Kindling effect?

A quick question. I've seen posts where BB have asked if just a Benzo now and again after taper is okay, some of the replies  have mentioned the kindling effect. I would like to know if kindling has been proven, can anyone point to some information on this? Tks Dd.

As far as I know, the kindling effect references cite anecdotal evidence.  I'm not aware of any definitive studies.

I've never heard of any definitve studies on kindling just people stating personal experiences.  I myself have not experienced it when taking it after a period of time but, lots of people have.  Ill bump up your post so maybe you will get some new responses

Wikipedia talks about kindling originating with seizure disorders. It's very interesting.

My understanding of kindling has more to do with reinstatement and subsequent attempts to quit. Like the yo yo effect in dieting. I have been off now 14 months, and things are much better, but it took me three jumps. And my interpretation of kindling was my experience with increased w/d issues with each attempt at being off. But, as Ashton says- it does not mean you cannot succeed. I am here to testify to that, but also to caution anyone who is considering the yo yo thing. Not a good idea. It did not help me, and made things way harder and much longer in the end. but bottom line: I am off and success story's been posted.

north

Kindling is defined as a medical term as "the electrophysiological changes that occur in the brain as a result of repeated intermittent exposure to a subthreshold electrical or chemical stimulus (as one causing seizures) so that there develops a usually permanent decrease in the threshold of excitability." & is used in this way in medical literature.

 

There is a body of studies being done on 'amygdala kindled' rats to ascertain the effect of various substances in preventing or reversing kindling but haven't found anything directly on point.  As for benzo related kindling, no surprises, I can't find any published scientific studies, which leaves us with the anecdotal data collected by Dr Ashton.

 

As for personal experience, a course of Cipro triggered insomnia for me almost overnight, after being healed for about a year from a benzo cold turkey but I can't know that I would not have the same reaction to the Cipro, without prior benzo exposure.  Whether it was the Cipro or a kindling of the original benzo withdrawal, I do think I had a more complicated recovery from a relatively short course of valium than I had expected.

 

On the other hand, it's clear that benzos & I are not good together & I am now close to fully healed after 3 months off, so just don't know whether kindling was real for me or not & don't plan to conduct any more personal experiments.

 

oh my God! i can't definitely vouch that this kindling affect that i've been going through since i c/t'd in the detox last April is very real.

most of my symptoms are all brain symptoms. my brain vibrates, pounds, swims, cooks, sizzles, hisses so loudly.

here is a good definition of kindling.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_%28sedative-hypnotic_withdrawal%29

 

Kindling is the phenomenon which occurs as a result of repeated withdrawal from benzodiazepines or alcohol that leads to increasingly severe withdrawal symptoms, including an increased risk of seizures. Ethanol (alcohol), has a very similar mechanism of tolerance and withdrawal to benzodiazepines, involving the GABAA receptors, NMDA receptors and AMPA receptors; these receptors are involved in kindling. The research into kindling, a phenomenon which results in increased sensitivity of the nervous system due to multiple acute withdrawals with for example increased seizures, has primarily focused on alcohol.[1] An intensification of anxiety and other psychological symptoms of alcohol withdrawal also occurs.[2]

 

i've done many c't withdraw from benzo's in my life and i've never ever experienced all this brain stuff where it actually feels as though my brain is cooking.

i don't know if it will ever stop? and tonight i became so upset and agitated and i can't even think of the word. i don't feel like my brain will ever stop all that it is doing. despondent, that's the word.

 

and when it gets really active like this i go into severe dp/dr and that the doctor must of put a foreign device into my brain and that he is controlling it from where he is.

i can feel my brain move and vibrate.

i've done so many withdrawal attempts. my blog is kinda long but i go through it in detail of just how many attempts.

 

and this is after being clean and sober once before from being on a ton of benzo's and opiates and having had one seizure back in 1994.

 

so i had a 7 year respite of being benzo and opiate free and i believe i had some terrible protracted withdrawals that felt like an MS kind of thing. so i went in for an MRI in 2002. and i couldn't do the MRI because of feeling claustrophobic so i took 2 2mg. ativan and then i got back on the klonopin. been trying to taper since 2004.

 

kindling is all too real and i just wish it would end already. been kindling for 7 months now. with 3 rescue doses.

Cedertree told me i was kindling. and she told me that i'd better stop those rescue doses because that was like pouring kerosene on fire. and it is. so it's been 91 days since my last rescue dose.

i really hope that my brain heals from this. it's so painful and uncomfortable.

pretty

From my understanding, kindling occurs even during interdose withdrawl. I actually read somewhere that binge drinking is more likely to cause kindling than daily alcohol intake.  From what I've read, In my opinion, a benzo with a longer half life would subject a person to less kindling. Kindling happens pretty much every time we start to withdrawl from a dose. Just a thought.

 

snoball

and you will know if you are kindling. you will feel your brain hiss all the time, and it cooks and sizzles. it kindles just like a kindling fire that takes so long to go out. mine has been 8 months all day long--everyday and even when i'm sleeping. when i dream, everything is always moving, like in an undulation. and i'm always trying to get it to stop and settle down. it's bizarre!

and you will know if you are kindling. you will feel your brain hiss all the time, and it cooks and sizzles. it kindles just like a kindling fire that takes so long to go out.

