Author Topic: What is happening in your brain?  (Read 310586 times)

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 12:36:36 am »
This is the best post I've ever read on this forum.
My amygdala would thank you, if it weren't so afraid.
My hippocampus would thank you, if it could remember how.
My prefrontal cortex is planning to thank you, but can't seem to get started.
My temporal lobes can hear the words, Thank you, Thank you, [...]...
but in reality, it's just the whirr of the ceiling fan.
My visual cortex thinks this reply is wayyyyyy long,
so I'll just stop suddenly right h
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 12:41:54 am »
This is the best post I've ever read on this forum.
My amygdala would thank you, if it weren't so afraid.
My hippocampus would thank you, if it could remember how.
My prefrontal cortex is planning to thank you, but can't seem to get started.
My temporal lobes can hear the words, Thank you, Thank you, [...]...
but in reality, it's just the whirr of the ceiling fan.
My visual cortex thinks this reply is wayyyyyy long,
so I'll just stop suddenly right h

 :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:   :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:


[...] :smitten:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 12:51:20 am »
[...],

Yours is a good question. I have NO idea.  I have NO answer for that one.  I can't even figure out why some people can just "ditch" benzos in a week and someone like me is a year out and laying in bed like a moron in a wave. :)
That's just the START of my questions!

I also think that while these are all benzos, they aren't all the same medication. They work a LITTLE differently depending on the benzo - and the half [...] has something to do with it, too, IMO.  Like -if you take a short half [...] drug (like Xanax) once a week it's out of your system in a few hours- you may NOT adapt to it brain-wise.  But if you take a LONGER half-[...] drug (like valium) once a week, it's in your system ALL week and you're getting inhibition all week long - and even that may cause a neuroadaptation over time.  But then there are SO many factors to control for - what drug, how long, half-lives, frequency and amount, genetics, how did you taper, are you blond, brunette, or [...] head? :)  Seriously, even if you COULD control for all the external factors, the internal way each person's body is affected is just too individual. That's why - yeah - you could get this symptom or this one - or all of them, but it's unlikely you'll find anyone with the EXACT same experience.  And that's what we all want - someone who had it JUST as bad and can understand EXACTLY what we are talking about.  But it's not likely. What IS likely is that we all have the same brain parts. And if they ARE affected, the brain parts themselves do the same things in all of us. If my amygdala is hit and yours is hit too, we're gonna be scared of the moon together. :)  And at least in that sense, at least both of our amygdala's work properly!  Um - a little TOO properly thank you. :)
But at least we can look to brain and body structures to explain our symptoms. 
Why some people only have certain symptoms and others are hit with like - everything - is beyond me. I had mostly mental and some physical.  Others are like mostly physical but they aren't feeling like the raving lunatic I was.  Thank God for them. :)

I"ll never truly get it! :D

:)[...]

Firstly excellent post [...].

One of the reasons there is such a variety of symptoms & withdrawal experiences is that there are hundreds of GABA subunits, all of which play a role in the release of GABA & consequently the other neurotransmitters. Each benzo binds to different subunits & has its own unique chemical pathway.

Each of those subunits in turn has its own unique genetic code so the range of variables is huge. The discovery that there are so many subunits is relatively new & researchers have only identified some of the receptors & their ligands, (chemicals that willbind the receptors).

Thankfully, in spite of not really knowing why, we heal anyway.

BTW, the amygdala is very involved in sleep wake cycles so dysregulation probably explains some of the insomnia mayhem.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 12:53:21 am »
great post.

 ;)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 12:57:05 am »
[...],

Yours is a good question. I have NO idea.  I have NO answer for that one.  I can't even figure out why some people can just "ditch" benzos in a week and someone like me is a year out and laying in bed like a moron in a wave. :)
That's just the START of my questions!

I also think that while these are all benzos, they aren't all the same medication. They work a LITTLE differently depending on the benzo - and the half [...] has something to do with it, too, IMO.  Like -if you take a short half [...] drug (like Xanax) once a week it's out of your system in a few hours- you may NOT adapt to it brain-wise.  But if you take a LONGER half-[...] drug (like valium) once a week, it's in your system ALL week and you're getting inhibition all week long - and even that may cause a neuroadaptation over time.  But then there are SO many factors to control for - what drug, how long, half-lives, frequency and amount, genetics, how did you taper, are you blond, brunette, or [...] head? :)  Seriously, even if you COULD control for all the external factors, the internal way each person's body is affected is just too individual. That's why - yeah - you could get this symptom or this one - or all of them, but it's unlikely you'll find anyone with the EXACT same experience.  And that's what we all want - someone who had it JUST as bad and can understand EXACTLY what we are talking about.  But it's not likely. What IS likely is that we all have the same brain parts. And if they ARE affected, the brain parts themselves do the same things in all of us. If my amygdala is hit and yours is hit too, we're gonna be scared of the moon together. :)  And at least in that sense, at least both of our amygdala's work properly!  Um - a little TOO properly thank you. :)
But at least we can look to brain and body structures to explain our symptoms. 
Why some people only have certain symptoms and others are hit with like - everything - is beyond me. I had mostly mental and some physical.  Others are like mostly physical but they aren't feeling like the raving lunatic I was.  Thank God for them. :)

I"ll never truly get it! :D

:)[...]

