mg it can calm it all down for a couple of hours. I had to use this trick a few times over the past few months. I no longer believe in supplements, and only now use Mag Oil for the chronic back pain, funnily it the past month I have seen some improvements since stopping them all...however I am stil in the proverbial benzohell!

 

But if anyone does want Lipo Strength Vit C I have two unopened bottles for sale!

 

This is a good article on vitamin C

 

Adrenal Fatigue and Vitamin C

By: Michael Lam, MD, MPH

 

Adrenal fatigue sufferers invariably have inadequate supply of many key nutrients, including vitamin C, pantothenic acid, and pantethine. Out of these, sub-clinical vitamin C deficiency is the most prevalent. While no outward symptom of scurvy is seen as in clinical vitamin C deficiency, the body's need and appetite for vitamin C go up tremendously when the adrenals are weak. The highest concentration of vitamin C in the body is in the adrenals, where it is needed the most. Vitamin C helps the body repair and maintains connective tissue. It is a key catalyst of adrenal hormone production, including cortisol. Its antioxidant effects are important in the presence of tissue-destroying oxidants in periodontal disease as well as infections from a variety of sources. Those suffering from adrenal fatigue invariably needs large amount of Vitamin C for optimal recovery. In additon to its critical adrenal support function, vitamin C is perhaps the best electron donor because of its water-soluble properties and thus readily bio-available to the cells. Toxins deplete electron stores at the cell. Having sufficient electrons inside the cell reverse potential cell death brought on by bacterial , environmental, and industrial toxins.

 

In addition to its adrenal support function, vitamin C helps in the formation of critical collagens responsible for keeping the vascular system and musculo-skeletal system pliable and healthy. Collagen is the most abundant protein in the human body. Most proteins such as enzymes and co-factors occur in a small amount but there are a few exceptions, notably hemoglobin (in red blood cells) and collagen that exist in abundance throughout the body. In the blood vessels, collagen, together with elastic fibers, from an integral part of the sub-endothelial connective tissue just below the endothelium (a single layer of very thin squamous epithelial cell that lines all blood vessels), as well as the external elastic lamina. Collagen also contributes to the supporting framework upon which skeletal muscle operates. Proper collagen synthesis is required for optimum health. Having adequate vitamin C stablizes blood pressure and reduces the catabolic state typically experienced by adrenal fatigue sufferers.

 

Collagen is a complex molecule, the production of which occurs in several stages. The amino acids glycine and proline are the two key components. When they are exposed to Vitamin C, they form a compound called pro-collagen. The exact mechanism is not known, but studies have shown that prolonged exposure of human connective tissue culture to Vitamin C results in an eight-fold increase in the synthesis of collagen and not other proteins. The pro-collagen, a precursor to collagen is then converted into collagen in a reaction that substitutes a hydroxyl group, OH, for a hydrogen atom, H, in the proline and lysine point of the polypeptide pro-collagen chain. When Vitamin C is added, this hydroxylation process is catalyzed by 2 different enzymes called prolyl-4-hydroxylase and lysyl-hydroxylase. As such, Vitamin C functions as a catalyst. Because the body does not make vitamin C, it has to be supplied externally.

 

Collagen is omnipresent in our body. It forms the foundational matrix of our skin, bones, teeth, blood vessels, eyes, heart, and essentially the whole body. Collagen is stronger than a steel wire of the same weight. When it is combined with elastin and macropolysaccharides, a connective tissue network forms. It is this network that holds our body together. Collagen is so important in our bodies that without it, our body will not function. Of all the non-mineral constituents of the mammalian body, collagen forms a large proportion next to water and fats. In adrenal fatigue, the body breaks down collagen and muscle for fuel. This catabolic state lead to weakening of the skeletal system, with symptoms such as fibromyalgia, chronic muscular pain of unknown origin, joint pain, loss of muscle tone, and reduced muscle strength. This collagen must be replaced for the body to heal. The main building blocks of collagen are glycine, proline, lysine and Vitamin C, out of which only proline can be manufactured by the body from glutamine. The importance of Vitamin C's role in supporting collagen synthesis cannot be over-emphasized.

 

In time of stress and adrenal fatigue, the body's requirement for vitamin C can easy go up 10 to 20 fold or more. Having a sufficient level of vitamin C in the body is therefore critical to help the adrenals make anti-inflammatory hormones including cortisol, prevent catabolic state from worsening, boost immune function to fight infection, prevent heart disease, overcome opportunistic infections, and neutralize systemic toxins from environmental and periodontal diseases. Proper vitamin C fortification should therefore be a cornerstone of any adrenal recovery program and any pre-surgery setting where immune optimization is desired. Because there is no blood thinning effect, prophylactic vitamin C can be used safely prior to surgery.

