Valium- To switch or not to switch?

Valium- To switch or not to switch?

My new cut is .5mg  Ativan and I am holding on for now with really bad waves at the moment but I think I can hold this cut with a little will power. I am sure it will normalize in about a week.  Looking back I never thought I would ever get to this level, frankly I am amazed this is really working. Just months ago I thought I was a lost soul. I really thought I was damaged goods and beyond repair, my brain was such a mess with temporary psychosis.  Not any more, I am so glad those times are behind me now.

Using Ativan at these lower levels feels a bit dicey to me due to the short half life.  Especially after a cut it seems to get a bit tougher at this level.

MY GOALS AND CONCERNS-

1. Hoping switching to Valium will help my intolerable tinnitus (Many reports say this is true)

2. Since I have a limited supply of drugs (no thanks to my GP) can I stretch out my taper on a hybrid mix of 50/50  Valium to Ativan?

3. At the end of my taper I believe being on Valium may really help my insomnia and give me a nice soft landing in general.

FOLLOW MY PROGRESS ON THIS THREAD

Hey Birdman,

I understand the delimma. I see youre dosing 6 times a day. That should help the interdose problem a lot.

It all depends on how bad you feel. If this is something that feel not doable, Valium might even you out a little. Some people find it sedating so you could try switching your nighttime dose to Valium and see how you tolerate it. Is the doc on board with writing the RX?

The downside is that your taper would slow down, since you wouldn't want to cut during the time you cross over. Many people do fine with Ativan. Some dont. It's truly a case of listening to how you feel.

There are some substitution schedules floating around somewhere. I could probably run one down for you if you decide to do a full cross over.

Good luck!

Flip

Hi Flip,

Thanks for answering. Not only do have I approval but I have about 180 x 2 mg tabs and 200mg of solution in a bottle ready to go.  I have been preparing for this (cold turkey will make you do this type of thing).

The thing that really bugs me is that during a cross over you have to double up on both drugs and that seems like a time waster and counter productive like you said.  Can people slowly switch into Valium by slowly replacing a little Ativan, little by little over say 45 days? Is that doable?  I am doing milk now so it would not be that hard to start by putting say 1/2 mgV into the solution and cutting out .05 Ativan and then continue converting more slowly week after week?  I know the ratio from Ativan to Valium is 1 to 10. That being known, what do you think?

Hugs

BM

I think your plan sounds like it's worth trying. I would in your place. I'd start with the nighttime dose. Then, once that one was all Valium, I'd go to a midday dose - the one where you normally feel the best. By then, you should have a handle on how it affects you

It sounds to me like you have this cutting thing down and that's great. I played around a lot with different methods. We are truly in charge of ourselves in the tapering process and I think there are as many methods as there are people, almost. Pay really close attention to symptoms, especially about the 3rd and 4th day.

I'd be interested in following your progress.I'll keep my eyes open.

Flip

Hi Flip,

I am going to give it the old college try. I have been thinking about it for a while now. I am going to wait until I level out on my current cut and then make the next cut a 10% cut into Valium. Night time experimentation freaks me out a little since I lose my composure when I wake up startled so I am going to cross over with a blend. Ashton does it right?  I will document it here on this page (If I do not chicken out)  If I suddenly stop writing do not try this

Thanks

BM

OK! 

I am very interested to see how this goes if you do it. When I was losing so much sleep I thought about taking a Valium at night but the only time I slept on Valium I had a bad dream. In all fairness I didn't take it after that happened.

I have a bottle of Valium and I think it has a refill but my doctor would probably be open to a switchover. I have to get leveled out somehow.

Hugs

P2

I started my slow switch to Valium today. I replaced my noon dose of my Ativan with the equivalent in Valium at the 10 to 1 ratio of Valium equivalency.  If it works out I will switch this to a midnight dose.

Hopefully I will not totally wigg-out.  I will keep you posted here so any fellow bloggers can see how I am doing on this HYBRID taper.

My idea is to take any cuts and move them into Valium so I can continue tapering without interruption. Obviously this would be impossible with dry cutting so I have devised an MS Excel spread sheet to track this move with the titration method.  Wish me luck.

The best of luck to you Birdman.

Hugs and good thoughts,

P2

Hey Birdman!  You've taken the plunge! I hope it's going okay ........ Looking forward to your "reports"

All the best and then some

Live

Well it has been 36 hours on the blend and its very boring. No "BIG BANG" and no fireworks,,, hummmm?  I do not know what I was expecting, maybe to be thrown headfirst into W/D at the worst but it's really no big deal at all.  I guess Valium is just another benzo if you dose it at the correct equivalency ratio at 10 to 1 for my taper drug of choice which is Ativan. 

My tinnitus seems to be better but that could be psychological or I could just be healing.  In any case it is going great, no biggy.  Switching is not so bad after all.  If this keeps going well I will just start a thread over in progress logs so I do not clog up this topic area with something that is a total non-event like a simple low level crossover.

I am pleased however that it worked without doubling up on both drugs, time will tell.

Great news Birdman! I wish my doctor had not tried to do a total switch to Valium several months ago. It wasn't what I needed at the time and I didn't have a good experience. I now know it has to be a gradual changeover. If I can get or when I get lower on Ativan I might give it a shot again.

I'm glad you are kicking A to the curb!

Hugs

P2

Birdman, how is your taper going? I'm in a wave right now. Not sure what kicked it off. Could be a variety of things. Rough day but it can always be worse. My concentration is out the window and that's not good with my job. Hope you are feeling good!

