Sometimes Faster is BETTER

This is the last thread I'm ever going to post. Never say never of course, but that's the plan. I want to share something that happened to me. I was holding in hell at 9 mgs of Valium getting worse and worse, just miserable, unable to function, bed ridden in terrible pain and mind bending anxiety. I tried cutting .5 mgs ever two weeks and got down to 8.5 feeling even worse and just terrified, afraid to go forward afraid to stay still. Then I forgot to take my dose one night and to my amazement the next day I felt much better. Two days later I was a wreck but that one day was a revelation. My doctor decided to take me off quickly. We started cutting .5 every 4 days for 1 mg then slowed it to .5/week which I used till 1 mg, then cut .25/week till off.

 

Here's what I want to share: I did not slow down regardless of the symptoms. I had some terrible ones very frightening episodes, I did not slow down.... so what happened? The symptoms passed. I would feel a bit better with every cut and then worse towards the end of it. Symptoms I would have at one dosage would just go away with the next cut. Now that I'm off, some of the symptoms that plagued me from 3mgs down are gone. Others come and go and I'm only briefly off so who knows but I don't feel worse as time passes. Well, I did feel better when I first came off as compared to how I felt say 4 days into it  but now that I'm past when my next cut would have been, it seems that I'm feeling better again.

 

I didn't "listen" to my body assuming that bad symptoms meant I needed to slow down. They did not mean that at all. They were just something I was passing through.

 

Had I "listened to my body" assuming symptoms meant hold, I would still be at 8 mgs in hell. Now I have my life back. I'm not back to normal by any stretch of the imagination. I expect that to take 3 to 5 years honestly, that's what it takes, if it's less I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

I'm not doing any worse than people who have come off going very slowly.

 

I have not come across this information anywhere on this Forum so I wanted to pass it on.

 

In my experience, my personal experience and the experience of some others who sadly start having symptoms and think it means slow down, but for a time feel better, this is how it can work.

 

If going at a snail's pace is painful and frustrating and you just want off, it might not be the worst thing you'll ever do for yourself but only you can decide. It's scary at times, the symptoms can be severe, but they passed for me as I cut.

 

Just some food for thought.

 

All the best to everyone.

m

Hmm...  I may have had a similar experience.

 

At first I made relatively large cuts and even though I had some bad days it didn't last long. Then I got tangled up with benzo buddies, read the horror stories, and scared myself into a much slower taper.

 

I've already prepared capsules for my next cut, but perhaps after that I'll try larger cuts. I can always go back to a slower taper.

 

One thing that always troubled me was to read about the people who taper at an excruciatingly slow pace, suffer greatly all the while, and then have protracted symptoms for a year afterward. I guess I have talked myself into that scenario also.

 

I only wish there were more stories about having an easier time of it whilst doing a fast taper. Perhaps those people are afraid to jinx their luck or incur the wrath of other posters who are having a harder time of it?

quote, I only wish there were more stories about having an easier time of it whilst

doing a fast taper.

 

Marina, ZigZag and all BB

 

I have been cutting back 3 months and have gone relatively fast

.50 or .25 mg cuts. It was not easy at first, but has improved. Time

does help with tapering.

 

The sxs have been pretty much inter dose and not much relief for

long from dosing. But sxs are getting better. I just tough it out

until things calm down. I have gone 12hrs between doses and I

do get symptomatic but it is tolerable. 12hrs is a long time with X.

 

The last couple of weeks I noticed when I dose I don't only get no

relief I feel worse in a different way. So later in the day and evening

time when the X wears off I feel better...to a degree. But I have noticed

a pattern of dosing and difference in negative drug effect. I think my system

is just tired of the drug.

 

So not to go on too much I am going to give it go at jumping next week.

I have been at .25 2x a day for a week. A few days will tell the tale.

 

A big difference with my fast improvement this time is no alcohol and I

stopped Zolpidem over 3 weeks ago with no increase in sys, actually less.

 

By no means am I feeling great, but I feel at this point in my taper I am getting

no where and it's time for a change in strategy. I'm tired of this taper and think

in some cases it just prolongs the problem. It has with me.

 

Best wishes to all no matter the path you choose.

 

Hi Marina and Zig Zag

 

I find your posts encouraging.  I slowed way down at 12 mg and didn't feel better so I increased back to 1.8 a month and didn't really feel much worse.  When I got to 6 mg I did slow down to 1.2 a month.  Now I am on vacation so I slowed again to .28 in 2 weeks but plan to increase again when I get home.  I think this is a fine line.  For me nausea has gone away asi have gotten lower but I now have some pretty serious back and leg pain.  I hope this goes away as I get lower.