Firstly excellent post [...].

One of the reasons there is such a variety of symptoms & withdrawal experiences is that there are hundreds of GABA subunits, all of which play a role in the release of GABA & consequently the other neurotransmitters. Each benzo binds to different subunits & has its own unique chemical pathway.

Each of those subunits in turn has its own unique genetic code so the range of variables is huge. The discovery that there are so many subunits is relatively new & researchers have only identified some of the receptors & their ligands, (chemicals that willbind the receptors).

Thankfully, in spite of not really knowing why, we heal anyway.

BTW, the amygdala is very involved in sleep wake cycles so dysregulation probably explains some of the insomnia mayhem.

Thank you! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


[...] :)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2012, 01:01:02 am »
This is the best post I've ever read on this forum.
My amygdala would thank you, if it weren't so afraid.
My hippocampus would thank you, if it could remember how.
My prefrontal cortex is planning to thank you, but can't seem to get started.
My temporal lobes can hear the words, Thank you, Thank you, [...]...
but in reality, it's just the whirr of the ceiling fan.
My visual cortex thinks this reply is wayyyyyy long,
so I'll just stop suddenly right h

Nothing wrong with your brain, [...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2012, 01:29:01 am »
I'm glad this is helping with a picture of what is going on up there.   Like you guys, I have several engineers in my family.  They have no time to listen to physiology.  The best examples for stuff like this are concrete, aren't they?  Seriously, did you EVER think there was so much junk swimming in the soup of your head? :)

Redeven.... LOL! You are quite the wit - even in recovery!

[...] - you're correct.  Each of these brain structures isn't solely [...] island in the water...  The hippocampus does more than just "memory".  The amygdala more than just "fear".  There are so many brain structures - and I have forgotten many of them from school.  But it makes it even more complicated to understand this whole dealio. :D   But I liked your more granular description of the subunits and how each benzo is different.  I can totally see that. 

Also - for several of the months I was taking Remeron, I would notice a HUGE difference in just my vision right after I dosed.  It would CORRECT right away - the color, the brightness - It was amazing. The only window I had from the visual fog/dr was after I had taken Remeron for a weeks.  I honestly, intuitively think that some of our symptoms at a certain point are VERY related to the lack of appropriate normal levels of serotonin. The Remeron wasn't affecting GABA at all - but it WAS putting serotonin into the system. And after reading about that more in depth, I learned that serotonin regulates the RELEASE of GABA and Glutamate into the system. I didn't know that before - and that shed some light on why some of my actual cognitive or "non-mood" related symptoms were improving with the Remeron. I had NO idea how very pervasive serotonin was in the system and how multi-faceted its purpose was.  I kinda mostly figured it to be basically "the happy hormone" . But I have since learned through trial-and-error with Remeron doses that serotonin does SO much more in our brains.   I have literally had my auditory function restored in 10 minutes after a VERY small Remreon dose after having not taken any for 2 weeks.  Same goes for my vision.  And Remeron acts automatically to release serotonin (not like [...] SSRI that only prevents the reuptake of it ). Remeron releases serotonin directly from presynaptic receptors and "turns on the faucet" releasing serotonin DIRECTLY into the brain.  And I have been able to experience firsthand the effects of that in terms of neural impact.  It's been wild. 

Another thing I had to "play with" all throughout this process that I have been able to "see happen" in my experience is my actual serotonin growth. I could TELL when GABA and serotonin were "coming back" along the way in this process -because my current stable dose of Remeron started to make me "too happy" along the way. That was a sign to me that my own brain was responding and readily making at least some serotonin! I'd initially have a hard time adjusting to the cut.  But in a month or so, I was again "too happy" at the reduced dose of Remeron. So, I'd cut the Remeron down a little bit and wait to allow my brain's own serotonin to come back online. In the VERY beginning of recovery, I was SO disordered that I had NO way to make this serotonin hands down. I didn't have GABA. I couldn't sleep. I was in constant Glutamate storm. I was MESSSEED UuuPPPP. :)  So accepting the Remeron as a help may have actually helped save my brain as part of a "propping up" chemically to even allow the sleep required to heal.
And ss the GABA healed and serotonin began to come back online, I'd cut a little more.  It was up and down at around 3mg for a few months.  I would cut some and realize I wasn't ready to cut more and back and forth like this. But finally I just got to a healing point at 10-11 months and was able to reduce the remaining 3mg to zero in like 2 weeks.  It was unbelievable. I [...] [...] lacking enough serotonin. But I [...] actually to a point where I [...] more actively making enough to sustain my system.


