neurotransmitters: symptoms of low and high levels and ways to help heal them

I am trying to piece together something about neurotransmitters......this post is a bit of an experiment and I hope you can all join in and give your opinions......

 

We all seem to experience a certain set of symptoms. I spoke with my doctor today about the set of symptoms I keep getting and while he did say that in general many people will burn out their adrenals during withdrawal that certain neurotransmitters will be affected and depending on which ones. will produce different symptoms.....which would explain why my adrenal symptoms and my test results have always been so conflicting and I only ever seem to fit a few of them. and I know I have high cortisol but low something else....which can still mean my adrenals are burnt out...

 

As we all know w/d affects our neurotransmitters and hormones differently..it  makes some of them more active, some of them less active......It seems to me that what I am most lacking in is norepinephrine.

 

 

I am going to just throw out an idea and see how many people seem to fall into one category predominantly........maybe this would in effect help to add certain supplements or medications, food or activities to aid in the healing of our w/d and our side effects if we were to use a little of what we need on a limited basis in order to destress our bodies and let our gaba receptors reset....which many people on this board have done with great success...timely meds or vitamins and supplements for short periods to aid in healing for specific deficits....makes sense why somethings work for some and not others.......I already tried a little bit of an ssri which I was going to use during the final few months of my taper to help me jump off. my benzo w/d doctor who is fabulous, suggested this..unfortunately it had the opposite effect and caused me suicidal thoughts(on a child's dose) very scary. but when I take tramadol and I get a noroephnerine response I feel fantastic! totally normal...obviously all of these symptoms are gaba related as well but I always seem to get the same cluster of symptoms and wonder if it is because the w/d is affecting one transmitter more than the other

 

 

 

DOPAMINE.....Inside the brain, dopamine plays important roles in motor control, motivation, arousal, cognition, and reward, as well as a number of lower-level functions including lactation, sexual gratification, and nausea

low dopamine symptoms

•Stiff, rigid, achy muscles

•Tremors and shaking

•Impaired fine motor skills

•Cognitive impairment (called brain fog or fibro fog)

•Inability to focus attention

•Poor balance and coordination

•Strange walking pattern (gait), frequently with small steps

Muscle rigidity and stiffness

Slow movements and difficulty with voluntary movements

Tremors and shaking

Falling when walking

 

high dopamine

 

High levels of dopamine, on the other hand, are associated with addiction, euphoria, hyperstimulation, excessive focus, suspicion, and the inability to separate what is important from what isn't

 

 

I have none of these symtoms for high or low

 

low serotonin

 

 

this one is long

 

 

  problems with concentration and attention. We become scatterbrained and poorly organized. Routine responsibilities now seem overwhelming. It takes longer to do things because of poor planning. We lose our car keys and put odd things in the refrigerator. We call people and forget why we called or go to the grocery and forget what we needed. We tell people the same thing two or three times.

 

Chronic fatigue. Despite sleeping extra hours and naps, we remain tired. There is a sense of being “worn out”

 

· Sleep disturbance, typically we can’t go to sleep at night as our mind/thought is racing. Patients describe this as “My mind won’t shut up!” Early-morning awakening is also common, typically at 4:00 am, at which point returning to sleep is difficult, again due to the racing thoughts.

 

· Appetite disturbance is present, usually in two types. We experience a loss of appetite and subsequent weight loss or a craving for sweets and carbohydrates when the brain is trying to make more Serotonin.

 

· Total loss of sexual interest is present. In fact, there is loss of interest in everything, including those activities and interests that have been enjoyed in the past.

 

· Social withdrawal is common – not answering the phone, rarely leaving the house/apartment, we stop calling friends and family, and we withdraw from social events.

 

· Emotional sadness and frequent crying spells are common.

 

· Self-esteem and self-confidence are low.

 

· Body sensations, due to Serotonin’s role as a body regulator, include hot flushes and temperature changes, headaches, and stomach distress.

 

· Loss of personality – a sense that our sense of humor has left and our personality has changed.

 

· We begin to take everything very personally.

 

depression and suicidal thinking if low enough

 

 

 

 

Very low levels of Serotonin

 

 

· Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

 

· You’ll become emotionally numb. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off.

 

·  Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface.

 

  With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc.

 

· As low Serotonin levels are related to obsessive-compulsive disorders,

 

 

I only have a few of these symptoms for low serotonin

 

 

high serotonin aka serotonin syndrome is rare but can happen

 

•Agitation or restlessness

•Confusion

•Rapid heart rate and high blood pressure

•Dilated pupils

•Loss of muscle coordination or twitching muscles

•Heavy sweating

•Diarrhea

•Headache

•Shivering

•Goose bumps

•

 

I have none of these symptoms

 

 

low levels of norepinephrine

 

 

•Loss of alertness and ability to focus/concentrate

•no motivation

•Memory problems

•Depression

•Lack of arousal and interest

•fatigue, exhaustion, especially at specific times of the day.

• orthostatic hypotension, hypotension and my favourite postpranial hypotension(while eating)

•low blood pressure, lightheadedness

•One of the most important functions of norepinephrine is its role as the neurotransmitter released from the sympathetic neurons affecting the heart.....irregular heart beats, palpitations, blood pressure etc...It increases the brain's oxygen supply.[7] Norepinephrine can also suppress neuroinflammation

 

 

I have all of these.

