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Birds Valium cross-over chronicles


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Birds Valium cross over chronicles: 

 

My journey.  How a senior with high blood pressure crossed over to Valium successfully.

 

 

November 13-20th - On .4mg Ativan and 1mg Valium getting ready for crossover by adding

small dose of Valium for a week in advance (BP 120/80 - Taking 3 mg PD Inderal

(Propranolol) @ 3X per day, one 10MG pill every 8 hours))

 

November 22st / started crossover -  On .35mg Ativan and 1.25mg Valium (BP 145/85)

 

November 23rd -  1.75mg Ativan and 2.5mg Valium (Trouble starting, mild vertigo W/D.  Heart rate up to 160/102 Knocked BP down with increase to 4mg PD Inderal, relief from W/D in 45 minutes)

 

November 24th -  .15mg Ativan and 3mg Valium (BP 145/85 - Still 4mg PD Inderal)

 

November 25th -  Quit Ativan 4mg Valium 4x (BP 145/85 - Still 4mg PD Inderal) No problems, hey this is easy.

 

November 26th -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 170/108 -  BIG trouble, in full w/d, feels like the old cold turkey!!! I hate this feeling.  Bad Vertigo and tinnitus.  Take 10 mg Inderal fast! Need to keep CNS from over stimulation, up dose W/ .1mg Ativan.  2 hours later. MUCH better, relief!! BP down to 135/83.  10 hours later BP up to 166/102 and W/D starting up again.  Up dose to .05mg Ativan and 10mg Inderal.  One hour later, relief. Total Inderal now to 6mg per day and Ativan .15mg and 4mg Valium (feeling guilty for up dosing but it worked) (Important note: Blood Pressure goes up about one hour before w/d sets in and tinnitus is a warning signal that vertigo is not far behind so use Increased BP increases as an advanced warning indicator for future w/d)

 

November 27th -  More of the same, worried now, keep going or turn back? I keep going.

 

November 28th -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 118/82 - Still 6mg PD Inderal)  Good nights sleep but right side of brain felt like a clamp was on it, tight feeling, weird. Can also feel heart beat in right side of brain and I do not like it. Tinnitus still fading, I am so happy today about that!  10:43AM, vertigo, tinnitus, w/d coming back.  Quick, up dose with .1mg Ativan.  1 hour later, it worked, holding good with no w/d.  6 hours later more w/d, up dose with 1mg Valium. One hour later Valium has NO EFFECT!! Next step-up dose with .1 mg Ativan.  45 minutes later w/d gone, feeling very good!  Inderal at 6mg per day and Ativan .2mg and 5mg Valium (Feeling guilty for up dosing and using Ativan as a bridge for crossover but it worked so this is a victory for me since I'm still crossing over OK)

 

November 29th -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 117/73 - Still 6mg PD Inderal)  Good nights sleep, morning OK but have benzo flu feeling.  Tinnitus still way down - 2:00PM, vertigo, tinnitus, w/d coming back.  Quick, need to up dose with .1mg Ativan.  About 1 hour later holding good with no w/d.  Inderal at 6mg per day and Ativan .1mg and 4mg Valium.

 

November 30th -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 109/68 - Heart rate slowing much so drop back to 5mg PD Inderal)  Good nights sleep, morning OK with a little vertigo but manageable.  Tinnitus still down.  4:00PM, vertigo, tinnitus, w/d coming back.  Quick up dose with .05mg Ativan.  Worked 85 minutes later, too long, holding good with no w/d so I'm happy now I did not take more Ativan.  Inderal at 5mg per day and Ativan .05mg and 4mg Valium.

 

December 1st -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 118/70 - Heart running still slowing drop back to 4mg PD Inderal)  VERY Good nights sleep, 8 hours, morning good too.  Tinnitus still down.  4:00PM, vertigo, tinnitus, w/d coming back.  Quick, up dose with .05mg Ativan.  Up dose working, holding good with no w/d.  Inderal at 4mg per day and Ativan .05mg and 4mg Valium.

 

December 2nd -  4mg Valium 4x (BP 111/72 - Heart running to slow drop back to 3mg PD Inderal)  VERY Good nights sleep, 10 hours, morning very good too.  Tinnitus still down.  All is good, Great day.  Inderal at 3mg per day and 4mg Valium.

