Have you changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering?

I've recently changed from the cut and hold method to microtapering.  I'm feeling a little strange while MTing and wondered whether others had experienced this too.  My head feels a bit strange (indescribable feeling) and my joints have become painful at times. 

 

How was it when you changed over to MTing?  Did your mind/body get used to it straight away or was there a period of adjustment?  Are there some people simply who don't take to the MTing method?

 

I'm trying to work out my mental and physical reactions to the change in methods.

 

Thanks

I like cut and hold.  I tried MT and it seemed like my body never got the break it needed.  With MT the brain has to adjust every day to a new reduction.  With cut&hold the brain has far less to deal with, makes the adjustment and is rested and prepared for the next reduction.

 

I just felt like I didn't get any relief with the slow-drip MT method.

 

Vribble

I changed from cut and hold to daily small cuts last spring. I had been cutting too fast and hit a wall following the Ashton manual which led to my decision to change methods. What helped was about a 10% updose and then I tapered UP on a daily basis until I felt better. From here I started back down and have had an easier time of it so far. There are a lot of ways you can do this. I would encourage you to try different things when problems arise. We all seem to vary so much.

I like cut and hold.  I tried MT and it seemed like my body never got the break it needed.  With MT the brain has to adjust every day to a new reduction.  With cut&hold the brain has far less to deal with, makes the adjustment and is rested and prepared for the next reduction.

 

I just felt like I didn't get any relief with the slow-drip MT method.

 

 

Vribble

 

It's really interesting how people have different experiences during tapering. For me, my body just couldn't handle that "shock" of a tablet cut, but has adapted quite well to a daily taper. However, everyone has to use whatever method works best for them.

 

Celeste, in answer to your question, when I first started my daily taper I did notice that I had a bit of muscle weakness, which I mainly noticed in my shoulders when I went to the gym. I'm not sure how long that lasted for, but I don't notice it now and I've been MTing since October. I also had a very low grade headache at first, but I think that went away after a few weeks. I'm not sure if either of those things were related to changing from a tablet cut to a daily taper though, or whether they were some left over s/x of the tablet cuts I'd been trying to do.

 

If you are still doing a 0.01mg daily taper that should be slow enough for you to not experience too many s/x, so hopefully what you are feeling will settle with time.

I did cut-and-hold from 15 mg V down to 9 mg, then hit a wall.  Over the next 2 years I made 4 attempts to get from 9 down to 8.5...all failed.

 

I started MT in Oct '12, and am now down to 6.5 mg.  It has been a very smooth ride, no significant sxs...even sleep good most of the time.

 

Before I started MT, I had resigned myself to being stuck on 9 mg V for the rest of my life.  Hopefully MTing will let me completely recover from benzo dependence.

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

 

For me microtapering isn't a particular method either.  I just take it to mean a taper with tiny daily reductions in dose - as in the word, "micro".  Any synonym of "tiny" would do as well for me since I don't attach any special significance to the combination of the commonly used words, "micro" and "taper".  I'm not sure going slowly or making tiny cuts even rises to the definition of a method (as in Ashton) so I'll quit using the expression.

 

I look forward to Colin's remarks.  I didn't understand how to titrate properly so I did a kind of makeshift water taper - very crude and not precise.  I'm about done with the taper (I hope anyway) but still interested in how it works.

 

 

 

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

 

For me microtapering isn't a particular method either.  I just take it to mean a taper with tiny daily reductions in dose - as in the word, "micro".  Any synonym of "tiny" would do as well for me since I don't attach any special significance to the combination of the commonly used words, "micro" and "taper".  I'm not sure going slowly or making tiny cuts even rises to the definition of a method (as in Ashton) so I'll quit using the expression.

 

I look forward to Colin's remarks.  I didn't understand how to titrate properly so I did a kind of makeshift water taper - very crude and not precise.  I'm about done with the taper (I hope anyway) but still interested in how it works.

 

 

 

The term 'Microtapering' is a method that Jana Hill of BDR has coined. I don't understand the first thing about what it is or what her method is about but there is clearly a great deal of confusion about her term vs Titration. Apparently it had differing definitions for many different members. It would be helpful to clear this up so we are all talking apples to apples. We don't support microtapering.

Btw, Vribble. You should find all the information you need about titration on the stickies at the top of this board. Colin's comments will not be explaining titration but more about the confusion members seem to be having regarding the term "microtapering".

I like cut and hold.  I tried MT and it seemed like my body never got the break it needed.  With MT the brain has to adjust every day to a new reduction.  With cut&hold the brain has far less to deal with, makes the adjustment and is rested and prepared for the next reduction.

 

I just felt like I didn't get any relief with the slow-drip  MT method.