•

 

 

 

high levels of norepinephrine

 

 

 

Moderately high levels of norepinephrine create a sense of arousal that becomes uncomfortable. Remembering that this neurotransmitter is strongly involved in creating physical reactions, moderate increases create worry, anxiety, increased startle reflex, jumpiness, fears of crowds & tight places, impaired concentration, restless sleep, and physical changes. The physical symptoms may include rapid fatigue, muscle tension/cramps, irritability, and a sense of being on edge. Almost all anxiety disorders involve norepinephrine elevations

 

 

 

Palpitations, pounding heart or rapid heart rate

 

· Sweating and body temperature changes

 

· Trembling or shaking

 

· Shortness of breath of smothering sensations

 

· Choking sensations

 

· Chest pain and discomfort

 

· Nausea or stomach distress

 

· Dizziness, lightheadedness, or feeling faint

 

· Sense of unreality, as though you are outside yourself

 

· Fear of losing control or going crazy

 

· Fear of dying

 

· Numbness and tingling throughout the body

 

· Chills and hot flushes

 

 

I used to have this all the time at the beginning of w/d now I have none of them. no arousal whatsoever. it would seem as I am w/ding and my glutamate goes up and my gaba goes down I should be feeling rampped up like most people here on the forums...and even people with adrenal fatigue....but not me.

 

 

cortisol as we all know plays a big role in blood sugar, energy levels, immune system etc....I won't get into high and low cortisol because I think they overlap a lot of symptoms...when I had severely off the chart high cortisol my symptoms were the same as low cortisol. but I always have the low norepinephrine symptoms regardless. and of course we all know that there are also very specific benzo w/d symptoms that are specific to gaba and glutamate and I have most of them as well as I am sure we all do. and there has been a ton written about them already.....I am just starting to really consider that our symptoms are very neurotransmitter specific on top of gaba specific....what do you all think? any exploration of this or experimenting with this? would love feedback......sorry my fellow benzo brains this was such a long post......................anyone can chime in on gaba, cortisol, glutamate, dhea, thyroid or any other hormone s or brain chemicals high and low symptoms to add to the data...but mostly I was told that these are the mains one affected plus the adrenals and that everyone is a bit nutrient deficient in w/d.............thanks Alabama.xo

also parker wrote a great long article on how female hormones are affected as well.....maybe someone can post a link......

my doctor also said that targeting natural ways of boosting or calming the off balance neurotransmitter would be the first line of defense....it would make sense why certain activities and foods would not work with certain imbalances.....for example with norephidrine..to raise it would be to keep my brain calm so it can repair itself better and start producing norephidrne itself...but to stay too calm would keep my blood pressure too low so I had to ramp up my exercise because it stimulates norephidrines. I have done it for many days now and it has been great.....and I move around a lot (I used to rest all the time to conserve my non existent energy..wrong thing to do), just little things, laundry, cooking, small walks, and my energy is coming back and I can digest a meal without feeling lightheaded and wanting to pass out...for my whole w/d I was a fraid of exercising or moving too much because so many people did poorly on it.....but it seems to be the right stimulant for me ....hopefully I will not need the next line of treatment which would be an medication to boost my norepinephidrine..... it also says that protein tends to enhance it and so does caffeine...(caffeine hurts my tummy so that;s out but it sure does work wonders when I cave and have a cup of tea!)

Alabama,

Have you read Perseverance's blogs in the section chewing the fat?  She has several on what you are talking about. 

 

This is a great post by the way. 

I have a lot of the low symptoms on all of them. Oh well

Thank you for this information.  I have definitely experienced low levels of serotonin (due to Klonopin) and have had many of the symptoms you listed.

how are you guys handling all this?

i am mentally broke now.

how are you guys handling all this?

i am mentally broke now.

 

It's not easy.  I am still on Paxil, however, and that helps.  Also, I was discovered to be low in Vit. D and my doctor has put me on Vit. D supplements.  I am starting to feel better after only a few days on the Vitamin D.

vitamin d is a precursor for dopamine...........]through genetic testing it showed I had a predisposition for high dopamine....I am not high dopamine at the moment but I have never been low dopamine, I don't think it's possible with my genes....and I never experience any of the low dopamine symptoms that so  many people on this forum suffer from...brain fog, tremors, etc..I do not tolerate vit d very well at all! it makes sense now that I think about it and see the symptomology... so it is interesting that you have the low serotonin symptoms and do well on paxil...where as I did horrible on paxil and have very few serotonin symptoms only around  my period and that is very normal for any women benzo or no benzo..I tend to eat a lot of carbs around my period and it helps so much!.........in regards to how to deal with it....there are plenty of ways to raise and lower these hormones naturally before getting into medications......neurospecific activities, like if you are low in norephinephidrine you need a good workout, but if you are having adrenal problems and low cortisol, exercise might not be great but taking licorice might help tremendously.....I have high cortisol...when I took licorice or any vit c or hydrocordisone or anything to increase cortisol I felt like I was going to jump out of my skin!!!! so much aanxiety......serotonin] does well with carbs.....there is a book called potatoes not Prozac..........etc.....so interesting really, it sort is starting to feel less puzzling after writing it all down and talking it through with my dr. and now this great dialogue...I will check out perserverences blogs....thanks!

pacific ocean...which category do you mainly fit into and what are your main symptoms...is there a pattern to your symptoms like certain time of the month, after stress etc.....

thought I might take it one step further....I am sure there are many ways that I have not mentioned 

 

WAYS TO INCREASE DOPAMINE

 

 

Vitamin B6, l-tyrosine and vitamin D 

GINSENG...in many scientific studies....

 

antioxidant rich foods

 

foods high in tyrosine

 

there are specific medications that can raise dopamine without targeting other transmitters

 

exercise raises dopamine

 

sex raises dopamine...if you don't feel like that try masturbation

 

good food, pleasurable activities raise dopamine

 

drugs like cocaine and amphetamines  increase dopamine however I don't suggest that because they also ruin receptors, but it is why they recommend stimulants to raise it.........some benzo w/d doctors have had great success using stimulants to calm benzo w/d patients...makes sense if you are low in dopamine...

