Please help -

What is kindling?

 

You may find the search box (top right of the page) helpful as well as Vertigo's explanation.  It will give you all of the references to 'kindling' used on this site ie people's experiences with it.  Also, if you start at "HOME" it gives a full history of its use.

 

Hope that helps

hbam

thanks guys - i'm feeling so down and hopeless this morning - just broke down on the phone to my wife, never cried to her before.  I'm just so sick.  Vertigo - I'm going to reach out to that dr. you shared with me and see if I can meet with him.  I know that adding a new drug is not what I need to do - the k is not making me feel good either. but I've restarted it now for a few days so probably going to have to continue it and taper - wake up severly depressed when taking it and it makes me so weak - and I only take such a small dose of it - shouldn't be that sensitive.

 

Because it's such a small dose - shouldn't I be able to taper gradually - I mean .125 or .25 of a pill is tiny compared to what many of you have taken.    I need to read up on cutting - any advice you all on cutting and a taper plan, please let me know.  I know that I'm in a world of pain right now with so much stress and there is not really an end in sight.

Sometimes you gotta fall first before mustering the courage to get yourself up and stay up, basgopsu.  I'm sorry you are feeling so ill.  I think it's good that you are honest with your family. You may be experiencing some kindling which could be that the previous dose of klonopin that you were on may not quite be enough to do what it used to do when you took it before along with possibly experiencing withdrawal symptoms despite taking the same dose as before.  Try not to freak out about the idea of kindling or "tolerance withdrawal".  Also, if you read around forum or on this thread of people who had strong symptoms either on or coming off klonopin, it does not mean you are going to have the same experience.  Everyone is different.  You might get through this much smoother than you think.  It is also possible that after a few more days of the klonopin you were taking before,  it may kick in better. 

 

It is also possible  that a slightly larger dose of K could help stabilize things, if kindling and/or tolerance  might be happening.  If it were me, this might be a time to consider a cross over to valium in which you take the current dose of klonopin and add maybe 2mg valium for a week or two, then as more valium is increased, you slowly wean off some of the klonopin, then hopefully stabilize over a month or two and then begin a very gradual taper off.  Perhaps your doctor can help with that?  Do you think your doctor would be willing to prescribe 2mg valium at this point?  You might also post an inquiry in the tapering section of forum about how to best cross over to valium and mention the possibility of kindling, that current dose may not be working as it did in the past.  The other option would be to increase the klonopin a small amount and see how that goes for a couple weeks, with doctor agreement of course.  Also, bear in mind that regardless of what you decide, it is quite possible that you may not feel all that "great" for a while.  It can take some time to adjust to being back on a benzo.  By the same token, it sometimes takes some time to get used to valium as compared with Klonopin since they are not exactly the same and you might notice some differences.  Keep the goals realistic, which to me would be to try and get to a point of feeling decent, but not necessarily fantastic (for now).

 

You might ultimately feel a little better on about 7mg valium (which is about 2mg more than what you are currently taking in equivalent klonopin) due to the possible kindling from previous use, going off and now back on, plus the valium will stay steady in your blood compared with other benzos.  As I recall I think you are currently taking the equivalent of 5mg valium?.  I had something  similar to either kindling or tolerance happen to me by the way.  About six weeks after reinstating 5mg valium back in summer 2008, I ended up having to updose to 7mg due to tolerance and/or kindling.  I held for a couple months at the 7mg and then began my taper off valium in January 2009.

 

  As far as other medications, it's up to you and your doctor(s).  I think it's not a bad idea to get a second opinion. If you have had issues with SSRIs in the past, maybe there is something else that can help your mood.  Personally, I think it might be helpful to try the crossover and see if that helps first, but that is juse one man's opinion.  If you are still having problems a month from now, then you could always add another medication if your doctor thinks it might help.  A couple of buddies from another forum which is no longer in existence had reported positive things about a doctor in Georgia being "benzo wise".  From what I recall, one buddy reported that he was familiar with the Ashton Manual and was open to slow tapers, also that he might prescribe liquid valium when appropriate while not being aggressive in pushing other medications unless the patient felt it was really needed beyond the benzo.  I recall the buddy telling me that it helped if he went in with a written taper plan, which would be easy enough to get help with on this forum.  Ultimately, I'm not a doctor and it's best to find a good one who is flexible and knowledgeable.  I can only report on my own experiences.