Hugs

P2

Hey P2,

Those waves are horrible.  I do not know if I am coming or going today.  The windows and waves are back to back for me right now.  For half the day I feel like I am in withdrawal and the other half I feel like a million bucks.  I have never had waves and windows come and go so fast.  Also I get these strange buzzing headaches now, maybe its the Valium kicking in, very WEIRD but tolerable.  My tinnitus is WAY down in pitch today being on the Valium blend, very tolerable now so I am happy with the results of the blend

Hang in there P2, it does get better as you get lower, trust me on that one

Hugs

BM

P.S. I was going to cut today but hell with it,  I want a nice Thanksgiving so I will cut again on Friday instead.

Birdman:

I crossed from Ativan to Valium  last December and January. I was not keeping records then, but just followed Ashton and moved along at a little faster rate then she says. I basically kept cutting during the cross and when I felt rough went back to a little more Ativan that I was on before. I thought this symptom based do it yourself schedule worked better for me than rigidly following Ashton. It seems like it took around 5-6 weeks and the only big difference I noticed was being a lot more sleepy for about a week or so on the Valium. I think most people will have a little smoother ride down on Valium, but it will not be a picnic. Good luck.

Birdman, I hope it gets better soon. Felt so weird all day. Feels like I have a brick in my forehead. Could be the other meds. Seroquel at 75 mg didn't do squat for me. Don't know if I will continue it. I think not. I also dropped the small dose if Zoloft so it could be that as well. I guess I should have tapered but it was only 12.5 for almost 4 weeks. That was the doctor's rec. I upped to 30mg in remeron but will cut it down tonight to see if that helps.

I'm so excited that you have done so well. That's great Birdman. If I didn't have to deal with this depression the other side effects would be tolerable.

I'm going out of town for Thanksgiving and was hoping I wouldn't feel bad, oh well. Tomorrow is another day in benzo land. Another opportunity to feel good. :-)

Hugs

P2

Struggled with usual side effects when I got below 2mg of Valium

Hi Burt,

Can you tell me about this?  What are the usual side effects at 2MG Valium?

Thanks

BM

Hi P2,

I worry about you taking all that other stuff.  Most of that stuff takes weeks to get into your system anyhow so it is tough to tell if it is working or not until you get up to saturation.

I have felt like I was wearing a tight head band before (squeezing head feeling) but never a brick.

That sounds very annoying

Yes another day in benzo-land (Lord give me strength!)  I can't believe I EAT, SLEEP and S__T in benzo-land for the last 5 months of my life. What a waste of time and resources, AHHHHHHH!  It really pees me off

I hope you get stable at your new dose soon.

Many hugs

BM

Hey Birdman:

I crossed to Valium from Ativan like I said ending up at 5mg and feeling pretty well after a bit. From there I followed Ashton dropping 1mg/week to 3mg. I took 2 weeks getting to 2mg. I then went to 1.5mg over 2 weeks and felt really rough the whole time. My symptoms were anxiety, d/r, diarrhea, cog fog and abdominal pain. From perusing BB these are fairly common side effects. You could see the Ashton manual for a complete list. Not everybody gets them all but everybody gets some. From here I switched to daily micro-tapering, updosed a little and tapered up until I felt better which was around 1.8mg. I then started back down and currently just go at whatever rate leaves me with some symptoms but not enough to significantly interfere with my work or lifestyle. Any side effect can come at any dose and I think result from inadequate GABA receptor activity caused by a combination of not enough GABA receptors to oppose upregulated excitatory pathways and not enough benzos that enhance the function of the existing receptors. I think the trick is to get as stable as you can and then keep your benzo cut rate as close to your healing rate as you can. When cutting they will never be completely balanced but with trial and error you should be able to keep your symptoms down enough to be functional during the taper. Good luck

Hi Bart

I totally agree with your statement about managing your wd symptoms

This is what I am also doing.

I drop by .44 Mg every taper and seem to tolerate it well. Now that is not to say it will sideswipe me at some point since I am only down to 2.16 Mg of Frusuim but

I hope this taper is ok and will keep doing it

So far so good but then I could get side swiped with really bad wd

Hope not

dbeam:

It's good to hear from someone who is doing well. Sounds like you'll be off soon.  I've had to slow down more than I initially expected but the trade off for a more tolerable withdrawal is worth it to me.

Yea but wow

you are at .60 Mg that is really low

Great job doing it and before you know it you will jump and that will be  the end of Benzo the Dragon

Hi bart,

I like your post, it makes sense.

All the way down I have felt like crap. Not as bad as cold turkey by any means but my brain is not right, just not right at all. When I was in cold turkey I felt like I was brain damaged, finished, done.  I even called my attorney and made a will, yes it got that bad during cold turkey! I dropped 25 lbs in 30 days, horrible times.

My main problem is that my equilibrium and basic balance functions seem totally shot to all hell!  I have good and bad days and TODAY is bad so I'm down.

If you can give me any more advice to help my taper that would be nice.

Thanks

BM

Hey Bird:

I would take some time to try and stabilize before cutting. I actually had to titrate up before I felt better. It may be different for different people. I would feel free to try things in this time period. If I couldn't get to a better place in about a month I would just start down anyway very slowly as this could be tolerance withdrawal. I've generally felt a little better as my taper has gone along but I started it feeling pretty good. Good luck.