 

achieving goals, no matter how small, it gives your brain a boost of dopamine and continues making you want to achieve more and more...the reward centre.....

 

WAYS  TO DECREASE NOREPINEPHRINE AND ADRENALINE

 

 

obviously since it induces a panic/fight or flight response it is important for these individuals to really monitor things that make them stressed or panicky or fearful and to manage those thoughts.

 

things like psycho therapy, CBT, yoga, meditation, deep diaphragmatic breathing, chanting, etc...

 

watching your blood sugar levels and maintaining a steady level of sugar in your blood...a low to medium glycemic diet. when the adrenaline is high especially at night it will burn through a lot of energy so eating food before bed or when you wake up at night will help to calm you back down, especially complex carbohydrates, as your brain burns sugar in fight or flight mode. eat frequent meals that are small instead of large, as large will surge your blood sugar, insulin and adrenalin. a lot of times a surge in adrenalin will simply be  due to low blood sugar. so have a healthy snack.

 

if you have food /environmental/chemical etc allergies or sensitivities then avoid them but don't become hypervigilant and stress about avoiding them.

 

try gently walking, yoga, weight lifting/resistance training etc....exercise burns off adrenaline but only gentle exercise, hard will actually increase it.

 

unfortunately benzos reduce adrenaline surges that is why as you reduce them or eliminate them your gaba does not function properly to mediate the adrenaline and it surges easily. so medication really is not an option for this problem.

 

avoid caffeine or stimulants like nicotine......stick to calmants like camomile tea or natural herbs for calming......

 

massages

 

magnesium/Epsom salt baths

 

WAYS TO INCREASE NOREPINEPHRINE

 

 

 

stimulants like caffeine, small amounts of sugar, nicotine(yes bad for you but technically raises it and gets blood pressure up) when used in moderation (except nicotine) can be a good thing.

 

workouts/exercise but no so intense you burn yourself out, but not calming yoga either. get a sweat going and get your heart beat up up up....get that blood pumping.

 

manage stress, the more you are less stressed, the better your brain chemicals will work!

 

move, don't sit idle

 

if you have hypotension......increase salt and water intake, don't change positions too fast and get tight pressure socks....avoid hot baths or temperatures or anything that opens your blood vessels...stick to things that constrict them. sex/orgasm works too!

 

Vitamin B6, l-tyrosine taken together as well as ginseng. stay away from magnesium it lowers blood pressure!

 

and of course there are plenty of medications to increase norepinephrine without increasing the other ones. and there are some that will increase a mixture of them or all of them......

 

get passionate about things, get your self involved, and get going regardless about how tired you are, push yourself don't give in to the tired.

it will rev up your system and get the blood pumping!

HOW TO INCREASE  SEROTONIN

 

 

Light boxes...this has been scientifically proven and getting outside in the summer and vitamin d

 

increasing tryptophan in supplement form and/or in food...very important

 

exercise...whatever kind you can tolerate and enjoy......mild, medium or hard core. it's not how much or how hard you do it, just do it.

 

ssri's or serotonin increasing medications.....

 

keeping blood sugar stable and keeping the brain fed with complex carbohydrates...no low carb diets for these people! carbs work in conjunction with proteins to help increase tryptophan. serotonin is especially low before menstruation that is why we gals crave carbs!

 

yes it has been said a million times but stress reduction and giving your brain a means to heal to boost it's own chemicals is vitally important..so stop with the beating yourself up or negativity......so hard in benzo w/d I know......

 

massages

 

good fats and omega's like fish oil, krill oil, chia seeds, flax etc.....these help neurotransmitters function better and more efficiently.

 

avoid the stimulants like coffee, nicotine and fast sugars

 

5-htp, SAM-e and st.john's wort are supplements...they have  not been ] consistently  proven to improve mood or serotonin in scientific studies but a lot of people find they help...

 

 

a word about b vitamins which are universally worshipped for their mood boosting properties......most normal people are aided by b vitamins and supplements in general...however a lot of people in benzo w/d cannot tolerate any supplements...most people find getting their nutrition through nutrient dense foods does not cause side effects....take all supplements and vitamins with caution...they can cause s/x to worsen and some to get better..... it's a crap shoot!

 

This is an interesting post. I like its simplicity. However, we are such complex organism and as someone else mentioned - everything's supposed to work together. When 1 chemical is not properly balanced it effects others as well in varying degrees.

 

I have to think most will agree that the high-lows, up-downs, wave-windows, and so forth of BZ W/D reflects this. Additionally, depending on an individual's brain chemistry & neuroplasticity (one of the newer words being used), are also factors in how quickly the adaptive mechanism to correct the imbalance takes place. I want to be encouraging and do not mean to imply that we do not recover from BZ use. I just think it is more complex than just levels of a specific chemical and a lot is unknown about how all of it works.

 

I can speak from experience because of my past BZ use for periods > than 2 months when all of this information and sharing was not available. I was always prescribed V for muscle spasms after an injury or surgery without any thought of the long term implications. After those exposures I have always recovered and functioned within the usually accepted limits of society and did well in my personal life as well as my work. Unfortunately, now I'm aging out of everything.

 

I seem to have most all the low serotonin ones at my current stage. I may have had some of the others related to epinephrine.

 

Any chance you could cite your sources?

 

Alabama-

 

Thank you for your contribution to this forum!  :thumbsup:

 

 

 

River

Incredibly poignant post  - and I totally agree with it.