 

Hope you feel better soon,

 

Vertigo

Sorry to hear things aren't going so well this morning.  Mornings can be tough.  I don't know anything about K but I do know that I was happy to go from lorazepam to valium.  It really stopped all the issues I was having between doses.  But I'm not sure that's the problem you're having.  It sounds like the K just isn't hitting hard enough to work even for a little while.  If you're already unstable, and the K isn't working, maybe it's worth trying something else, maybe the valium.  It may just react differently enough with you to make you feel better.  Or at least be more sedating.

 

I hope you feel better, I reckon you're just in the worst of it right now which means you should be feeling a bit better soon.

No this is the dose I was taking.  I guess it is good that I couldn't take more bc it knocked me out.  Just took another dose and I swear it feels like pins and needles everywhere and adrenaline surges and anxiety.  Can the k cause more anxiety? Or ami having anxiety not being controlled by k.  Been so depressed all morning and now anxiety thru roof.

 

First, a side effect of benzo withdrawal is hypochondria and increased anxiety.  The more you worry yourself that you are getting more and more ill or that this won't resolve, the more anxiety and thus a vicious cycle builds up until you possibly will yourself into a panic attack.  Take some deep breaths basgopsu.  You are lucky you have a doctor who is willing to work with you and that you can reinstate. 

 

Another possible side effect (psychological) is OCD like thoughts (compulsive worrying about "what if"...).  It may even be possible that you were a worrier before or if you tended towards OCD, that you could be getting a resurgence of this as well after being off both the a/d and the klonopin for a while.  It might be helpful to read a few books on the subject of OCD whose main feature can be the fear of the unknown, i.e., uncertainty. 

 

One of the unpleasant things about benzo withdrawal and tapering is that one must enter the unknown.  Sometimes we have to learn to have a little faith that we are going to get through a rough patch in life and we may not be certain of what will happen next.  We may make a decision and it may be that after a while we may need to make an adjustment.  Listen to your doctors and if need be, get other opinions and make the best decisions you can. 

 

The pins and needles and adrenalin surges sound like withdrawal.  Having recently added back the klonopin, those nerve endings are now being stimulated "to relax" again, kind of paradoxical.  Although they "should" be calming down, the concomitant anxiety that you are having may lead to a temporary paradoxical reaction where you get revved up to a point where the original dose may not initially have the same effect as it did before.  Plus there is the possibility of kindling as already mentioned and the fact that it may take a week to settle down with being on K again.

 

My recommendations are the following:

 

1) Try to add 2mg valium to your current klonopin with the ultimate goal of a valium crossover to about 7mg (done gradually)

2)Learn mindfulness and other stress management coping skills (see The Mindful Way Through Anxiety by Roemer and Orsillo)

3)Possibly get some counseling if you can afford to do so

4)Possibly get a second medical opinion

 

Alternatively, stick with the current dose of .25 K for another few days while also trying to apply some mindfulness and relaxation strategies to help calm yourself down through the weekend.  Perhaps you can see your doctor next week and discuss the possibility of adding valium with the goal of crossing over.

 

Vertigo

Once again Vertigo hit the nails on the head.

I can't give you medical advise either, but Vertigo outlined very expertly what I would have written.

Remember that benzos have 'receptor' sites in almost ever cell of the body. K is in my experience the most difficult one of the group to get off of. It does take time and although their are commonalities with all of us, each person's system is individual and you got to go at a pace that works for you.

"Cinch by the inch, hard by the yard" Don't know who I can attribute that to but I know to me it means the same as: "How do you eat an elephant?". Just like anything else you eat (that's if you can during withdrawal -ONE BITE AT A TIME.

Persevere and live.

I was thinking of trying lexapro at a VERY low dose and trying to titrate up. I've never tried it althoughh citalapram is close relative that I tried last year.  I guess I would need to be somewhat stable on klonopin b/c I won't know if the side effects are w/d or from the lexapro.  I know I got better on the zoloft 11 years ago - GAD and OCD went away and I healed. 

 

It would be great if I could just have been able to deal w/ w/d from K as I was 2 months off and just keep going.  Now I'm 3 days back on - would it be ok to just stop again or am I playing with the kindling fire?

Ok - thinking a little better now - sorry for the desparation early - this is so hard.  I don't think adding anything in to the mix now is in my best interest and given my history - I wouldn't tolerate it anyway.  Best thing is to move forward and try to learn to cope with the anxiety somehow.

 

Now I need some really good advice  - since I've taken 3 days worth of Klonopin again, do I need to worry about just stopping or should I do what I intended to do and slowly taper off this low dose I'm on.