 

Vitamin C comes in many forms. Each form of vitamin C has its own properties and characteristics. Ascorbic acid tends to be more acidic and "spiky", while buffered vitamin C tends to be a bit more gentle. Some people do well with ascorbic acid; while others develop gastric irritation or find it make them anxious. Most people also develop a harmless diarrhea at high doses. Most vitamin C commercially available are derived from corn sources, while some are from food sources. Food source vitamin C may raise blood sugar level, while those who have corn allergy may find corn source vitamin C intolerable. Vitamin C itself has adaptogenic properties. Manifestation of these characteristics is highly dependent on the degree of adrenal fatigue and the body's constitutional make-up. Side effects are rare even at high doses. Annoyance can include constipation, anxiety, irritability, fatigue, and insomnia which are normally, but not always, dose dependent.

 

Vitamin C is available in various oral delivery systems as well, from capsules, tablets, liquid, intravenous, powder, to effervescent forms. Absorption from the GI tract to the hepatic circulation varies from 5-18%. A bowl tolerance level is usually reached from 5,000- 10,000 mg, where harmless diarrhea occurs. The diarrhea usually goes away within 24 hours if the dosage is reduced.

 

Because over 80% of ordinary oral vitamin C passes through the gastrointestinal track unabsorbed, ultimate bio-availability to the cell is severely limited. This has been a great challenge. The electron donation and thus toxin-reversal and anti-bacterial effect of vitamin C can only be relied upon when administered in very high doses.

 

Up until recently, intravenous administration remains the best option to deliver high dose vitamin C to the cells in case of that suffering adrenal fatigue or those who needs it. Common dosage ranges from 30 to 50 grams IV vitamin C slow infusion. This is a time consuming process and is expensive.

 

In recent years, the advance of nanotechnology and liposomal encapsulation technology offers a significantly enhanced oral liquid delivery system with superior absorption from the small intestine rather than from the stomach. This cutting edge liposomal delivery system dramatically improves bio-availability and is by far the best oral form of vitamin C delivery system available. Liposomal delivery system is ideally suited for adrenal fatigue because high dose can be administered easily by mouth and is relatively inexpensive. Because absorption occurs at the small intestine and the stomach is bypassed, gastric irritation is minimal if any. Diarrhea is also significantly reduced because most is absorbed and does not remain in the GI tract where it triggers water retention at the large bowl and thus diarrhea..

 

While the bio-availability of vitamin C delivered by liposome is far superior to other forms of vitamin C, ascorbic acid in its various forms still has its place and should not be ignored. The absorption tends to be faster and results more immediate for these other forms. Because each body reacts differently to vitamin C, there is no "one size fit all" protocol. A thorough knowledge of these forms, including the pros and cons and the characteristics of mineral ascorbates and fat-soluable ascorbates, is important. Various forms of ascorbates, including regular and liposomal vitamin C should be use together in a nutritional blend or cocktail mix for maximum and sustained effect.

 

Dosage:

 

Commercially available oral liposomal vitamin C, such as LipoNanoTM C, is the preferred delivery system. The dosage varies greatly from person to person, but most do well with 3,000 to 6,000 mg a day for adrenal fatigue.

 

Mineral ascorbates (preferably magesium ascorbate) dosage range from 500 mg to 10,000 per day.

 

Fat-soluable vitamin dosage range from 100-2000 mg per day.

 

Effervescent and chewable forms shoiuld be avoided.

 

Because of the tremendous individual variation and different acceptance of the various forms of vitamin C by the body, those with moderate and severe adrenal fatigue should consult a health care professional prior to embarking on a self-navigation program. A qualitative testing challenge protocol should be considered. Self navigation should be considered only by those with very mild adrenal fatigue. Thie more advance the adrenal fatigue, the more critical that dosage must be properly adjusted to fit the body's decompensatory state to avoid woresening of the condition while benefiting from its properties.

 

Those who experienced significant worsening of fatigue or significant increased in anxiety upon intake of vitmain C should stop and seek professional advice as paradoxical reactions are not uncommon in those with a sensitive body.

Thank you for your input Dubjam, but I would hate to see anyone put off at least giving Vitamin C a try. No one is saying it is going to help everyone, but those of us who have tried it have had positive results. Everyone needs to make up their own minds.

Hi Bradan, bart and WWWi.

Yes, it looks like it should do the job quite well.

I have had vit-c a few times as it's certainly been suggested but I stuck down at 500mg to be safe.

My impression was that the next day seemed as if it may be more of a wave if I take it

If you suppress anything the brain decides to do, it has a nasty habbit of correcting the problem, and sometimes that correction can hit you once the interfearing drug has gone.

It's possible we might be seeing similar things with our ginkgo experiments.

Just worth being aware of, that's all!