 

First off - tramadol is a "weak" SNRI - with an added bonus in withdrawal.

 

Tramadol works in a number of ways.

 

1) It immediately releases serotonin.  This is different than how SSRI's work - which only serve to reduce the reuptake of the body's own serotonin.  Tramadol says to the receptor - "MAKE SEROTONIN NOW" - and it does.  One of serotonin's mechanisms, besides the obvious one of increasing mood and reducing pain - is to regulate the release of GABA and Glutamate.  Serotonin modulates "when" to  release GABA - and while it's a lesser neurotransmitter than GABA - it acts with it.

2) It inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine.  (Just this combination alone is a huge mood boost.)

3) It is an opioid receptor antagonist - and "acts on" opioid receptors to decrease pain (and anxiety, although this is not the purpose of opiates, they do function as anxiolytics)

4) It is an NMDA receptor antagonist.  - NMDA is a TYPE of Glutamate receptor.  In short, Tramadol suppresses glutamate -  which means you have less damaging glutamate storming your brain while you're on it.

 

Just the addition of serotonin and the reduction of glutamate is a pretty powerful combination in a CNS that is overrun with glutamate and lacking enough GABA. This combo can feel amazing. 

 

I have taken tramadol in withdrawal with the same effect.

 

As far as the neurotransmitters - I have studied and applied science to rebuild brain chemistry with great success.  Every aspect of my mood, cognition, and physical symptoms have benefitted from the following:

 

Vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, B vitamins (including B3, B2, B5, B6, B12, folate, biotin, etc.) , probiotics, and high doses of omega 3's in fish oil. This combination has made me feel 25 again at 20 months off benzos. With the addition of zinc, my libido skyrocketed. And it's not only me.

I made this recommendation to WTBNA - another buddy - and he has noticed the same - especially with zinc.

 

I recently increased my B complex from 1/4 a pill to 1/2 a pill - and along with plenty of dietary protein and magnesium - this combination has made me feel INCREDIBLY good mood-wise. Amino acids from protein are required, but as long as the aminos are there - and the B vitamins and magnesium are there - then serotonin will be made. 

I was eating a very clean, balanced diet of whole foods, but I still could not keep up with the stress demand of withdrawal by getting enough vitamins and minerals from food. But adding them in supplement form was like a lightswitch went off.

 

Thank you to a certain buddy who is a nutritionist and wrote me to tell me to increase my B vitamins - that worked! 

 

The body is simply a biochemical machine.  The body only runs on "chemicals from food". And it absolutely matters what type and amount and quality and nutrient content it contains.  Food - in short -is medicine. Each day you mix and cook food, you are putting different doses and amounts of "medicine" into a healing body in order to try and give it the raw materials to reverse damage.  It absolutely matters what raw materials you ingest. Some of it can be food. Some of it, as needed, can be supplements.

My body burns through magnesium and B every day - and I can totally feel it happen - because when I take another dose of magnesium, I  get a calm and tremendous rush of positive brain energy.  (Mind you - this only started happening at about 15 months off - even though I took it for months prior. I was still sick. And the healing takes time, even with good supplements.)

 

At this point, I'm 20 months off - and while I can tell a number of ways my eyes are still adjusting,etc. I am feeling amazing - with an incredibly sense of well being and energy - which is SO hard to believe.  I have made rapid progress since starting the supplements a few months ago - and it took that long to assimilate those nutrients into producing and increasing serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine - but it is working big time.

 

In addition, I eat apples, an entire bag of bibb lettuce (for vitamin K), NO MSG, no dairy, and limited wheat.  I do eat wheat and pasta and crackers and bread, just not as much of that. I also eat a lot of nuts and seeds and that was an additional benefit. 

 

Food is fuel and is medicine.  Don't think so?  Try skipping an entire vitamin or mineral in food for a year - you'll wind up sick with some sort of illness.  That being said, that would rarely happen in real life where food is a mix of nutrients and most people are at least typically getting enough basics to "stay alive" - but in a culture where upwards or 80% of people are already magnesium deficient - we are a population that is healing from neurological injury - and our body's needs are even higher.

 

In short - I have run the experiment you are referring to - and YES - certain nutrients and supplements can rebuild neurotransmitters. 

 

:)P

great input guys! I unfortunately have not been able to take supplements so am rebuilding with food although my extremely sore stomach and chronic gastritis makes my food sources limited. thankfully I know a lot about nutrition so I hope it is going okay. I love magnesium and tramadol. they both make me feel fantastic. however they both lower my blood pressure (not tramadol as much unless I took it every day which is tempting!)and that is really my main s/x. it dictates my life at the moment. it makes it hard to have energy, hard to stand up, hard to digest, hard to sit for long periods of time because my limbs fall asleep, they do it as well when I sit for too long...not getting enough oxygen to my brain is a real problem and causes so much lighheadedness and makes it incapable to function. I have to accept some deficiencies in vitamins and minerals because of the side effects when taking them especially b vitamins.....hopefully once I am through my taper I can get some supplements into me.  I think the reason the tramadol works so well is that it allows me to increase neurotranmitters while blunting the energizing effect of it mby downregulating glutamate so I actually get the benefit of them without the agitation of building the too fast...and I usually only take them around my period when my serotonin is low to begin with.. when I take the neurotransmitters like ssri or snri I get the agitation. very interesting as to why it relaxes me but also boosts me in the things I am lacking........very interesting indeed!

pacific ocean...which category do you mainly fit into and what are your main symptoms...is there a pattern to your symptoms like certain time of the month, after stress etc.....

i am early stage of w/d. too many mental/physical symptoms. about 30 symptoms all the time, and one or two of very severe ones continuously. my pattern is daily. not weekly or monthly.