Ok - thinking a little better now - sorry for the desparation early - this is so hard.  I don't think adding anything in to the mix now is in my best interest and given my history - I wouldn't tolerate it anyway.  Best thing is to move forward and try to learn to cope with the anxiety somehow.

 

Now I need some really good advice  - since I've taken 3 days worth of Klonopin again, do I need to worry about just stopping or should I do what I intended to do and slowly taper off this low dose I'm on.

 

If it were me, I'd stick to the normal K dose for a few more days and see if things start to improve some over the weekend.  I like the idea of adding 2mg valium because you can eventually cross the rest over to valium when you want to taper but your doctor might not agree with that idea, probably wants you to try the lexapro.  But maybe you can bargain with her, say you want to add 2mg valium and see how you do for a couple weeks and then decide whether to add lexapro.  If you're doing better with the current dose of K plus 2mg valium, then you could make an appointment for 2nd opinion with another doctor about what next to do.  My feeling is that the current dose of K will start to work for you in a few days but you might do even better with 2mg valium.  I'd rather do that than add an SSRI.  In fact it's what I did back in 2008.  My internist tried to get me to take lexapro after I came in with a lot of anxiety one day after I had inadvertently cut 2mg off from 7 to 5mg.  He said I looked anxious.  I told him I was and that I was going to updose back to 7mg.  He knew my neurologist agreed so he could not argue.  The additional valium helped me to stabilize, no freaking SSRI needed.  Maybe you can ask your doctor for 2mg valium to add to the K with the ultimate goal of crossing over in a month.    You can run that by another doctor too?  On the other hand, it is possible if you calm down some this weekend, the original K dose may kick in for you soon.  I still think crossing to valium eventually might be the easiest way to taper down the road.

 

V

c

Have you ever considered trying St. John's Wort?  My doctor said it would be ok if I wanted to give it a try, very popular in Germany, but I think milder than the SSRIs.  Maybe it's an option down the road, but I'd still try to see (if it were me) how you feel after another few days of being back on K.

 

How are you sleeping by the way?

 

V

 

Now I'm going to shift gears and give an alternate to Vertgo's last post.

 

In my opinion, you're trying to put too many drugs in the mix right now. I think I read that you consider yourself very sensitive to medications? That I can relate to. I am sure over my life span I've been prescribed every neuropsychiatric drug currently in vogue - all with negative therapeutic effect.

 

I was especially draw to the combo of trazadone with the K. Trazadone is an awful drug too in my experience.

 

Not to be in anyway judgemental or offensive, what is you objective? Like if I can ask, what symptoms are you trying to relieve or decrease?

 

I can only tell you that right now, I was dual dependant on 30 mg OD (daily) of V and 2 -3 mg OD of K. I could not substitute more V to off set the w/d of the K without increasing to a dose that no doctor would prescribe. I just did a gradual, so I thought, taper of the K after using it this time for > 15 yrs.

 

Except for my current dose of valium, I only take Tylenol 2-500mg pills no more than 3 x's a day and even the T adds somewhat to my w/d sxs.

 

ANY chance you can see another doctor with experience with benzo pts who also might have a possible coexisting conditions and will take the time to listen to you're complete history and not just treat you as symptoms?

 

I understand you are suffering and would like it to stop. I think others have said the same thing, but any chance you can reduce some of the stressors in you life and find a program that uses less drug and more 'cognitive behavior' techniques for stress reduction? Unfortunately, most times you can only find such programs at large university teaching hospitals.

 

Buttom line from my stand point and not medical advise - don't mix and match and if at all possible don't continue the K unless you feel you may harm someone or yourself.

How's it going today basgopsu?

 

V

V - I'm ok I guess - weak and tired and wasting away.  Melancholy would be the word I would use I guess today.  The baseball stresser thing will play out this weekend and have a go or no go on Monday night.  I realize that I did this to myself and my son and that is stressing me out. with regret - but I have to let it play out.  I'm gonna try to play golf to have a distraction today - my body feels so weak and back ache is returning - but thanks for checking in.

 

Is it possible to cut / taper with measuring the K and putting the pieces in an empty gel capsule if I get an accurate scale.  Maybe do a microtaper that way.  My doc isn't going to give me valium  she says the benzo is not my problem.    I have to wait til October to see benzo friendly doc.