Point blank, guys:

At some point in this game - here is what STARTS to happen...
The GABA starts to come back online
The Glutamate starts to die down.
Yeah - there are some bad nights for sleep when the GABA is under fire and the Glutamate is "up in [...]" and you sleep awful.
But the[...] night, the reverse may happen and you get AWESOME sleep.
This is where you really start to see relative windows and waves. One day GABA is great.  THe[...] day it's not - and glutamate is allowed to run amock and you get symptoms.  In the meantime you have serotonin [...] to be made, used up, released, not released. The whole thing starts and stops.
But EVENTUALLY - and you can start to see why this takes so long - EVENTUALLY it all FINALLY starts to calm down and things are finally running and operating smoothly.
This hasn't fully happened to me yet. I'm not healed. But intuitively I'm starting to grasp that this is what is going on.

Again - it's the VISION we can hang onto in our minds of what is happening and going to happen that we need to cling to. Cling to the vision of it happening. Cling to the logic.  It's going to take awhile potentially. But the logic is somthing we can know in our minds - even while our brains are reacting all over the place.  This vision is what is getting me through. I feel like "I'm smarter than this process. I've got a handle on this now.  It can't beat me down, because I know what the heck is going on!". :)

Not that I'm confident all the time... but I'm getting more and more so.

Thank you all, also - for the kind things you have said. 

:)[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2012, 02:00:49 am »
I'm glad this is helping with a picture of what is going on up there.   Like you guys, I have several engineers in my family.  They have no time to listen to physiology.  The best examples for stuff like this are concrete, aren't they?  Seriously, did you EVER think there was so much junk swimming in the soup of your head? :)

Redeven.... LOL! You are quite the wit - even in recovery!

[...] - you're correct.  Each of these brain structures isn't solely [...] island in the water...  The hippocampus does more than just "memory".  The amygdala more than just "fear".  There are so many brain structures - and I have forgotten many of them from school.  But it makes it even more complicated to understand this whole dealio. :D   But I liked your more granular description of the subunits and how each benzo is different.  I can totally see that. 

Also - for several of the months I was taking Remeron, I would notice a HUGE difference in just my vision right after I dosed.  It would CORRECT right away - the color, the brightness - It was amazing. The only window I had from the visual fog/dr was after I had taken Remeron for a weeks.  I honestly, intuitively think that some of our symptoms at a certain point are VERY related to the lack of appropriate normal levels of serotonin. The Remeron wasn't affecting GABA at all - but it WAS putting serotonin into the system. And after reading about that more in depth, I learned that serotonin regulates the RELEASE of GABA and Glutamate into the system. I didn't know that before - and that shed some light on why some of my actual cognitive or "non-mood" related symptoms were improving with the Remeron. I had NO idea how very pervasive serotonin was in the system and how multi-faceted its purpose was.  I kinda mostly figured it to be basically "the happy hormone" . But I have since learned through trial-and-error with Remeron doses that serotonin does SO much more in our brains.   I have literally had my auditory function restored in 10 minutes after a VERY small Remreon dose after having not taken any for 2 weeks.  Same goes for my vision.  And Remeron acts automatically to release serotonin (not like [...] SSRI that only prevents the reuptake of it ). Remeron releases serotonin directly from presynaptic receptors and "turns on the faucet" releasing serotonin DIRECTLY into the brain.  And I have been able to experience firsthand the effects of that in terms of neural impact.  It's been wild. 

Another thing I had to "play with" all throughout this process that I have been able to "see happen" in my experience is my actual serotonin growth. I could TELL when GABA and serotonin were "coming back" along the way in this process -because my current stable dose of Remeron started to make me "too happy" along the way. That was a sign to me that my own brain was responding and readily making at least some serotonin! I'd initially have a hard time adjusting to the cut.  But in a month or so, I was again "too happy" at the reduced dose of Remeron. So, I'd cut the Remeron down a little bit and wait to allow my brain's own serotonin to come back online. In the VERY beginning of recovery, I was SO disordered that I had NO way to make this serotonin hands down. I didn't have GABA. I couldn't sleep. I was in constant Glutamate storm. I was MESSSEED UuuPPPP. :)  So accepting the Remeron as a help may have actually helped save my brain as part of a "propping up" chemically to even allow the sleep required to heal.
And ss the GABA healed and serotonin began to come back online, I'd cut a little more.  It was up and down at around 3mg for a few months.  I would cut some and realize I wasn't ready to cut more and back and forth like this. But finally I just got to a healing point at 10-11 months and was able to reduce the remaining 3mg to zero in like 2 weeks.  It was unbelievable. I [...] [...] lacking enough serotonin. But I [...] actually to a point where I [...] more actively making enough to sustain my system.