Incredibly poignant post  - and I totally agree with it.

 

First off - tramadol is a "weak" SNRI - with an added bonus in withdrawal.

 

Tramadol works in a number of ways.

 

1) It immediately releases serotonin.  This is different than how SSRI's work - which only serve to reduce the reuptake of the body's own serotonin.  Tramadol says to the receptor - "MAKE SEROTONIN NOW" - and it does.  One of serotonin's mechanisms, besides the obvious one of increasing mood and reducing pain - is to regulate the release of GABA and Glutamate.  Serotonin modulates "when" to  release GABA - and while it's a lesser neurotransmitter than GABA - it acts with it.

2) It inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine.  (Just this combination alone is a huge mood boost.)

3) It is an opioid receptor antagonist - and "acts on" opioid receptors to decrease pain (and anxiety, although this is not the purpose of opiates, they do function as anxiolytics)

4) It is an NMDA receptor antagonist.  - NMDA is a TYPE of Glutamate receptor.  In short, Tramadol suppresses glutamate -  which means you have less damaging glutamate storming your brain while you're on it.

 

Just the addition of serotonin and the reduction of glutamate is a pretty powerful combination in a CNS that is overrun with glutamate and lacking enough GABA. This combo can feel amazing. 

 

I have taken tramadol in withdrawal with the same effect.

 

As far as the neurotransmitters - I have studied and applied science to rebuild brain chemistry with great success.  Every aspect of my mood, cognition, and physical symptoms have benefitted from the following:

 

Vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, B vitamins (including B3, B2, B5, B6, B12, folate, biotin, etc.) , probiotics, and high doses of omega 3's in fish oil. This combination has made me feel 25 again at 20 months off benzos. With the addition of zinc, my libido skyrocketed. And it's not only me.

I made this recommendation to WTBNA - another buddy - and he has noticed the same - especially with zinc.

 

I recently increased my B complex from 1/4 a pill to 1/2 a pill - and along with plenty of dietary protein and magnesium - this combination has made me feel INCREDIBLY good mood-wise. Amino acids from protein are required, but as long as the aminos are there - and the B vitamins and magnesium are there - then serotonin will be made. 

I was eating a very clean, balanced diet of whole foods, but I still could not keep up with the stress demand of withdrawal by getting enough vitamins and minerals from food. But adding them in supplement form was like a lightswitch went off.

 

Thank you to a certain buddy who is a nutritionist and wrote me to tell me to increase my B vitamins - that worked! 

 

The body is simply a biochemical machine.  The body only runs on "chemicals from food". And it absolutely matters what type and amount and quality and nutrient content it contains.  Food - in short -is medicine. Each day you mix and cook food, you are putting different doses and amounts of "medicine" into a healing body in order to try and give it the raw materials to reverse damage.  It absolutely matters what raw materials you ingest. Some of it can be food. Some of it, as needed, can be supplements.

My body burns through magnesium and B every day - and I can totally feel it happen - because when I take another dose of magnesium, I  get a calm and tremendous rush of positive brain energy.  (Mind you - this only started happening at about 15 months off - even though I took it for months prior. I was still sick. And the healing takes time, even with good supplements.)

 

At this point, I'm 20 months off - and while I can tell a number of ways my eyes are still adjusting,etc. I am feeling amazing - with an incredibly sense of well being and energy - which is SO hard to believe.  I have made rapid progress since starting the supplements a few months ago - and it took that long to assimilate those nutrients into producing and increasing serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine - but it is working big time.

 

In addition, I eat apples, an entire bag of bibb lettuce (for vitamin K), NO MSG, no dairy, and limited wheat.  I do eat wheat and pasta and crackers and bread, just not as much of that. I also eat a lot of nuts and seeds and that was an additional benefit. 

 

Food is fuel and is medicine.  Don't think so?  Try skipping an entire vitamin or mineral in food for a year - you'll wind up sick with some sort of illness.  That being said, that would rarely happen in real life where food is a mix of nutrients and most people are at least typically getting enough basics to "stay alive" - but in a culture where upwards or 80% of people are already magnesium deficient - we are a population that is healing from neurological injury - and our body's needs are even higher.

 

In short - I have run the experiment you are referring to - and YES - certain nutrients and supplements can rebuild neurotransmitters. 

 

:)P

 

Parker,

 

I agree with you 100 % on the body being a chemical factory that needs sound nutrition.

 

I'm not asking for medical advise but you bring up an interesting point I can't seem to find a reasonable answer to. It is and I'm not quite sure how to word this. I have to give a bit of back ground.

 

Over the past 20 years, I have been given at least 1 drug in every class available for symptoms of conditions that are similar to all of the BZ W/D ones. In all cases I have not done well, that includes tramadol. I could give more detail, but maybe you might understand what I asking.

 

RE: the tramadol. I was given it in conjunction with an SSRI for a perceived increase in pain level after a slip & fall. I fell in to a profound clinical depression and it was all down hill after that to present. Not all, but mostly.

 

At the time, I had been using V on occasion for what I thought were muscle spasms, but they could have just as easily been from the casual V use. Here is the dilemma. At the time neither the causal use of V seemed to of any concern to the doctors. Actually they only wanted to know what I was currently taking.

 

Is it possible that my brain chemistry and the undesired effects of the causal V use influenced my negative response to the tramadol? I know big question. I think highly probably. So why would the same thing not happen during W/D?

 

I'm doing nearly all the suggestion you, as well as alabamawerle have mentioned.