 

Have you both had physical symptoms that got better the lower you went?  What about agorophobia and brain fog?

 

I do need to keep working so I have a distraction.

 

Thanks for your post,

 

Golden

I"ve been holding for over three weeks this time because of tachycardia and frequent pac's that landed me in the hospital after making three cuts that were 10 days apart each time. So now my doctor wants me to wait before cutting again and even though my heart is doing fine now, my withdrawal is getting worse and worse at this hold. I take .25 of xanax in the morning that does nothing for the withdrawal and then I take .125 at night that helps for about a half hour if at all. This past week has been horrible. So holding has been torture.I was beginning to think I'm going mad. My body is going through hell. My arms and legs are weak and shaky constantly. And I have terrible head and neck pain for three days now. If my heart didn't get crazy I would have made two more cuts of .0625 each by now. So I'm seeing now that holding doesn't always make a person stabilize. I felt better a week after the cut than I do now at three weeks. I'm thinking that I'm on just enough xanax to keep the withdrawal going. So everything that you are saying makes perfect sense. I could deal with just about anything except the erratic heart palps though. I am on a real high dose of a beta blocker for irregular heartbeats that I had for many years and that didn't even help the tachycardia from the tapering. I'm in a tough situation that I don't know how to get out of.

Stevie

I wish I had just gotten my taper over with. My entire taper was about 9 months and I felt just as bad the entire way through as I do now.

I wish I had done it in 3 months.

This is interesting.....depending on one's own experience...I have thought since I only dose every 48 hours then I could speed things up.....looking forward to reading more.

DDMM

Have you both had physical symptoms that got better the lower you went?  What about agorophobia and brain fog?

 

I had very bad, painful spams that only lasted a day or two. They were in my sholder, back, neck, feet, and hip/groin - but not all at the same time. Very painful but short lived. At this point in my taper my muscle pains are mild compared to what they were earlier. So far, I must conclude that my symptoms are getting better even though I'm still in my taper.

 

I never had extreme agoraphobia, but I still find myself wanting to stay out of social situations where I can't easily escape if I get symptoms. As for brain fog, I never did get that. I have had some light headedness or mild dizzyness, but that seems to be largely gone for now.

This is interesting.....depending on one's own experience...I have thought since I only dose every 48 hours then I could speed things up.....looking forward to reading more.

DDMM

 

Perhaps someone should start a "fast taper" thread. I don't want to because I'm superstitious and don't want to P*** off the benzo gods.

I was holding in hell at 9 mgs of Valium getting worse and worse, just miserable, unable to function, bed ridden in terrible pain and mind bending anxiety. I tried cutting .5 mgs ever two weeks and got down to 8.5 feeling even worse

 

That is strange. I know of several members (myself included) that had one hell of a time dealing with cutting down from 9 mg to 8.5 mg.

 

I am a usual 10% give or take cutter and I actually had to cut down to 8.75 mg and hold for a week because going straight from 9 mg to 8.5 mg made me an ADD nutcase.

 

Hell, I held 8.5 mg until I actually starting feeling worse (about 2 weeks) and the tiny little drop (like 6%) to 8 mg is absolutely going for my jugular. My damn abdominals are so locked up that my body is forcing me to take shallow breaths. I can push through about any type of pain/head screwage, but robbing my body of the ability to breath efficiently has really struck a primal chord with me.

 

My cuts are definitely getting more and more intense, even though the percentages are much smaller.

 

Best of luck Marina on the rest of your journey.  I sure wish you would reconsider and maybe pop in now and then to share your experience.  This board could sure use it. 

 

I was forced to taper in 3 1/2 months and honestly I am doing well.  Felt much better a 3 weeks out after my last dose and I am slowly but surely getting better. 

 

I actually feel almost normal when I can keep my stress level down.  That is a bit difficult with my family ensuring I stay stressed.  I really think I set that up tho during my 3 years in the Klono Koma.  Now they think I should just let them rob me blind and say nothing.  Now that I am waking up that gets less and less likely but my symptoms go nuts after challenges and subside when I am peaceful.  And yes peaceful means only dealing with what I have to and letting the other crap go.

 

This is a very individualized thing for everyone.  No one size fits all here.  Listen to the experiences of those who have gone before you but make your own decisions. 

 

The goal is finding you, your soul, your humor and your joy at the end of this rainbow.