 

 

 

What I learned:

Not to be afraid of up dosing in small amounts during a cross over. (or when ever you are in W/D from tapering too fast) That it takes Valium about 7 days to build up to full strength in my body. That I like Valium over Ativan, Should have done this way sooner, I feel more grounded and stable in general now. Right now I am feeling a LONG beautiful window, I know it will not last for long but it gives me inspiration. If  I can land feeling like this I am going to be a very happy Girl!  My mind is so clear, I can think straight right now and I just know I am going to be OK in the end, no permanent damage done,  my brain is just fine (my deepest fears put at ease now). I am going to taper much slower from now on and the Valium with its long half-life is going to work very good at smoothing out all the dosing bumps I felt on Ativan. Also I am so glad I learned how to make milk and water solutions, this may have save my cross over.  When the w/d comes I did not have the mental calmness to do dosing math or the time to mess with it.  I needed FAST doses to be ready to go before my CNS went haywire and out of control, the small up doses needed to be available and ready to take very quickly.

 

This Valium cross over has been WELL WORTH the trouble while it was very nerve racking at times. I will not be afraid of making adjustments including small up dosing with my original benzo as needed to knock down any W/D. Note: Adding additional Valium does not work, only the original benzo works to knock down the w/d. It is as if they are binding to a very different group of GABA receptors, like the Valium is spreading out more evenly in my brain and the Ativan was aggressively binding into a specific group of receptors but I am not sure, its just a feeling, a very strong feeling!  Final note to myself, crossing over is made much easier if you feel your way through it and do not stick to a tight schedule (within 20% boundaries of coarse) during a crossover small amounts of extra benzo's may be needed in moderation and the greatest enemy is fear so fear not, everything will work out fine, it just takes a lot of time and patience. Lots and lots of patience!

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Great to hear Birdman. I suppose I'm "lucky" that I was always on valium, so I never had to contemplate a cross over. I really feel for anyone who has had to do that, because tapering can be hard enough without having to add a change of meds into the equation.

 

Well done. I'm sure you're going to do very well.

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What great news! Birdman you are on your way off! I'm so happy for you and I hope everything continues smoothly. Maybe I should take a look at it but I have been somewhat stable for a few days. After my last cut actually. I don't know how long that will continue though. I'm going to make another small cut tonight. So proud of you!

 

Hugs

P2

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Hi P2,

Thanks :)  I really like the Valium as it just has a different feel to it.  It's a lot nicer that the Ativan at least that's my perception for now, well we will see how I feel after my first Valium cut, that should be an interesting experience :-\.

I think I am going to slow my taper for the holidays as I can't afford to be laid up with the kids in town visiting. 

Your doing good too I see. How are you feeling? I hope your not going to fast and if so it is not a big deal to make a micro adjustment upwards either. I always kicked myself for up-cutting but since the cross over I'm not going to sweat it any more. It is what it is and mistakes and corrections will be made.  As long as my general direction is downward it will all workout in the end.

 

Hugs

 

BM

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Birdman, great job on your crossover!  Hope the rest of your taper goes well. I did little updoses here and there with Ativan also when I crossed to Valium and thought it made things a lot easier. They must bind to slightly different sites as we seem to have withdrawal from one benzo while the other one is building to equivalent levels. I've continued the small updoses and holds as needed during my Valium taper without apparent problems so far. With a continually slowing taper depending on my symptoms I've been able to continue working and leading a fairly normal life. My major problem is boredom with the taper and resisting the urge to hurry and get it over with. I think that pushing a taper and "shocking" the CNS leads to a lot of the problems encountered along the way and in the post-taper period. There is some risk of getting paradoxical, developing significant tolerance withdrawal or some sort of reaction to Valium during these long tapers, but I'm willing to take the risks in exchange for an easier time of it.
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Birdman, I actually feel better after the last cut. Instead of cutting every two weeks, I am going to try .0625 each week. If it doesn't work I can always adjust. When I get to .5 I probably will go back to water titration but who knows? My taper had stalled due to moving too fast back in the summer and now I hope to keep moving forward. The last thing I want is to get into the dire situation I got into then.

 

Birdman, my taper, like so many others, has been hell and I am hoping the last part of it might be easier. I've read that for some it's harder but some do say easier. It would be nice to catch that break but ultimately it's going to be what it's going to be. Others have suffered more than me and I know it. It's been a hard, hard 10 going in 11 months!

 

You are going to finish up and smoke me at the finish line. Yes, it's not a race but I will be there in spirit cheering you on!

 

Hugs

P2

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I agree the valium has made me way more level than ativan ever did. No more interdose withdrawals, and I find sometimes I even forget to take a dose at my usual time due to still feeling ok.