 

Although my pain level and prior to the getting below 4mgs V was rarely incapacitating. Although admittedly I'm not able to engage in the very robust physical active I was used to. I take only Tylenol now compared to when I was on K & the 30mg V + the opiates (go figure!).  I'm not sleeping well now & I'm pretty wore out. I'm tempted to rechallange with the tramadol, but from my past hx, the last thing I need is to be more depressed.

 

My PCP who is monitoring my W/D is amazed how well I am doing even at this level even though I don't feel well.

 

I think I lost my main thought idea, so I'll just stop. Hope you get my what I mean.

 

Any ideas??

In response to tramadol................here's my story with the medication....I broke my leg, triple open fracture 7 years ago. I was in a wheelchair and given the supers of pain killers....I should have come off of them around the 4 month mark however I was rejecting the pins in my leg that was holding the rods together and was in agony. ] I did not like the strong pain killers . my husband comes from france and his family is in pharmacy. I asked them when I was there if there was another medication that would work as well but not incapacitate me or make me high as it was sure to be another 6 months of pain before they would take out the pins...they like to wait a minimum of a year before they take them out.....they suggested tramadol. I am not even sure they had it here or prescribed it here much back then. I came home with a six month supply of slow release 100mg and it worked marvellously. I took one a day. and I was able to work a part time job. I was not depressed back then however I was on a weak dose of celexa for the past 8 years up until that point for a nerve problem. so I was getting two serotonin drugs. I had no problem with it. I stopped it after my surgery.

 

cut to when I was in a psych ward for what I thought was severe depression which I now know was tolerance/interdose w/d from loads of lorazepam given to me for a stomach ache.....they tried me on celexa, they thought it would be a great idea since I had been on 5mg of it for 8 years before.....no go....terrible horrible reaction.....wanted to jump out of my body I was so anxious and wired...pure adrenaline anxiety rollercoaster feeling............brain chemistry different.

 

cut to the early stages of my w/d and severe headaches nothing would cure....debilitating...well I had some tramadol and I took it...horrible horrible reaction...anxiety, wanting to jump out of my skin...tried a few more times and same reaction.......different brain chemistry.

 

cut to close to mid taper.....horrible headaches and desperate...gave tramadol another try.....MAGICAL RELIEF and what a mood booster, energizer and pain killer.......it has remained that way.......so brain chemistry changed again....

 

when my w/d doctor suggested a 2.5mg celexa slow release for a few months for the end of my taper, where I am now, I said sure why not, brain chemistry probably changed again.....nope....I had an entirely different reaction this time...still horrible, but this time I became so lethargic, depressed and sad I cried all day long and eventually after 2 weeks I became suicidal. never felt suicidal in my life. brain chemistry changed......again...

 

this was sort of the point of my post...it changes all the time and to understand and recognize maybe the symptoms of each stage and change perhaps we can alter our perception of our limits and abilities, know when to push and when to hold back, when to take a supplement, when to exercise hard and alter our reaction of what we should do and what we should not do based on where we think our brain chemistry is at..... in the beginning yoga was what I needed..high norepinephrine. and I was starving all the time with all that adrenaline and cortisol , waking 3 to 4 times a night to eat, I was eating small meals 10 times a day (thankfully I eat really healthy food or I would have gained 100 pounds!) and my blood sugar was way low all the time.....now norepinephrine is low so I need good old fashioned workouts and I can go more that 2 hours without eating and can sleep through the night which I great but my blood pressur eis so low it s causing serious problems...just can't win!... I was afraid to work out hard because before it would have burned me out.....but I used scientific data to try and gauge where I was at and what I should do and what I was capable of, not based on how I felt per say but on how I thought my chemistry was doing.....if I based everything on what I felt I would literally never leave my house, baby myself all the time and just eat bread.......lol! I just want to take the best care possible of myself based on where I am at in the current moment and that changes , so, so should the things I can do and can't do. I have to constantly keep monitoring and challenging and modifying my life..............it is fucking exhausting! but so far I have managed to keep a part time job for at least half of my w/d and I have been able to socialize and exercise half of the time and eat relatively normally half of the time.....but that is because I challenge my perceptions and abilities constantly. I definitely fuck up a lot too though! but even the fuck ups give me knowledge about what to do and not do so they help tooo. mistakes are just as informative as good decisions. my last mistake only took two weeks or so to fix once i  figured out what my neurochemistry was...if I hadn't done that I would have continued to think it was a bad wave I coulod do nothing about. I made a few mistakes but I sorted it out......at least I think that;s what happened, maybe I was due for a window anyway and it was just coincidence! lol!

 

hope that helps......Alabama.xo

Thanks for the great information on serotonin!

hey fishing guy! were you put on paxil during your withdrawal or before? do you find it helps? I know when the benzo w.d. doctor and I believed I had very low serotonin and I tried the ssri, it actually backfired and sedated me even more as I  was just taking way too many sleeping pills and all the sedation and sleeping pill hangovers on top of the benzo's was just robbing my brain of alertness..i was so depressed and cried all the time.......now that I am getting lower and lower in my doses I am one of the lucky ones so far in that  I am so far feeling better and better and my depression is gone. i hope this trend continues as it has been a long 17 months of tapering....my aggravation and other things are still here but thankfully the depression s gone.....I really believe either the benzo's were robbing me of serotonin and it was restored on lowering them or I was never depressed to begin with and the benzos and sedation caused the depression...maybe a bit of both probably....but I never knew depression before benzo's.........