 

Brightest Blessings to all!

 

China 

I wish I had just gotten my taper over with. My entire taper was about 9 months and I felt just as bad the entire way through as I do now.

I wish I had done it in 3 months.

 

That is my point exactly, why drag it out to inevitable end?

Get done with the drug, deal with it and move on.

 

With long term high dose hard cases it's wise to taper

slow to keep serious problems from happening.

 

I have been long term but not at high dose. Most of the time

I was at 1 to 1.5 mg. Just of late increased a bit to 2mg for a

short time. 

 

I 100% believe the faster and safest you can get the drug out

of your system the sooner you will be better. I went from 2mg

per day to .50 in 2.5 months and not doing too bad.

 

I don't have cog fog, muscle/nerve pain dp/dr, spasms, GI issues

ect ect. Tingling in hands and feet, brain zaps, sleep disturbance

and general CNS sensitivity to stress are my worst and tolerable

symptoms.

 

I know everybody is different. But some of the ashton taper thing

is a little over done, especially for short term users.

 

Many of us long term can do just fine cutting back for a short time

and moving on with life.

 

ELMO

Amazing...I just posted the same thoughts on another thread. Here they are again 

 

This is a great topic...

 

Dosage has certainly been on my mind lately.

 

Over the last 2.5 months I have reduced down to 0.375mgs from 0.625mgs of a clonazepam called Rivotril. I am doing a liquid titration tapper (100mL) so this is equivalent to -40%.

 

I had some pretty good w/d sxs at the beginning but they stabilized and now I get what I call fringe w/d sxs but they are manageable.

 

I am currently reducing 1% every 3 days with little or no w/d sxs and I am continuously debating if I should speed that up.

 

Cheers,

Adie

This is all interesting.. You are all brave. As Chinadoll mentioned we are all different. I'm on such a low dose it's ridiculous from what I can see. I have tested it though and I get VERY ill cutting at the rate that Dr.Ashton recommends. I'm cutting so slow to prevent side effects that I'm wondering if it's worth it. I'm a walking zombie more than I have ever been in my whole life! I'm very debilitated. Brain fog/DP/DR/Agoraphobia even now. I don't suffer from my original issues of panic/anxiety.. I'm just completely "out of it".

 

I'm cutting at a rate of 1% every 4 days. Any faster I swear I feel worse... Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the times I tried cutting faster I just ran in to a random patch of withdrawal effects.

 

This is a living hell. I'm also battling a sudden onset of depression?? I feel it's caused by my life being on a complete hold.

 

Anyhow, this is truly an interesting topic. I'd like to follow it my self....  Any evidence that cutting too slow can cause Protracted withdrawal?? Or is that just random.

 

Thanks all!

 

 

Fonz 

 

 

Anyhow, this is truly an interesting topic. I'd like to follow it my self....  Any evidence that cutting too slow can cause Protracted withdrawal?? Or is that just random.

 

A well conducted scientific study would answer this question. Anecdotes and speculation cannot.

 

My guess is that like everything else, there is a distribution of results that follow a bell curve - meaning that it is definitely not random.

 

One problem on this forum is that the hard cases are over-represented, and we never hear many easy withdrawal stories. So, the conventional wisdom is that a slow or very slow taper is the only way to go.

 

I was on a fast taper before I joined BB, and then slowed way down because of all the horror stories, and because of the conventional wisdom. I even decided that a long period of withdrawal AFTER stopping is normal, and resigned myself to this "fact". Now I'm rethinking the taper rate and the post taper withdrawal idea.

 

If I had not joined BB, I would be off Valium by now because I was going at a fast rate. The only way for me to know what will work for me is to try things. My capsules are already made up for my cut from 1.8MG/day to 1.6 MG/day, so I will use them. But I'm going to think very hard about the cut after this one. If I cut too much and suffer for it, I can always go back to the slower rate.

 

Few have the courage Marina showed when she disregarded the conventional wisdom. I don't expect withdrawal to be pain free, so I think I can persist and not updose at the first sign of trouble.

 

Because there are no good, scientific studies we are all just guessing. There is no doubt that the BB preferred method is to taper very slowly, trying for a pain free withdrawal. Reading the posts, it doesn't work anyway! A few times I've seen people wonder if a very slow taper might be counterproductive. That's a good question.

 

I expect somebody who tried a rapid taper to beat me up over this post. I don't care, because one anecdote dose not prove a theory. In fact, the knowledge that one person succeeded with a rapid taper disproves the BB theory that everybody should taper at a very slow rate.