 

 

My understanding is that during times of stress, our cortisol levels sort of get "out of whack" and fluctuate at times they're not supposed to. For example, when cortisol is supposed to be at its lowest at night, you might get a sudden surge and that leads to the very common 2am wake-up call where you can't get back to sleep until around 4am. That used to happened to me regularly, and I read about a lot of people experiencing that problem.

 

I personally don't feel that there is a problem with all of us taking a bit more Vitamin C. We are one of the few animals that can't produce our own and we need get it through food. However, there's the rub. Most of us don't eat anywhere near enough uncooked and freshy harvested fruit and vegetables. Vitamin C can be damaged through heat (cooking) and storage. Also the RDA of Vitamin C is between 70-100mg, which most experts now acknowledge is woefully low, and was really only implemented to prevent scurvy. Most of these experts now say that the RDA should be much higher.

 

I personally plan on continuing to take Vitamin C even after I've finished my taper, albeit at a possibly lower dose. I've now come to realise the benefits of taking it long term.

Hi Diaz-Pam,

Yes, totally!

it is a pretty harmless thing to take, and probably does us way more good than harm.

If you feel ok and are taking it keep going.

I've yet to prove eather way for myself if it effects symptoms much, although my impression was that it helped the first time or so, but then stopped making much noticable difference after that.

Many people have reported improvements from it, so  worth trying!

 

Perhaps you need to experiment with taking it a different times of the day. For example, I was taking 500mg at lunchtime, but I found that I had a lot of late afternoon fatigue, so I stopped taking it then and that seemed to solve the problem.

 

In my case, my problem is insomnia, so it seems I benefit most from taking the highest dose at night, but for people who suffer more from anxiety perhaps a different time of day or a different dose would be better. Also, some people seem to benefit from taking the slow release type.

 

It's just one of those trial and error things that we are all so used to doing in benzo w/d...lol.....

Yep, that's it allright,

And then once you've got it all worked out perfectly, the symptoms go and totally change on you, and it's back to square 1!

Fun!!!

 

I took a quick look at some charts showing levels of cortisol and noted that they doesn't seem to be much consensus about exactly what times of day the levels get raised.  I haven't made an extensive search but I did glance at these two.

 

http://flipper.diff.org/app/items/3973

http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal27/adrenal27.htm

 

 

 

 

You can get an ASI test (adrenal stress index) done privately and online..its about 80 quid...it will show you your cortisol levels at four points throughout the day (although if you have nightime awakenings I suggest getting the five point one so you can test you 3-4am awakening). This will give you a representation of your cortisol levels.

 

Seriphos is a far better supplement than vitamin C to reduce cortisol levels.

 

I used to be on 8000mg a day of IV strength C...it feels great at first, them boom, it makes certain things ALOT worse as it makes adjusments to your whole system..just my opinion and experience (i can point you in the direction of many people who have been worsened by high dose vitamin C (over 1000mg a day) but give it a shot, hope it works for you, anything to ease this suffering!

Hi Dubjam,

Yep, I have been tempted by it, but I just want to see clark come good beforehand!

Perhaps in some cases, it works a bit too well!!!

What bad things have you seen with Vit C?

Did you see rebounds, as I suspect that happens!

 

I know hundreds that have used Seriphos on curezone, and non had any negative effects from me..hells i was up to 8 tabs a day in the acute benzo wd stage and never had any reaction. I know Clark pretty well from another forum, and we really think it was something else that was wrong, and maybe the seriphos just tippled the edge, but like me, he had big adrenal problems prior to benzos. I feel for the dude big time....but as with ANY supplement, they are not FDA approved, so in could of been he got a bad tablet. I have know people that have had similar reactions to supplements and some had their batch tested and it showed things like mercury, lead, arsenic etc.

 

Bad things with high dose vitamin C - ANXIETY and hyperactive states, similar to arkathia. This happened to me, I went supersonic for weeks and months, it was awful, at the time I didnt put it down to the C, cause we get told we get rid of anything we dont use. Byut it its own right, it is an adrenal adaptagen, and playing around with the adrenals, with adaptagens is what sent me into the world of benzos. Lots of other bad vitamin C stories on curezone, but also lots of good ones, so its entirely up to you to try it. I have spent over £10k on supplements in two years, and now, realise i am getting better without any.

 

Coming off Vit C was also similar to benzo withdrawal. For two months I had similar physical (minus the mental stuff) symptoms as benzo WD, however, I did CT the C as well on advice from a bloody doctor! so tapering, as we all learned the hard way is the way to go

Watch the film Forks Over Knives!

I don't know if what you are saying about Vit C is true or not, but will take you at your word.  All I know is that taking 500 mg Vit C before I go to bed had a direct benefit to how I wake up in the morning.