Hi, I am new to the forum.I fit all the symptoms of high norepinephrine. I am experiencing severe choking sensations,and shortness of breath everyday for about 2months. I was trying to sleep last night and was woken with severe flushing, and the choking sensation followed.I felt as if I was choking to death, it is extremely scary. How did you deal with these symptoms, Iam bed or couch riden . Please. I need some advice,

Mandy

stress management. I worked really hard on how to control myself and my emotional reactions to the things that were happening to me. I kept trying to remind myself that they were physical symptoms and not mental and that it takes time after a rush for the body to get rid of the adrenaline so I would be symptomatic for a period of time even after the rush happened..i used to think my throat was closing all the time and that I would asphyxiate. I would get really bad diarrhea as well.. it was the hardest work I have ever ever ever done.  and I paid really close attention to keeping my blood sugar stable. I got a blood sugar reader from the pharmacy and would check myself when I was feeling panicky and sure enough I was always low in sugar. I checked myself after meals to see which meals had the best impact on me and I checked myself when I was feeling good and sure enough my blood sugar was always great at those times so I strived to keep my blood sugar around that level at all times. at first I checked it like 10 times a day but now I never check it. it gave me a lot of information about my body. I used to have to eat at night when I woke up with the panicky feeling because sure enough I would check myself and I would be so low.......I don't know if the adrenaline levels caused the low blood sugar or the low blood sugars caused the adrenaline I think it was a merrygoround loop effect........either way it's under control now and I can sleep through the night for the first time in 4 years. I rarely have rushes anymore. this is just what worked for me, you may have perfectly normal blood sugar levels......everytime the doctor tested me they came out fine but when I go t the meter it was a different story. I was not hypoglycemic but it was low enough that it was hard on my extra sensitive benzo w.d system. and certainly felt like hypoglycemia! I also got a massage once a week.....very expensive but worth the money.......the students at the massage schools give discounted cheap massages and are great! I also had to stop micromanaging my w.d and being hypervigilant and to start to live a little away from my head.t hat was by far the hardest thing and I still struggle with that. I have a great therapist thank god!

Incredibly poignant post  - and I totally agree with it.

 

First off - tramadol is a "weak" SNRI - with an added bonus in withdrawal.

 

Tramadol works in a number of ways.

 

1) It immediately releases serotonin.  This is different than how SSRI's work - which only serve to reduce the reuptake of the body's own serotonin.  Tramadol says to the receptor - "MAKE SEROTONIN NOW" - and it does.  One of serotonin's mechanisms, besides the obvious one of increasing mood and reducing pain - is to regulate the release of GABA and Glutamate.  Serotonin modulates "when" to  release GABA - and while it's a lesser neurotransmitter than GABA - it acts with it.

2) It inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine.  (Just this combination alone is a huge mood boost.)

3) It is an opioid receptor antagonist - and "acts on" opioid receptors to decrease pain (and anxiety, although this is not the purpose of opiates, they do function as anxiolytics)

4) It is an NMDA receptor antagonist.  - NMDA is a TYPE of Glutamate receptor.  In short, Tramadol suppresses glutamate -  which means you have less damaging glutamate storming your brain while you're on it.

 

Just the addition of serotonin and the reduction of glutamate is a pretty powerful combination in a CNS that is overrun with glutamate and lacking enough GABA. This combo can feel amazing. 

 

I have taken tramadol in withdrawal with the same effect.

 

As far as the neurotransmitters - I have studied and applied science to rebuild brain chemistry with great success.  Every aspect of my mood, cognition, and physical symptoms have benefitted from the following:

 

Vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, B vitamins (including B3, B2, B5, B6, B12, folate, biotin, etc.) , probiotics, and high doses of omega 3's in fish oil. This combination has made me feel 25 again at 20 months off benzos. With the addition of zinc, my libido skyrocketed. And it's not only me.

I made this recommendation to WTBNA - another buddy - and he has noticed the same - especially with zinc.

 

I recently increased my B complex from 1/4 a pill to 1/2 a pill - and along with plenty of dietary protein and magnesium - this combination has made me feel INCREDIBLY good mood-wise. Amino acids from protein are required, but as long as the aminos are there - and the B vitamins and magnesium are there - then serotonin will be made. 

I was eating a very clean, balanced diet of whole foods, but I still could not keep up with the stress demand of withdrawal by getting enough vitamins and minerals from food. But adding them in supplement form was like a lightswitch went off.

 

Thank you to a certain buddy who is a nutritionist and wrote me to tell me to increase my B vitamins - that worked! 

 

The body is simply a biochemical machine.  The body only runs on "chemicals from food". And it absolutely matters what type and amount and quality and nutrient content it contains.  Food - in short -is medicine. Each day you mix and cook food, you are putting different doses and amounts of "medicine" into a healing body in order to try and give it the raw materials to reverse damage.  It absolutely matters what raw materials you ingest. Some of it can be food. Some of it, as needed, can be supplements.

My body burns through magnesium and B every day - and I can totally feel it happen - because when I take another dose of magnesium, I  get a calm and tremendous rush of positive brain energy.  (Mind you - this only started happening at about 15 months off - even though I took it for months prior. I was still sick. And the healing takes time, even with good supplements.)

 

At this point, I'm 20 months off - and while I can tell a number of ways my eyes are still adjusting,etc. I am feeling amazing - with an incredibly sense of well being and energy - which is SO hard to believe.  I have made rapid progress since starting the supplements a few months ago - and it took that long to assimilate those nutrients into producing and increasing serotonin and dopamine and norepinephrine - but it is working big time.

 

In addition, I eat apples, an entire bag of bibb lettuce (for vitamin K), NO MSG, no dairy, and limited wheat.  I do eat wheat and pasta and crackers and bread, just not as much of that. I also eat a lot of nuts and seeds and that was an additional benefit. 

