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Jillie needs help


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Hi,

 

My name is Jillie, and I'm new to this site and could really use your suggestions and support.

 

As I think I've written in either my introduction or my signature, I was kept on Klonopin for 12 years. I took my medication/poison exactly as prescribed, and at one point, was taking as much as 4mg after one genius of a doctor insisted I double my dose.

 

Anyway, In March of 2006, I started noticing that my eyes were swelling (they still are, and I'll need surgery to correct damage), I was losing hair, my skin was burning, etc. I spent a year trying to figure out the cause, and finally figured out that Klonopin was to blame.

 

I also came to realize that I had been experiencing tolerance withdrawal for years and years. (I took my medication on a daily basis, as instructed.)

 

I demanded to be taken off Klonopin, and was instructed to stop cold turkey, once in August of 2006 (I reinstated), once in February of 2007 (I went nuts, but instead of reinstating at 3mg, only went back on 2mg), and finally, in April of 2007.

This was what I was told to do.

 

After the April c/t, I went nuts, and 9 days later, my doctor was finally convinced by me to try the Ashton method, and placed me on 40mg Valium. This was mid-April.

 

Since this time, I've had no relief. At first, I cut by 2mg a week, but after ending up in the hospital for a week in July due to diarrhea/dehydration, I started making 1mg cuts.

 

I'm now down to 18mg Valium, and suffering greatly. I'm so nauseous that I can't move or turn my head. I have every mental and physical symptom you can imagine, and am wondering if the 1mg cuts are too large.

 

Also, as I just posted in my blog, I'm feeling very wired and notice a huge increase in my morning panic/anxiety/nausea. (I have constant flu-like nausea, but also morning anxiety-related nausea.) I feel as though I've been injected with stimulants.

 

I'm trying to cut by 1mg for as long as I can, but am considering tapering by .5mg. I'd be very grateful for any suggestions you may have for me, and I thank you for your time.

 

 

 

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Hi Jillie,

 

I've replied to your PM.

 

It sounds as though you are tapering too quickly for you. We usually recommend that people only make a new cut once they feel reasonably recovered from their previous cut. 1mg cuts from a dose of 18mg can be tolerated by most people, but not all. Changing the cuts to 0.5mg will do no harm and may help. More frequent smaller cuts are better tolerated than less frequent larger cuts. First though, in your shoes, I'd stabilise my dose for a few weeks until I felt better. We can then discuss what might be a sensible taper plan. If it turns out that you cannot tolerate even very small cuts, you then could consider using titration to make minuscule daily (or near daily) cuts to your dose. This has helped a number of people who have hit a wall with their withdrawal. First thing's first though: stabilise your dose until you feel some improvement.

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Hi Jillie,

 

I've replied to your PM.

 

It sounds as though you are tapering too quickly for you. We usually recommend that people only make a new cut once they feel reasonably recovered from their previous cut. 1mg cuts from a dose of 18mg can be tolerated by most people, but not all. Changing the cuts to 0.5mg will do no harm and may help. More frequent smaller cuts are better tolerated than less frequent larger cuts. First though, in your shoes, I'd stabilise my dose for a few weeks until I felt better. We can then discuss what might be a sensible taper plan. If it turns out that you cannot tolerate even very small cuts, you then could consider using titration to make minuscule daily (or near daily) cuts to your dose. This has helped a number of people who have hit a wall with their withdrawal. First thing's first though: stabilise your dose until you feel some improvement.

 

Hi Colin,

 

Thank you so much for replying to my PM, to which I've just replied again. I don't want to wait longer than 2 weeks (which will be next Friday) before making another cut, so I'll hopefully feel an improvement before then. I've long thought that weekly .5 cuts would be less of a shock to my system (which is VERY sensitive) than 1mg cuts every 10 days. By "more frequent", did you mean weekly?

 

Thanks so much,

Jillie

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Hi Jillie,

 

If you have been cutting too quickly for some time, it will take some time for you body to addapt. In your shoes I'd take a more open approach, and starting cutting again when things have settled to level that is more manageable, even if it takes longer than two weeks. The chances are, from what you have written, that you will need more time to stabilise. Giving yourself some time now might mean that you proceed more quickly (and more smoothly) later.

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Hi Jillie,

 

If you have been cutting too quickly for some time, it will take some time for you body to addapt. In your shoes I'd take a more open approach, and starting cutting again when things have settled to level that is more manageable, even if it takes longer than two weeks. The chances are, from what you have written, that you will need more time to stabilise. Giving yourself some time now might mean that you proceed more quickly (and more smoothly) later.

 

Hi Colin,

 

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure I'll feel an improvement by next Friday, but do hope you can understand that I need to do what's comfortable for me, and I'm simply not comfortable waiting longer than 2 weeks between cuts. I'm feeling guilty and don't mean to be difficult, but I develop tolerance if I wait longer than 2 weeks. I'm already crying tears of happiness at the very thought of slowing things down (making .5 cuts). I feel a sense of hope about this, and am also interested in titration. Thank you so much for your time and help, Colin. I'm so thankful for your site.