 

Vribble

 

Exactly the same for me Vribble, I was feeling highly sensitised to even the smallest of cut and felt like my brain and body never got a break to 'readjust' from the decrease in dose.  With the cut and hold, I know I get a punch on days 3-4, then again at 10, but with the MT I just felt sick on the stomach all the time, at first I thought it was the mix (I used full fat milk), but then realised I was training my body and brain into hypersensitivity.  Now I can cut between 0.75mgs - 1mg and not hurt too badly, but on MT was struggling with a 0.050 drop daily.

 

Guess it's like everyone says, it's very individual.  I plan on doing a cut and hold all the way down, so when I get to 0.50mgs, I will jump as I will be very accustomed to that drop rate.

 

Staffy

 

PS.  As I had complained on the Valium blog about members refer to the cut and hold as a 'cut and suffer', I've modified the quote Vribble   Don't wont to be accused of being a hypocrite.

I wasn't coping with cut and hold so did a lot of reading on microtapering over at BDR.

 

I spoke to Jana and other members and everyone was really helpful, but as I am on so many meds, BMT(pat.pend) was not possible as the medications, plus I smoke, which made it impossible to monitor my symptoms.

 

Not wanting to go back to cut and hold, I started daily cuts anyway, starting with small cuts and gradually increasing them, but only by tiny bits, given the difficulties monitoring myself.

 

The only problem I am having is that I get obsessive about whether I am getting symptoms again, it's too hard to tell. That worrying in itself can bring on symptoms.

 

I am actually able to reduce faster than I could when on cut and hold.

 

 

I think there is a great deal of confusion between 'microtapering' and 'titration'. Titration is using a liquid to make small cuts daily. 'Microtapering' is not a method we promote/support here, nor have we coined the phrase, nor do any of our team member know what this is referring to.

 

If you're using liquid titration this is not necessarily "microtapering". In fact, Colin will be addressing this issue with the forum very soon.

I must be doing liquid titration then.

I just do it slightly different. I make up a 1mg-100ml milk solution in a jar, I generally do 400mls a day, 2 x 2mg vallys.

My dose is around 2.4mg, and I take 80 odd mls three times a day, just by measuring out the 80+mls into a smaller jar and necking that. The leftover milk goes towards the next days's batch.

 

BMT is proper to BenzoDetoxRecovery, and is a specific type of taper which isn't widely pupblicised on the boards, as Jana is keen for people not to misinterpret the taper and make themselves ill if they get it wrong, by over tapering. She tends to deal with each taper individually.

 

As I am feeling quite rough at the moment, with regards to cutting small amounts and I admit I did the so called MT when I joined the forum as I had read others had done so.

 

Every day I have had w/d sxs which are bearable it is when I get to between days 6 and 8 that I feel rough, so now I learn that  MT is not promoted/supported on the forum and yet it is still being suggested by members, hence that is why I did it.

 

When I c/o to Valium it was at 4.5 mg and I started to 'MT'  at 3.8 mg and have done so ever since thinking that it would be easier with regards to w/d sxs, I have also had times when it was suggested that I held or do a smaller cut depending on how I felt.

 

What do you call a taper when one is using both tablets and liquid Valium, this has totally confused me. as I was on the cut and hold method for such a short time it is difficult to say whether I am better off doing smaller cuts or doing the cut and hold.

 

I would have much preferred to have done the cut and hold right to the end, but after reading what others had suggested and had done I carried on, and then one comes to the time when they reach 2 mg, one is it possible to cut and hold. two what % does one cut and how many days do you leave before your next cut, what I am saying may ruffle some feathers and I am sorry if I have.

 

But at the same time it would be good to see that it is clarified what is what and I am sure Colin will do so in time.

 

I have also seen that some members like myself have wondered whether it is advisable to go back to a cut and hold at a small dose as I am at now which is 2.08 mg of Valium.

 

DD     and confused

Hi Journey

 

Hope you are well under the circumstances of tapering that is.

 

So what method is mine called when I am using both tablets and liquid but I am cutting .02 mg daily and I am now at 2.08 mg of Valium, and  I was told my % was to high. that it may be better if I did smaller cuts of which I have done or held.

 

DD

Hi dd58

 

Sorry you are feeling quite rough.

It's all very confusing isn't it.

I say my taper is probably titration without the cylinder.

 

Do you think your wd symptoms could possibly be from the cut and hold?

I found that symptoms would be much less linear with cut and hold. With daily cuts if something goes wrong, it can easily be corrected, provided it is dealt with early.

 

With cut and hold, symptoms can come and go and come back again, and be really unpredictable, and we may not have fully recovered from the last cut, but, I promote people doing what is right for them.

 

I think daily cuts fail for some because the cut is too big.

 

BMT is not supported on here, and I think many people, including me, used the word microtapering just to cover daily or even every other day cuts. I think its a words, thing, or a semantics thing.