Hi fonz,

 

I not qualified to provide any real advice but I don’t think you have anything to worry about in regard to cutting 1% every 4 days.

 

Cheers,

Adie

Hi ZigZag,

 

I can see where you are coming form. IN my case I was blind sided by the Benzo c%#p I was prescribed. No excuses on my end I should have done my due diligence but at the end of the day, I had NO IDEA this class of drugs WAS so BAD.

 

When I realized I was becoming dependent on it I just stopped and though my time on the %$#@ was not all that long and the dosage was not that high I still had a pretty good w/d episode.

 

So not wanting to destroy my brain I started the tapper and being the “bonehead” that I am I tapered to fast and had some pretty good w/d sxs again. So I slowed down and stabilized pretty quick.

 

NOW the problem I currently have is that I now have minimal sxs and I am constantly debating if I should speed this taper up. I have all the questions that have been asked and wondered about in other posts and comments. Am I going to have the sxs anyway, am I going to have extended problems after the tapper, If I speed the taper up what will happen, does the relatively low dose I was on and the relatively short time on the drug have any impact at all on the severity of the w/d sxs...I mean, it goes on forever.

 

Everyone is so different in regard to how they react to this class of drug when they withdrawal there is really no way to definitively answer those questions.

 

So in my case I plan to "cautiously" speed things up a bit. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS FOR ANYONE ELSE.

 

Cheers,

Adie

Any evidence that cutting too slow can cause Protracted withdrawal?? Or is that just random.

 

It is just random fonz. But in my case I feel the longer I drag this out

the more protracted it becomes. I say this because I have gotten to a

point where I am better but I feel I'm dragging it out the more time I taper.

 

There is a time to cut and run. That choice is up to each of us.

 

What amazes me is short time users, I.E. 1/2 weeks to a month and taper

6+ months. That simply invites long term problems.

 

I have been on xanax 8 years and have made vast improvements this time

in less than 3 months. I attribute that to a couple of healthy life changes and

mental resolve.

 

ELMO

 

 

I also was tapering faster and got terrified when I joined BB. Slowed down because I got too scared. I think my next cut will increase to .125mg as an experiment

Marina

Congratulations on your getting off Valium. I wonder if you were suffering from toxicity and just needed to get off rapidly. In my experience I went from 2-4mg of Ativan a day to about .7mg in 5 or 6 weeks and felt well until hitting .7. About that time I discovered the Ashton manual and crossed over to Valium in a couple of weeks and continued to taper during the crossover without problems. I then dropped 1mg every week or two feeling crummy after each cut down to 2mg. Below 2mg I felt awful and was considering a leave of absence from work. When I did an updose and then went to daily small cuts I again felt well and am now almost off but it has taken a very long time. I've often thought about speeding things back up but have resisted doing so as I am feeling well. So, my best times getting off benzos have been when I was going much faster and also much slower than the usual recommended speed. Go figure. Everybody certainly is different. I hope you stick around awhile and let everybody know how you're doing. Also, I wonder if there is any identifiable difference between benzo withdrawal symptoms and what is thought to be benzodiazepine toxicity. Your input may shed some light on this. Sometimes I think the longer I am involved with getting off benzos, the less I really know about it.

Bart

THank you, nice to meet all of you! SO happy you seem to be doing quite well.

 

I almost didn't post this because I was afraid of the repercussions. I tried to discuss something a while back and after getting batted around a bit, the thread quickly became about slow tapering and supplements.

 

Some of you mentioned that you would like a thread for those not rapid tapering so much as reasonable rate tapering as opposed to being in the area with the C/Ts. Feel free to use this one! It would be my pleasure to be able to contribute in some way to this board. It did give me a lot of support when I was feeling bad, I met some lovely giving wonderful people, but no one to support me when it came to coming off not using the turtle taper method. All I did was the Ashton method by the book, that's all.

 

I've been through a lot with this drug, I was in terrible suffering till I got down to about 5 mgs, again, never stopping to hold for symptoms to abate, so I do expect for it to take some time for me to heal completely. I don't fear it, I know what to do and what not to do, not because I was made frightened by the board but from my own experience and I hope to do fairly well. The key for me is always to keep pressing on. People talk about "doing too much" well, I've not found that to be true. We have symptoms that come and go, we hit a bad patch and associate it with whatever is happening at the time. I'm not saying there aren't some triggers. When I drink real coffee, it seems to take me forever to fall asleep, even when I drink it earlier in the day, so i'm having decaf, small sacrifice. Food sensitivities can arise I know. Anyway, if anyone finds it helpful, please, stay!!