 

Food is fuel and is medicine.  Don't think so?  Try skipping an entire vitamin or mineral in food for a year - you'll wind up sick with some sort of illness.  That being said, that would rarely happen in real life where food is a mix of nutrients and most people are at least typically getting enough basics to "stay alive" - but in a culture where upwards or 80% of people are already magnesium deficient - we are a population that is healing from neurological injury - and our body's needs are even higher.

 

In short - I have run the experiment you are referring to - and YES - certain nutrients and supplements can rebuild neurotransmitters. 

 

:)P

 

Parker,

 

I agree with you 100 % on the body being a chemical factory that needs sound nutrition.

 

I'm not asking for medical advise but you bring up an interesting point I can't seem to find a reasonable answer to. It is and I'm not quite sure how to word this. I have to give a bit of back ground.

 

Over the past 20 years, I have been given at least 1 drug in every class available for symptoms of conditions that are similar to all of the BZ W/D ones. In all cases I have not done well, that includes tramadol. I could give more detail, but maybe you might understand what I asking.

 

RE: the tramadol. I was given it in conjunction with an SSRI for a perceived increase in pain level after a slip & fall. I fell in to a profound clinical depression and it was all down hill after that to present. Not all, but mostly.

 

At the time, I had been using V on occasion for what I thought were muscle spasms, but they could have just as easily been from the casual V use. Here is the dilemma. At the time neither the causal use of V seemed to of any concern to the doctors. Actually they only wanted to know what I was currently taking.

 

Is it possible that my brain chemistry and the undesired effects of the causal V use influenced my negative response to the tramadol? I know big question. I think highly probably. So why would the same thing not happen during W/D?

 

I'm doing nearly all the suggestion you, as well as alabamawerle have mentioned.

 

Although my pain level and prior to the getting below 4mgs V was rarely incapacitating. Although admittedly I'm not able to engage in the very robust physical active I was used to. I take only Tylenol now compared to when I was on K & the 30mg V + the opiates (go figure!).  I'm not sleeping well now & I'm pretty wore out. I'm tempted to rechallange with the tramadol, but from my past hx, the last thing I need is to be more depressed.

 

My PCP who is monitoring my W/D is amazed how well I am doing even at this level even though I don't feel well.

 

I think I lost my main thought idea, so I'll just stop. Hope you get my what I mean.

 

Any ideas??

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking - but I will share this from my personal withdrawal and recovery experience.

 

I learned that for me, along the way, different substances affected me differently. There is so much change going on in the reversal of damage, that if you were to add NOTHING to the mix, you would still experience a myriad of changes.  One of the most challenging things my entire first 15 months of recovery is that I was never the same from one day to the next.  I lived through an endless amount of old memories, moods, weird bodily sensations. I had no consistency - and between that and d/r/d/p, I felt like I didn't have any hold on reality. (That's gone. )

 

During this time, I was on Remeron and took vitamins and minerals with different reactions throughout these 20 months. And I learned a lot.

 

The amount of Remeron I took after I jumped off benzos (15mg) did nothing but help me sleep.

At 3 months off, this same amount (15mg) made me feel INCREDIBLY HAPPY - the point of euphoria.  I knew it was time to start tapering it. In short, I had healed from benzos while on it, and so the same 15mg that had only been helping me sleep was now causing me to feel mood effects. 

 

By 6months off, I was on 7.5mg and had tapered to half.  By 8  months off, I was on 3.75 mg.  This entire time, I was healing underneath the Remeron.

 

By 10 months off, I was still on 3.75 and while I had struggled in months previous, now - all of a sudden, I felt that daily euphoria from this lower dose.  It was consistent - every day. So  - I realized it was time to start tapering it again.  I tapered off of it by a little longer than a year.

 

In the meantime - I tried vitamins/minerals.  I have learned that it's not just "what you take" but in what dose and in what combination that helps the body rebuild neurotransmitters.

 

I tried B vitamins early off and they just revved me. Mind you - I took a whole pill - I was just trying things willy nilly. It didn't "work'.

 

At a year off, I started the magnesium. It helped right away - in about 45 minutes. And I realized I was on to something. Over the next 8 months, I added SLOWLY low doses of vitamins and increased from there - B, D, zinc, fish oil, and magnesium.  NOW - at this point in healing - they were and are a HUGE help.

 

I learned that there is SO much going on in healing that you can't notice change overnight . And you can't always tell how something is really affecting you or even if it will affect you the same way in 6 more months. What might not be of much benefit today may be a HUGE benefit in another few months. This also happened to me with fish oil.  I started taking it earlier off and got MINOR benefit. I eventually quit it out of being lazy.  Then - I added it back at about 17 months off - and WOW - what a huge difference. I started feeling amazing within about a week.

 

I have kept data on all of this so that I can include it in a book I'd like to write. 

 

My biggest point here is that there is no way to know how things are going to affect you in healing unless you try them - and they may cause different things at differnet times in healing. 

 

My advice - if I can give any - is to do a lot of reading on your symptoms as you heal - and apply knowledge in a smart way. If you try vitamins - try them slowly - cutting them into 1/4th's and taking only small amounts first. Don't take a whole vitamin B like I did and expect it to do anything overnight.  It may be too much and smaller doses may help begin to rebuild serotonin if you're eating right - and THEN larger doses may really be of benefit. But I feel too many buddy "go for the gold" and overshoot a vitamin - and then claim they got revved - and likely they did. It's much more comfortable to take small doses and see how you do.

 

There is no way for me or anyone to understand exactly why your body does what it does or reacts the way it does in healing.  You must be intuitive and try to approach it slowly and let your body be a guide.  What affects you today will not affect you the same in 6 months or a year.  That is the nature of healing in general. Constant change as we regain health.

 

:)Parker