V - I'm ok I guess - weak and tired and wasting away.  Melancholy would be the word I would use I guess today.  The baseball stresser thing will play out this weekend and have a go or no go on Monday night.  I realize that I did this to myself and my son and that is stressing me out. with regret - but I have to let it play out.  I'm gonna try to play golf to have a distraction today - my body feels so weak and back ache is returning - but thanks for checking in.

 

Is it possible to cut / taper with measuring the K and putting the pieces in an empty gel capsule if I get an accurate scale.  Maybe do a microtaper that way.  My doc isn't going to give me valium  she says the benzo is not my problem.    I have to wait til October to see benzo friendly doc.

 

Hey Bas.  Maybe melancholy is slightly better than revved up?  How are you sleeping?  As for the baseball, hopefully it won't stress you out too much.  When I was coaching last Spring, I found that I cared too much about what a bunch of 10 year olds thought!!!  It's just a game and they're lucky to have you so don't worry too much about your performance.  As for the K, I personally wouldn't start tapering.  If it were me, I'd try to stabilize this next month, particularly with the added stress of the baseball, your comment about not doing well or being able to concentrate at work when you were off it, family stress..  and then get your second opinion from another doctor. Anyway, that's what I'd probably do but others can weigh in and ultimately you must decide for yourself with your doctor(s).

 

Enjoy the golf,

 

Vertigo

Slept better last night  here's the deal - feeling somewhat ok - butnow that i'm taking the k again, I can tell me mood swings are back.  I get angry and very impatient - I had attributed it to things I was eating but having been off the drug for 2 months, I wasn't having the mood swings.  That's why the dr. wants to put me on the mood stabliizer.  Same thing the ssri does to me with the added hyperness.  So the K is destabliizing my moods - not the foods (and believe me I eat very non inflammatory.    So I'm just not sure what to do - I'd like to reset everything to where I was last week before this baseball mess started and I probably wouldn't be having the anxiety and stress that I'm having now.  But now I'm having w/d symptoms coupled with Klonopin side effects and if I just stop taking it, I'm afraid of the kindling effect.  I have never taken it consisttenly anyway - I'd just stop taking it for a few weeks or even a month at a time w/o any realy problem - until this past time when I had the fatigue and the muscle spasm that wouldn't go away  Then the GAD came back with the baseball.

 

What to do - what to do.....  These mood swings are not fun but hte anxiety is not fun to deal with either.

Just wanted to let you know I'm here to say Hi, how's it going and let you know you are not alone.

no advise to offer.

Thanks!  It's amazing how different times of the day and different days are so different in the way this stuff effects us.  If I could feel like I feel right now - I could go on and get thru this with no problem.  But the way I felt y'day was so absolutely horrilble.  And I know that an hour or 2 from now I can be rigth back in the depths of it.

 

Thanks for being there for me thru this - how are you doing with your recovery?

I hear that.  Every day is just so different.  Ups and downs and ups and downs.  Today was a good day for me.  I had energy, symptoms weren't so bad, I could focus on things.  Just great to have these days, and they're great reminders for anyone in healing that things can and will feel better.

In a holding pattern at 27.5mg V in divided doses of 5 mg and 2.5 mg V between either 4 or 2 hr interval. I usually load the last 5 mg dose of my total daily dose at 11 pm, then another at 3, 7, 11AM. Then I take the balance at the lower dose but in shorter time frame. I've been fine tuning the times since 7/1.

I found taking the usual recommended 5 or in my case I was doing 10 mg V TID (three times a day) every 8 hrs gave me too much of a roller coaster effect.

 

I'd get calm about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 hr post dose with rare, if any sedative effects (probably because of my tolerance), then I start into an excitability state with panic like sxs, followed by bad depression.

 

My PCD (primary care doctor) - the shrinks & other specialists won't even see me anymore because of my hx (history) - has given me a lot of autonomy with my taper since all my vitals - B/P , pulse and lab work are as good as when I was in my 40's.

 

I'll stick with my current schedule until I stabilize better and can sit up longer that 1/2 hr at a time without increasing my chronic back pain.

 

Will try to recommence my aqua exercise PT program on Mon 8/6. Hope I can just get my tired old butt out of bed in time. Bad, overwhelming fatigue, but not always able to sleep. Lots of early morning wakings with racing thoughts.

 

Given I've been able to sit up to type this, sent a few emails, able to eat solid food again and do a light flexability -stretching routine earlier this evening, I'm making progress, even if it is just a little bit.

 

I will watch for any new posts by you to see how you are dealing with the beast.

You take care. Gazer