BMT or microtapering. It seems that BMT, is not the only daily taper regime used by daily taperers.

 

When doing dialy cuts, like cut and hold, it seems some people can get away with bigger cuts than others.

Cut size may also need adjusting the lower down in the dose you go.

 

The only concern I would have with using pills and liquid is that there may be a slight variation in dose between them. This would complicate a daily taper possibly. Don't be scared though, because as you are using the two dailly, you have consistancy in dose, minus the cut of course.

 

Cut and hold would hav taken me forever, and I was worried about how each cut would hit  me, as I seemed to start feeling the later ones, even though they were only 0.125mg.

 

Some people do cut and hold from 2mg down to 0mg, but many suffer PAWS.

 

You havent ruffled my feathers, you are just trying to clarify.

 

Daily tapers look like a smooth "C" with a long tail, whereas cut and hold tapers look like jagged 'steps' with a 'jump' at the end. With daily tapers, you slide off, with cut and hold you jump.

The bigger the jump, the more of a shock, and longer recovery time.

 

It is claimed that so long as you cut daily at a rate which your GABA receptors cannot pick up, you are able to lose more benzo.

 

I may sound biased in favour of daily cuts, but that's cos the benzo anxiety has meant that I am too scared of the 'steps' and the final 'jump.

Thanks Journey

 

I have just looked at my chart this is what I did from the first of January and my dose was 2.28 mg  now I am at 2.08 and have had odd days of .01 mg, some will say this is to fast it may well be, but either way you can have days where you get hit if that is the right word to use.

 

I am new to this tapering at a proper rate as I have c/t twice and suffered the consequences one being a 4 month stay in a hospital that is why I joined as the medical profession have no idea with regards that when one c/t they can have w/d sxs but we won't go there.

 

It was back in September when I started the daily cutting, so it can not be the cut and hold sorry I never thought of putting dates in, I am also on other meds Mirtazapine and Lithium.

 

Hubby feels for me personally as I am really sensitive to drugs that what I am doing is better for me, mind you as you know it is us that are having to deal with the w/d sxs.

 

Am I right in thinking that you are on other meds I apologise if I am wrong, because I have often wondered if they can affect one with regards to w/d sxs, what you said with daily cuts that the cut maybe to much has been told to me by others and I am still looking at ways now that I have had this bout of feeling rough in adjusting my cuts.

 

I am going to have to look  at what PAWS means because it took me a while to figure out what some of the abbreviations meant there maybe a section here on the forum that does state what they mean.

 

DD

 

Exactly the same for me Vribble, I was feeling highly sensitised to even the smallest of cut and felt like my brain and body never got a break to 'readjust' from the decrease in dose.  With the cut and hold, I know I get a punch on days 3-4, then again at 10, but with the MT I just felt sick on the stomach all the time, at first I thought it was the mix (I used full fat milk), but then realised I was training my body and brain into hypersensitivity.  Now I can cut between 0.75mgs - 1mg and not hurt too badly, but on MT was struggling with a 0.050 drop daily.

 

Guess it's like everyone says, it's very individual.  I plan on doing a cut and hold all the way down, so when I get to 0.50mgs, I will jump as I will be very accustomed to that drop rate.

 

Staffy

 

 

Staffy,

 

I felt the same thing with an increasing sensitivity to the tiniest dose.  Usually micro'ers also dose multiple times per day even with long-acting benzos.  I discovered that each dosing was just another shock to my system.  When I could I decreased the frequency to twice, then once per day.  This worked with librium in my case.

 

So, at least for me, the taper went smoother when I decreased the frequency as well as using cut&hold.  I can't say I suffered through any of my tapers.  My wd sxs were mild.  I'd feel a bit of a bump on day 3-4, then again on 7-8, then something clicked, and I'd cruise for a few days.

 

At the very worst I was edgy, wired, fogged up, and mixing metaphors, but not suffering after each cut.  I don't include depression as part of my sxs since I rode in with depression.  I came to the dance with a boatload of symptoms.

 

I always looked forward to the welcome click, the sound of the body making the adjustment, and the smooth sailing at the end of each cut period.  It was like not tapering at all.  My body looked forward to making a cut in dose 2-3 times per month, knowing I wouldn't be messing with my brain chemistry every day, several times per day.  My body cried out in thanks, not in wd sxs.

 

My cut&hold schedule was a little slower than Ashton and I tapered to an off-the-charts lower dose.  I guess I just did a modified Ashton.  I'm about to jump from what I hope is my last taper.  0.5mgs librium and getting close.

 

:)Ibble

 

 

 

 

Hi vribble

 

You don't me but Staffy does I am just having somewhat a heated debate with hubby about which way is better the daily taper or cut and hold, he feels that the daily cut is better as by reducing  a small amount each day is less of an impact to ones system than doing the same amount in one go. I can see both sides as whichever way one goes there will no doubt be w/d sxs involved.