 

Best wishes,

Jillie

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Hi Jillie,

 

I don't mean that you should always leave two weeks or more between cuts, just you allow yourself enough time now to stabilise. Once you feel better you should be able to make regular cuts so long as they are small enough. ;)

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Hi Jillie,

 

I don't mean that you should always leave two weeks or more between cuts, just you allow yourself enough time now to stabilise. Once you feel better you should be able to make regular cuts so long as they are small enough. ;)

 

Hi Colin,

 

We're on the same page.  :) I'm interpreting "stabilize" as reaching a point at which my symptoms have abated enough for me to feel well enough to make a cut. Is this correct?

 

Thanks,

Jillie (Who is excited by the very thought of .5 cuts)  :yippee:

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Hi,

 

I think so!? :wacko:

 

I just mean that if you have been racing ahead of what you can manage for some time, it will take some extra time now to stabilise. Once you are feel better, you can begin to make regular cuts again. You would probably need to make smaller cuts though. It's just about allowing your system time to recover from the past overoptimistic taper rate, that's all.

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Hi,

 

I think so!? :wacko:

 

I just mean that if you have been racing ahead of what you can manage for some time, it will take some extra time now to stabilise. Once you are feel better, you can begin to make regular cuts again. You would probably need to make smaller cuts though. It's just about allowing your system time to recover from the past overoptimistic taper rate, that's all.

 

Thanks, Colin. I understand. I've also decided that when I do make cuts again, they will be .5mg cuts, as opposed to 1mg cuts. I'm tiny, I'm sick, my body is sensitive to everything, yet I've been trying to taper at a world record pace because I want this to be over with so badly.

 

In less than 6 months, I've tapered from 40mg to 18mg!

 

Every cut has been difficult for me, even when I was feeling "well" (it's all relative in withdrawal) prior to cutting down.

 

I'm being unrealistic, and I have to face that. It may take longer for me to taper, but I will hopefully be saner and better able to cope with the mental and physical symptoms.

 

Much thanks,

Jillie

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Hi

Thats kind of the mind set that most of us go through, The I cant stand the way I feel therefore the faster I'm off this stuff the sooner I wont feel bad. Unfortunately speeding through the taper increases the bad feelings which makes you want to get off faster, a vicious cycle.

A taper schedule isn't written in stone and how you feel should dictate your taper speed not some ethereal number.

It took me as long to go from 4mg-0Mg's as it did to go from 12.5-4Mg's. Please listen to your body.

TC

Bobers

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Hi

Thats kind of the mind set that most of us go through, The I cant stand the way I feel therefore the faster I'm off this stuff the sooner I wont feel bad. Unfortunately speeding through the taper increases the bad feelings which makes you want to get off faster, a vicious cycle.

A taper schedule isn't written in stone and how you feel should dictate your taper speed not some ethereal number.

It took me as long to go from 4mg-0Mg's as it did to go from 12.5-4Mg's. Please listen to your body.

TC

Bobers

 

Hi Bobers,

 

Thank you so much for your words. Oddly, I'm more bothered by the physical symptoms than the mental symptoms. I think I posted my symptoms somewhere, but I truly have every one you can imagine. Even water makes my skin burn and blister. My eyes are on fire and swollen. My skin itches, burns, and stings from head to toe. My eyebrows and hair have been falling out. I have nonstop nausea and abdominal pain. (Yes, I'm a lot of fun to be around.) The mental symptoms are hideous, too. I just want this to be over with, Bobers, but I'm realizing that I'm probably doing more harm than good at the moment. Thanks for support.

 

Jillie

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HI, Jillie,

 

I've replied to you on another thread...maybe your blog? Benzo brain here...  :crazy:

 

What Bobers says is so true. I found that during my taper, the more I wanted to get off, the more I actually needed to slow down!

 

Therese

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HI, Jillie,

 

I've replied to you on another thread...maybe your blog? Benzo brain here...  :crazy:

 

What Bobers says is so true. I found that during my taper, the more I wanted to get off, the more I actually needed to slow down!

 

Therese

 

Hi Therese,

 

Thanks so much for your input. I read what you wrote on my blog, and it made a lot of sense. After much convincing, my doctor switched me to Valium after yanking me off the Klonopin for the third time. (This was in April...) He finally agreed to use the Ashton Method (although I was denied the crossover), and put me on the equivalent of Valium. (40mg of Valium is the equivalent of 2mg Klonopin, according to Ashton.) Well, I just saw a different table on this site, and see that some disagree with Ashton's equivalency. I'm concerned about this, as I thought Ashton was the guru on the topic. I'm now down to 18mg of Valium, and thank you for your support, Therese. I'll stay put for now, and resume with smaller cuts. I'm hoping I can get receive continued guidance from this site when it comes time for me to taper again.