 

Pretty, can you please point me to any references that discuss people actually being able to "feel" the kindling? My understanding was that kindling just occurs. In other words, you wouldn't know it until you experienced subsequent withdrawals and your sx were worse than before. I've never heard of kindling being described as a sx that is like firewood kindling burning (e.g., cracking and popping). Will you please provide a reference for this?  Thank you much.

Kindling is not a specific symptom.  What pretty is probably describing is one of her symptoms that she is experiencing or has experienced.  Kindling is basically being supersensitized from a previous expereince with different substances , in this case benzo's.  Means that each time a person tries to get off of benzo's or other substances that their experience or symptoms may be worse.  Not always the case though.  In my case kindling was very real.

no, i'm not describing my symptoms at all. i am definitely kindling. with a whole range of neurological symptoms too.

i also have another member on here Cedartree who is 2 years benzo free who says that i am definitely kindling.

i just named some of what is happening with my brain,  but i guess what i was trying to say is that one will definitely know if they are kindling. and also especially with what that Wikipedia says that i put the link on here.

 

well, maybe that is not the case, but one would suspect-- that this kind of withdrawal that i am going through now, i never went through-- over 10 times that i've done a cold turkey withdrawal from benzo's in my life. never had this experience.

 

Ginia, how was your kindling experience? and what were all your symptoms of your kindling?

pretty

Hi,

 

As has already been stated, the evidence for 'kindling' with repeated withdrawal cycles of benzodiazepines is weak - anecdotal in nature. It requires research. There is good evidence for the effect occurring with the abuse of alcohol, and alcohol also acts upon the GABA system. However, I'd be leery of making any direct comparisons between alcohol and benzodiazepines in this regard. There is little to no solid research into possible kindling effects occurring from the use (and repeated withdrawal) of benzodiazepines.

 

However, it seems to me it would be sensible = given that there is some evidence for the effect - that repeated withdrawal and reinstatement of benzodiazepines would be best avoided.

 

I made several accelerated withdrawal and reinstatements (as advised by my neurologist) - I cannot say what kindling effects (if any) this had upon me. What I can say, even though I suffered terrible (protracted) withdrawal effects, except for some lingering (fairly minor) sleep issues, I did eventually recover. Oh, I and must avoid alcohol.  A single drink once in a blue moon (months apart) is fine, but anything more than this risks making me feel unwell for a very protracted period. My guess is that things have not totally returned to normal for me, but my brain has achieved homeostasis, but is easily disturbed from this balanced state by alcohol. As I said, just a guess.

 

Wikipedia: Kindling (sedative-hypnotic withdrawal)

 

Wikipedia: homeostasis

Pretty,

My experience with kindling was that my experience with a CT years ago was greatly different than my second experience getting off of klonopin.  It was much more difficult the second time even though I did a long 14 month taper and then I ended up protracted.  My doctor who used to work in a detox/addiction center told me that I was kindled.  This made sense to me because it was so so much more difficult.  The symptoms were classic benzo withdrawl symptoms.  I used to believe I was doomed because of the kindling but , that is also not the case.  You will still recover.  As for research and data in regards to kindling I have read enough to be satisfied for myself.  Some would like to disqualify the experience much like many disqualify the experience of benzo withdrawl.  However, as most of us know now these experiences do exist.  Try not to worry about it though.  I know lots of kindled people and they are doing fine.   

Hi David

There is some anecdotal evidence of occasional one time doses of benzos given pre-operatively without adverse effects. The "kindling" effect seems to be used more in conjunction with going back on benzos for some period of time and then trying to get off.

The problem with the occasional one time dose is that it can get more and more often. Sort of like alcohol; small amounts may have some health benefits, but not everybody can keep the amount small.

yes to what Bart wrote but i won't be able to ever take even just one benzo again, at least that's the way i feel right now.

this last cold turkey that i did in the detox last April, something definitely went wrong. i really feel like i blew out a protion of my brain. and i took 3 rescue doses in the last 8 months and all those little doses made me hallucinate even more and made me wrose,

that's when i knew i cannot ever take another rescue dose.

i also took about 3 Norco opiates over a month ago for bad period cramps and that made my brain worse.

 

i have all brain issues and neurological issues where any Neurologist will just diagnose me with MS the way i describe all my neurological symptoms.

i won't know if i have MS until i am totally healed from this benzo withdrawal.

 

i understand now that a few people were not understanding when i wrote that the brain actually kindles and one will feel that.

i am sorry for that or whatever i wrote to confuse.

 

my brain feels like that all the time. it actually feels and sounds like a loud kindling fire. that is very scary to me. it hasn't stopped in a 8 months is even more scary.

 

i've done so many cold turkey's in my life from benzo's. i did have 7 years benzo free at one point. but basically most of my life has been on and off, tapering and cold turkey-ing  and then going back up, so my brain is pretty upset.

 

but Ginia, thank you for letting me know that i'm not doomed here and you know lots of people who are doing fine.