 

Is it a case of we have to find the best way for us, I personally have not had w/d sxs has bad as some have and think myself lucky in that way, you mention depression and this is where to me it causes confusion I was originally treated for depression because I was suffering from insomnia, insomnia can cause depression so I don't know where I stand on that score.

 

DD

 

Hi vribble

 

You don't me but Staffy does I am just having somewhat a heated debate with hubby about which way is better the daily taper or cut and hold, he feels that the daily cut is better as by reducing  a small amount each day is less of an impact to ones system than doing the same amount in one go. I can see both sides as whichever way one goes there will no doubt be w/d sxs involved.

 

Is it a case of we have to find the best way for us, I personally have not had w/d sxs has bad as some have and think myself lucky in that way, you mention depression and this is where to me it causes confusion I was originally treated for depression because I was suffering from insomnia, insomnia can cause depression so I don't know where I stand on that score.

 

DD

 

DD,

 

I don't think either way is wrong.  Every individual has to find what works for them.  The goal is the same for all of us: tapering without wd sxs and discontinuing benzo use.  (I've had some trouble with the latter part)

 

I, too, have depression to begin with.  I have a lot of sxs that I had before benzo use and will have after benzo use - that have nothing to do with benzos.  Sometimes it's hard to separate out the preexisting conditions from wd sxs.

 

I think there's a wide spectrum of good taper methods from daily cuts to every 2-3 week cut&holds.  Whatever results in the least amount of withdrawal symptoms is best.

 

:)Ibble

Thanks Vribble

 

So true there is a different method of tapering for all of us, which ever works the best as I have mentioned before I did not do cut and hold for long so it was difficult to decide which method was best for me.

 

Thank you.

 

DD

I was just rereading this thread and saw how Cut & Hold is compared to "jagged steps" and a "jump" as opposed to one long smooth slide when one uses daily cuts.  I'm not sure I ever encountered anything all that jagged.

 

With daily cuts I never felt like I regained my footing, I was being swept away and bashed against the rocks every day.  For me it was the slide without end.  When I took it in steps with cut & hold, I had minimal wd sxs and it didn't even feel like tapering during the last part of any cut period.  In other words, after each step I got to rest a spell.  My brain thanked me.

 

Slides and steps both work. 

Different strokes for different folks. There are lots of methods and technique variations in this benzo withdrawing business.

The important thing is to keep going south by whatever method and rate you fancy that produces an acceptable level of symptoms. Nobody really knows the "best" way to do this. It may be that different methods work best for different people.

Yes, I agree Bart. Everyone's chemical make-up is different, so that's probably why some people do better with different methods. There is no right or wrong with tapering. As long as what you are doing is reducing your dose and you aren't getting severe s/x.

 

Also, just a comment about the "microtapering" issue. Are we getting a bit hung up on semantics? I don't think I usually refer to it as a "microtaper" (not sure). I think I usually say daily taper, or something like that, but is it really that important? I think most people who use the MT terminology usually mean a daily cut of some sort, whether that is a tablet cut or a liquid cut.

Yes, I agree Bart. Everyone's chemical make-up is different, so that's probably why some people do better with different methods. There is no right or wrong with tapering. As long as what you are doing is reducing your dose and you aren't getting severe s/x.

 

Also, just a comment about the "microtapering" issue. Are we getting a bit hung up on semantics? I don't think I usually refer to it as a "microtaper" (not sure). I think I usually say daily taper, or something like that, but is it really that important? I think most people who use the MT terminology usually mean a daily cut of some sort, whether that is a tablet cut or a liquid cut.

 

The problem is more than semantics. Jana Hill uses this term to describe her specific taper method..which I understand is not titration or at least our version of titration. So, it seems there are some members who are actually using Jana's true microtapering method and others who have adopted the name to mean titration. It's hard to determine who is using Jana's method and who is titrating. This will, and has, lead to confusion for members....and I might add, team members.

As I understand it, titration simply means making a liquid solution or suspension with your benzo pills. I'm not exactly sure how Jana does it, but most people here seem to use the term "micro-taper" to mean daily small cuts. This can be done by dry cutting and weighing using a fine scale or by making or buying a liquid version of your benzo and measuring out small amounts with a syringe. You can either pull and suck down your dose or pull and throw away an increasingly larger amount and then drinking down the remainder. I started out following the Ashton manual which I sped up as I was a short term user. I switched to daily small cuts when I got below 2mg. I'm going to call it the accelerated Ashton cut and hold, titration, MT method (patent pending). Seriously, benzo tapering really needs to be individualized which Heather Ashton always recommended.