 

I definitely find the valium much more of a help overall.

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Hi crixley,

That is reassuring to hear.  I am still taking some micro doses of Ativan to keep the w/d in check but it is getting better everyday.  I have my worst times in the mornings about an hour after getting up (vertigo) but it is getting shorter every morning. Also sleep is no longer a problem but staying awake in the evenings is getting harder. I keep falling to sleep in front of the TV at about 10:00

 

Hi P2,

That is great news.  I am so happy you can make these cuts and stick with it. I really believe there are special times during the year where we can cut faster (holes) and times when we can't (walls) for what ever complex biological reasons are coming into play. Maybe it has to do with time of year, hormones, accelerated healing rate of GABA or changes in diet, who knows, this is a non-linear process as I have found.  It is important to take advantage of those times (holes). Maybe your other meds are opening holes for you to take advantage of, just a guess.  This tapering thing we are involved in is very complex and we just have to feel our way through it and take advantage of HOLES and hold at WALLS.

 

Hugs

BM

 

Hi BART,

What do you mean by "risk of getting paradoxical"?

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Oddly, I don't forget doses but I was 3 hours late with the morning dose! Unheard of, as I'm always within 15 minutes. I did take it and moved my Lunch dose an hour later. I didn't even have a twinge or anything! Birdman, your theory may be right on target. Maybe there are times we can cut without any problems and other times of the year we suffer more. I know the low dose zoloft has helped with the depression although its taken 6 weeks. I might get more relief with a larger dose but I'm going to stay low I believe, unless something changes drastically.

 

I've gained 7 lbs on the remeron and I'm not happy about it. I am seeing the doctor today. I had reduced the dosage on it already. I'm going to re evaluate everything when I get to .50 to see what my next move should be. It may be Valium.

 

You did a great job of crossing over. I don't want to cut too fast either during the holidays. We will be traveling and I need to have some energy and not bad symptoms.

 

Hugs

P2

 

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Paradoxical refers to an unusual side effect where you have the opposite effect of the drug. In the case of benzos taking your dose actually brings on withdrawal symptoms rather than relieves them. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often.
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Good Luck Bird.

I too loved the cross over to valium ---until it sunk into my system and then I became so depressed I couldnt function -I sooo want to try to croos to V agian but I very nealry killed myself and my liver isnt quite up to it.

I am sur eyou will do fine tho.

I am thinking of using the dreaded clonazepam as its metabolites are not nealry so dirty-having interdose wd from ativan

so gotta go somewhere.

I to am older and ativan drives me mad ,I actually add in 10 mgs to my schedule just to avoid the iwd from ativan,,,doesnt work very well but if i go cmpleltey V I know i will be in depressionland.

I am sure u will do fine ...and succeed,so many do --and the croos over is very pleasnt.Good luck!

Katy

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Hi katy,

 

Luckily I am a very happy person by nature.  My biggest symptoms still are lack of balance, tilting room feelings and just plain feeling like I took a bullet to my equilibrium center and I have read on other blogs that Valium really helped those symptoms specifically. I also have the basic stuffy head benzo flu feeling and the tinnitus still comes and goes and it can drive me crazy too. 

I am still not out of the woods yet as I am still taking micro doses of Ativan to keep the w/d away and for me w/d means vertigo specifically. I hope I get stabilized soon as I want to say good bye to the Ativan for good. The molecular structure of the two drugs is very different and I can feel that in my head too. I do feel better, so far.

<a href="http://s1296.beta.photobucket.com/user/birdman22222/media/ativan_valium.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag4/birdman22222/ativan_valium.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/></a>

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This is so weird.  I am still having to take Ativan in very tiny doses to keep the w/d away. What is really bizarre is how little I have to take.  I put 10 drops of Ativan water under my tongue in the evening when w/d comes on and after about 45 minutes it fades away.  The dose is so tiny it should have no effect,  down to .025mg. is all it takes at this point, what is up with that?  Just for an experiment I let the w/d run for a few hours and it just got worse. The small trace of Ativan water under the tongue nails it every time.  This info needs to be shared so I am writing about it. While it is interesting I hope this Ativan micro dosing cycle ends soon as I am getting so tied of feeling w/d  - A cross over is harder then I thought and it takes lots of extra work.  I can't see any Doctor or hospital pulling something this delicate off, this falls under the self-help category for sure as does tapering.
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