Point blank, guys:

At some point in this game - here is what STARTS to happen...
The GABA starts to come back online
The Glutamate starts to die down.
Yeah - there are some bad nights for sleep when the GABA is under fire and the Glutamate is "up in [...]" and you sleep awful.
But the[...] night, the reverse may happen and you get AWESOME sleep.
This is where you really start to see relative windows and waves. One day GABA is great.  THe[...] day it's not - and glutamate is allowed to run amock and you get symptoms.  In the meantime you have serotonin [...] to be made, used up, released, not released. The whole thing starts and stops.
But EVENTUALLY - and you can start to see why this takes so long - EVENTUALLY it all FINALLY starts to calm down and things are finally running and operating smoothly.
This hasn't fully happened to me yet. I'm not healed. But intuitively I'm starting to grasp that this is what is going on.

Again - it's the VISION we can hang onto in our minds of what is happening and going to happen that we need to cling to. Cling to the vision of it happening. Cling to the logic.  It's going to take awhile potentially. But the logic is somthing we can know in our minds - even while our brains are reacting all over the place.  This vision is what is getting me through. I feel like "I'm smarter than this process. I've got a handle on this now.  It can't beat me down, because I know what the heck is going on!". :)

Not that I'm confident all the time... but I'm getting more and more so.

Thank you all, also - for the kind things you have said. 

:)[...]

[...] glad the Remeron helped you. 5 months out I took 30 mgs and it was just like when I was on pheno for my cold turkey. It was horrible. Brain all swimmy, hung over, flashing lights when my eyes were closed, tired but wired could not sleep. It was horrible. I was afraid to try it again, although I know that some of the problem was the high dose. I was told I had to take that much.

I have thought about [...] it again to see if it will lift this black cloud in my soul. Doc gave me celexa but very hesitant to try.

Glad you are doing better.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2012, 02:31:36 am »
Oh yes, [...] - I definitely think that your dose of Remeron being high might have been part of the challenge.

Remeron acts on:
-histamine receptors (makes you TIRED)
- serotonin  - releases serotonin DIRECTLY into the system right away
- norepinephrine (which is the brain's 'adrenaline" - also known as "noradrenaline") (what? WHY would you want THIS??)

From what I have read on psychiatry boards and from message boards (and this is by no means "research" but it makes intuitve sense) - is that from about 15mg of Remeron and LOWER - the "histamine" effects can tend to "overpower" the norepinephrine effects of Remeron. But at that 15mg or less, you [...] get the serotonin benefit.
HOWEVER - at 15mg and HIGHER doses, the histamine effect is the same , but the norepinephrine comes in [...] and you get a net effect of a BIG REVVING. Great if you have typical depression. But NOT great in benzo recovery!

In the begining of recovery - 15mg of Remeron did nothing for me in terms of mood. I was SEVERELY depressed. It let me eat and sleep. That was IT. The serotonin contribution it made could simply not help me feel ANY better at that point.
But after 3 months, only 11mg of Remeron made me EXTREMELY happy. THAT much healing had occured that LESS Remeron was making me high as a kite. Um - that was now too much. So I started to cut it down.

Fast forward - at 10 months I was high as a kite on only 3 MG of Remeron!  The more healing that occured, the less REmeron I needed to feel giddy and like I was the happiest person on earth. Obviously that was not my goal. :) So I kept cutting it.  ANd finally I didn't need it.
But that Remeron is POWERFUL.

My advice at this point if you DO try it is to try ONLY 3.75 or less (that's only 1/4th of a pill).  That may be ALL you need. Try that for a good 2 weeks. That may be all you need to feel wonderful this far out.  Others have taken it too and stayed on this amount for some time after recovery.  ALSO - be prepared to be a little overtired for a week or so -but your body will adjust to the histamine effect quickly and the serotonin will kick in fast.  This was my experience.  OBVIOUSLY talk to your doctor - etc.etc. etc. I [...] not a doctor. etc. etc. etc.

Finally - you CAN have Remeron made into a liquid at a compounding pharmacy - I did. That way I can measure 3.75 ml of liquid instead of dry cutting the Remeron into 1/4th of a pill.  That made my dosing of it very accurate since there was no way I needed more than 1/4th.  If I really wanted to feel good, I'd just have stayed on that dose! :) I just felt ready to try to go without it, but other buddies HAVE stayed on it longer - and if I hadn't had that jump at 11 months, I would [...] be on it.  And without fear or worry. 
So if you do decide to try it, realize you can stop it if you hate it. And that you may not need but very little of it this far out.  ;)

[...] that helps. :)

:)[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: What is happening in your brain?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2012, 02:34:40 am »
  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:24:53 am by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.