 

Hugs,

Jillie

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Hi Jillie,

 

I need to return to that table. Ashtons figures are based upon what is needed for substitution. Ashton claims that what is an equivalent therapeutic dose is not the same as what is needed when substituting with Valium. It does sound rather counterintuitive, but she does base it upon clinical experience. This is the cause of many problems when presenting the information to doctors, as their local official equivalency charts (rightly) indicate a different dose to Ashton's. The problem is that they are actually talking about two different things. I take Ashton's figures on trust, as I'm not aware of any properly conducted trials to check Ashton's assertions. I trust Ashton before any of the other sources when it comes to substitution.

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Hi, Jille,

 

I guess I'm not aware of that table. But I do know that from time to time, someone says that their doctor has his own equivalency chart with numbers different from Ashton's. I think what Colin is saying (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if someone is chemically dependent on benzos, they need a different amount of Valium to cover the symptoms that would surface from discontinuing the old benzo. I think that the other equivalency charts may be for situations where someone is not chemically dependent on benzos and is switching from one benzo to another. But, even if I'm not explaining this right, I want to set your mind at ease with following Ashton. You did the right thing. :)

 

Therese

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I'm not aware that Ashton has provided an explanation of the cause of the difference in figures; she just provides the observation and the equivalent doses that worked for substitution. I have an idea of what might be the cause, but I'll see what I can figure out before I post my ideas.

 

I don't think it is connected with dependency as such, just that there is some disruption with the switch. This is another reason why I don't automatically recommend substitution - people may end up with a longer withdrawal if their relative dose increases. I would advise people to taper with their present benzo, and substitute at a lower dose if the need arises. If there is an increase in relative dose with substitution, it would be better for this to happen at a lower rather than higher dose! The doubling of a small dose is less significant than the doubling of a high dose. ;)

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I'm not aware that Ashton has provided an explanation of the cause of the difference in figures; she just provides the observation and the equivalent doses that worked for substitution. I have an idea of what might be the cause, but I'll see what I can figure out before I post my ideas.

 

I don't think it is connected with dependency as such, just that there is some disruption with the switch. This is another reason why I don't automatically recommend substitution - people may end up with a longer withdrawal if their relative dose increases. I would advise people to taper with their present benzo, and substitute at a lower dose if the need arises. If there is an increase in relative dose with substitution, it would be better for this to happen at a lower rather than higher dose! The doubling of a small dose is less significant than the doubling of a high dose. ;)

 

Thank you, Therese and Colin,

 

I obviously can't go back now, so I'm with the Ashton plan. Colin, because I was yanked off the Klonopin (2mg) and placed on Ashton's Valium equivalency (40mg) 9 days later, did I still "substitute"? I was denied a gradual crossover to the Valium, so I've always wondered about this.

 

Prior to reaching 2mg of Klonopin, I had gotten myself down from 4mg Klonopin (far worse than tapering from Valium, surprisingly) to 3mg, and was cold turkeyed off of 3mg in February . I reinstated at 2mg Klonopin instead of 3mg, and was then cold turkeyed from 2mg in April, at which point I was switched to the Valium when my doctor freaked out upon seeing me.

 

So, do I still qualify as a "substituter" even though I didn't have the gradual crossover period?

 

Also, I'm still having a hard time understanding why Ashton's equivalency had me jump from 2mg Klonopin to 40mg Valium, while according to others, I could have jumped from 2mg Klonopin to 20mg Valium. I'm just so confused.

 

As I'm now on 18mg Valium, does that mean I've reached the equivalent of slightly under 1mg Klonopin (according to Ashton), or 1.8mg Klonopin (according to others)?

 

I can't thank you enough for your time, advice, and insight.

 

Thank you infinity,

Jillie

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As far as therapeutic effects go, then I'd say that 18mg of Valium is is probably equivalent to about 1.8mg of Klonopin. At the end of the day, you are tapering off, and that's the most important thing. Who's to say anyway that you could have managed on less than 40mg of Valium.

 

Yes, I would agree that you have substituted.

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As far as therapeutic effects go, then I'd say that 18mg of Valium is is probably equivalent to about 1.8mg of Klonopin. At the end of the day, you are tapering off, and that's the most important thing. Who's to say anyway that you could have managed on less than 40mg of Valium.

 

Yes, I would agree that you have substituted.