 

RainyNight, sorry about any confusion, it's my brain that should be documented and really feels like it is kindling.

i sure hope that it stops one day.

does anyone think that it will stop all the pounding, kindling, swimming, flying back and forth, decsending, vertigo???i sure hope so. today it felt like there was a hockey puck floating from one side to the other causing me to descend as if i was sky diving, or on a rocking boat.

 

i still sometimes think that 'they' at the detox put something inside my brain and that they are controlling it from where they are.

bad stuff this drug if that's not true. tonight i told my mother that if my brain keeps doing what it's doing in 17 months, i will have to go somewhere to find someone like hit man to eliminate my brain. but i don't think that will happen so i hope that my brain heals. Ginia, do you think my brain will heal up and actually stop all that it's doing? i ask Cedartree over and over. i need constant reassurance, sorry.

pretty

 

As has already been stated, the evidence for 'kindling' with repeated withdrawal cycles of benzodiazepines is weak - anecdotal in nature .... There is little to no solid research into possible kindling effects occurring from the use (and repeated withdrawal) of benzodiazepines.

 

 

Hi Colin,

 

Thank you so much for your input on this topic. Very helpful. I appreciate the insight on alcohol as well. It's always wonderful to hear from those who have recovered so significantly.

 

There is some anecdotal evidence of occasional one time doses of benzos given pre-operatively without adverse effects. The "kindling" effect seems to be used more in conjunction with going back on benzos for some period of time and then trying to get off.

 

Bart, that is good information as well. I've been considering getting an ID bracelet that says I'm allergic to benzos. I'm just so scared of getting into an accident or being incapacitated and having a doctor give me benzos, and having that re-start my whole withdrawal experience all over again.

i understand now that a few people were not understanding when i wrote that the brain actually kindles and one will feel that. i am sorry for that or whatever i wrote to confuse

 

Pretty, Yes, I was confused.    Thank you for the explanation.  I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time right now. Just keep reading the success stories and look up the progress logs of those who have recovered to see how bad off they were and how far they've come. I think that is the only thing that helps some days.

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Bart, that is good information as well. I've been considering getting an ID bracelet that says I'm allergic to benzos. I'm just so scared of getting into an accident or being incapacitated and having a doctor give me benzos, and having that re-start my whole withdrawal experience all over again.

 

  When asked what i wanted for Christmas, this is the only gift i could think of  ( well besides being healthy again ).. ID saying allergic to benzos

rainynight--kindling is something to definitely know about and be wary of. i never expected this type of brain injury to happen to me. i was not like this the day before the detox and so now i can't help thinking "they" put something inside my brain.

if i make it through this i really want to wrote a book and entitle it 'The Kindled One"... thinking of a bunch of titles but i like that one. it's patented though. i just patented it! and i keep on keep on keeping on i keep on keeping on i keep, i keephttp://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/dance.gif

and Id bracelet saying i'm allergic to benzo's is a smart idea. although everytime i decided on taking a benzo, it was always entirely up to me. now that's sad. accidental addict or curiousity made me the kindled one.

Bart, that is good information as well. I've been considering getting an ID bracelet that says I'm allergic to benzos. I'm just so scared of getting into an accident or being incapacitated and having a doctor give me benzos, and having that re-start my whole withdrawal experience all over again.

 

I'm not convinced this is a good idea. Benzodiazepines have some very useful properties, especially as emergency anticonvulsants. If you suffered a status epilepticus seizure, a benzodiazepine is usually the first line treatment, and usually very effective too. Rather than falsely state that you are allergic, it might be better (and safer) to state that benzodiazepines should be administered only in emergency situations.

A quick question. I've seen posts where BB have asked if just a Benzo now and again after taper is okay, some of the replies  have mentioned the kindling effect. I would like to know if kindling has been proven, can anyone point to some information on this? Tks Dd.

 

VERY little info exist about this...iam one of those who are convinced that i got kindling...the seizures got worse and worse each time i took benzoz...in the start it lasted just for one day...small sympthoms...i didnt understand i before it got REALLY Bad...now i has last 17 mounths....im scared..

 

my biggest question are...iam allergic for LIFE now??when am i safe for gaba seizures again...nobody can ansvear this

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Bart, that is good information as well. I've been considering getting an ID bracelet that says I'm allergic to benzos. I'm just so scared of getting into an accident or being incapacitated and having a doctor give me benzos, and having that re-start my whole withdrawal experience all over again.

 

  When asked what i wanted for Christmas, this is the only gift i could think of  ( well besides being healthy again ).. ID saying allergic to benzos

 

ah me too...im scared to death of having a surgery,car accident or whatever...and its not just benzoz we are allergic to...its also morphine,alcohol and so one..anything with GABA it in effects this sjhit

alanapoli

  Oh you are so right, i had surgery back in 2000 they gave me benzos for less then a week while in the hospital i was so sick they couldnt figure it out, and was given benzos for a short time in 2001 couldnt figure it out finally this time my new dr figured it out and told me not to take them again that it will prob continue to get worse each time i take them. I am an recovering alcoholic and havent drank for over 13 yrs, yes had terrible withdrawal with that too but only lasted a few weeks. I am terrified of ever having another benzo put in me !!!!