 

I really wish I had known you guys while I was going through my taper. It would have been nice to have the support! Now you can support each other right out in the open!!

 

Have a great day everyone, light hearts, light symptoms!

xm

 

 

I went real fast to start before I had much knowledge of how severe withdrawal could be. My sxs got real bad tho, but for cutting half my dose in about a month I'm glad to have that much done. I am holding to hopefully level out some. My sxs were severe and freaking me out, tho they were the first ones I had and it threw me a bit. I've experienced the waves and have felt them come and go and understanding is key to enduring. I have a friend who c/t tho and his sxs were way more severe. I'd love to do the last amount as fast. Not sure how I'm gonna go about it. For anyone who fast is working for that's awesome! It was goin good for me to an extent, but I felt I needed to hold a little. Do what works for you, no one knows what your feeling and can handle but you. Some might wish they could go at a faster pace and it might discourage them to not be you and others probly have a lot of experience and are just concerned. All in all I believe everyone here wants us all at the end of this safely. Whatever pace you go, I hope you have the strength to endure and press forward. Fast healing to all!

I look at for what it is...a war with the drug and your body.

 

In war you advance as fast as the resistance allows you and

never give up ground you have taken.

 

If you hit resistance (the enemy benzo) slow down and fight

through the resistance and keep moving forward.

 

Good topic Marina,

 

 

Hi Marina,

 

I do think there are more of us around then the posts would imply.  Posting positive progress, especially after a faster taper, does not get as much press as doom and gloom does. 

 

I do understand there are a lot of buddies out there having a hard time of it who need the support and if a long taper works for someone I am not going to tell them any different.  I have wondered tho how tolerance works when you taper for months or years. 

 

It is a shame that in a forum like this you have to be afraid to post something.  The more people that post their experiences the more well rounded the information pool will be.  I don't think Dr. Ashton ever meant her manual to be used as a Bible.  Quoting it blindly without acknowledging all the variable in a person's particular situation just makes people sound like robots.  Especially when you replying to a new buddy who has only been on a benzo for 2 or 3 weeks.  Telling them to reinstate and taper for 6 months just sounds ridiculous but you see it all the time.  (Just my opinion) 

 

I am not board bashing by any means.  I have found a lot of comfort, knowledge and power here to slay the benzo dragon.  So I hang around and try to interject some positivity here and there.

 

 

ChinaDoll

 

 

 

 

 

 

I almost didn't post this because I was afraid of the repercussions. I tried to discuss something a while back and after getting batted around a bit, the thread quickly became about slow tapering and supplements.

 

Marina, I've noticed this bashing tendency a few times on various threads/postings. There is a conventional wisdom on BB that a rapid taper is bad, and many advocate a slow or even a very slow micro-taper. The preferred taper rate seems to be slower than even that in the Ashton Manual. Also, Ashton advocates jumping at 0.5 to 1.0 MG Valium, saying that such a low dose has no therapeutic value, and merely prolongs dependency.

 

So the notion that a rapid taper should be avoided at all costs has become an urban legend on BB. However, the stories make it clear that many who are on a slow taper suffer greatly all during the taper. I've seen people suggest that it might be better to accelerate the process on the theory that because you are going to suffer anyway, why not speed up the process? This attitude is always shouted down by those who claim a very slow taper is the only way to go.

 

I'm surprised that this thread has lasted as long as it has lasted without some of the very slow taper crowd coopting it with horror stories. I've often wondered if those who had success with a rapid taper simply avoid posting, either because they lose interest after their success,  or perhaps because they don't want to incur the wrath of opposing the conventional wisdom.

 

I have no problem with someone doing a very slow taper if that's what they want to do. But, it is a disservice to others to present that as the only option. I'm sure both ways work for different people. Even a cold turkey works for some, although if it can be dangerous for some long term or high dose users because of seizures. Seizures are rare however.

 

I think that people who use a very slow taper feel threatened by suggestions that not everybody needs a very slow taper. The reaction seems to be to shout them down. Perhaps we all try to project our own experience onto everyone else when each story is just that - one person's story. Those who heal fast lose interest in BB, leaving behind those who do not heal fast. That's what I think skews what we read here toward the worst case side of the spectrum.

 

My appeal  is for balance. The only opinion that is not tolerated on BB seems to be the opinion that a rapid taper is bad.