 

Thanks, Colin,

 

My, this is depressing. I thought I was at the equivalent of just under 1mg of Klonopin. So, by what you're saying, I'm essentially back from where I started, which was 2mg Klonopin before the substitution. I've been so ill, and was cheering myself on by thinking I'm at least below the equivalent of 1mg of Klonopin. Who knows? Maybe I am. I mean, I was hospitalized due to withdrawal-related dehydration while down to 30mg Valium, which, according to what you wrote above, means that I was at a therapeutic level of 3mg Klonopin. This value is more than my original 2mg Klonopin, so that wouldn't make sense. Is it possible that Ashton's equivalencies are actual equivalencies?

 

Thanks,

Jillie :'(

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Hi Jillie,

 

I wouldn't dwell upon it. My view maybe wrong; certainly many would dispute it. Valium is much the better drug to be tapering with. I was giving what I believe to be the more probable figure for an equivalent therapeutic dose. As I have already outlined, according to Ashton's observations, that is not the same as and equivalent dose for the purposes of substitution. Your switch may well be making your withdrawal easier, and equivalent doses do vary with the individual anyway.

 

You asked straight question, and I gave you a straight answer. My answer may not be correct, and it is certainly not correct for all people. It is all very inexact I'm afraid.

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Hi Jillie,

 

I wouldn't dwell upon it. My view maybe wrong; certainly many would dispute it. Valium is much the better drug to be tapering with. I was giving what I believe to be the more probable figure for an equivalent therapeutic dose. As I have already outlined, according to Ashton's observations, that is not the same as and equivalent dose for the purposes of substitution. Your switch may well be making your withdrawal easier, and equivalent doses do vary with the individual anyway.

 

You asked straight question, and I gave you a straight answer. My answer may not be correct, and it is certainly not correct for all people. It is all very inexact I'm afraid.

 

Hi Colin,

 

Thank you for your message. I apologize for my confusion :idiot: (I haven't slept in months) and appreciate your time.

I hope you have a pleasant day.

 

Jillie

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Colin,

 

It would seem that for someone who is chemically dependent, benzos don't have much of a therapeutic effect, period. They just keep the person from going into w/d. Is that considered a therapeutic effect?

 

Therese

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Jillie,

 

Regardless of why there are different subsitution tables out there--and I don't understand it either!--remember that Ashton's equivalencies are based on years of experience with withdrawing people from benzos. That means that they are reliable. When I switched from .25 mg Klonopin to 5 mg Valium, I know that I couldn't have managed on anything less than the 5 mg. So Ashton's equivalencies were borne out in my own experience as well.

 

I would say that if you switched to Valium based on Ashton's equivalencies, then you should go ahead and view your taper in those terms as well. So if I were in your shoes, I would also be considering myself to be slightly under 1 mg Klonopin. I did these kinds of comparisons often during my taper too. I remember at one point saying to myself that I had gotten down to a quarter of a tablet of Klonopin....that was the dose at which I had stopped my previous (failed) taper because of symptoms. I was so proud of myself to be able to get to that point...and beyond!

 

It's very tempting to think the worst of ourselves while we are withdrawing from benzos, but we have to be kind to ourselves. You're doing a great job, Jillie! You are halfway there! :)

 

Therese

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Jillie,

 

Regardless of why there are different subsitution tables out there--and I don't understand it either!--remember that Ashton's equivalencies are based on years of experience with withdrawing people from benzos. That means that they are reliable. When I switched from .25 mg Klonopin to 5 mg Valium, I know that I couldn't have managed on anything less than the 5 mg. So Ashton's equivalencies were borne out in my own experience as well.

 

I would say that if you switched to Valium based on Ashton's equivalencies, then you should go ahead and view your taper in those terms as well. So if I were in your shoes, I would also be considering myself to be slightly under 1 mg Klonopin. I did these kinds of comparisons often during my taper too. I remember at one point saying to myself that I had gotten down to a quarter of a tablet of Klonopin....that was the dose at which I had stopped my previous (failed) taper because of symptoms. I was so proud of myself to be able to get to that point...and beyond!

 

It's very tempting to think the worst of ourselves while we are withdrawing from benzos, but we have to be kind to ourselves. You're doing a great job, Jillie! You are halfway there! :)

 

Therese

 

Oh Therese,

 

Thank you so much for your message. It made me feel so good that you understand how I make equivalence calculations to cheer myself on, Therese. At 18mg Valium, I now consider myself to be below 1mg of Klonopin, which is amazing! My brain hasn't been below 1mg of Klonopin in 12 years! It's not even that I'm obsessing over the equivalency issue; it's just important to me, and a great source of motivation. As sick as I've been, it helps keep me going.

 

I did some research, and Ashton believes that 1mg Klonopin is the equivalent of 20mg Valium in all cases; it isn't a matter of substitution only. And like you, from my own experience, I know that it has to be correct. So, I'm going to pat myself on the back for being below 1mg Klonopin. Yeah Jillie.  :yippee:

 

I've really been enjoying this site. I love the way it's designed, all of its features, and the caring nature of its moderators.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience and opinions with me! I appreciate your support....

 

Love,

Jillie

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