Anybody had bad experiences with daily titration (micro tapering)?

Hi

I am struggling to make a decision, on whether to micro taper or not.

I have tried to read people's experiences, but cannot glean any info that would help me decide, so I thought I would come right out and ask a question to help me decide:

Has anyone had any bad or negative experiences with microtapering, and if so, please can you describe them for me?

thanks

I just started titration (with Rice Milk).  I have heard that you should treat it like a cut when you first go on it and hold for a week or two (depending upon how you feel).  I do find that it is easier to make more accurate cuts using titration.  (I am on Klonopin).

Right now, I am planning on going down by .01 mg. weekly.

At any rate, I will know more as the days and weeks progress.  Perhaps some other buddies can chime in here as well as offer their experiences as well.

Sincerely,

fg

I just started titration (with Rice Milk).  I have heard that you should treat it like a cut when you first go on it and hold for a week or two (depending upon how you feel).  I do find that it is easier to make more accurate cuts using titration.  (I am on Klonopin).

 

Right now, I am planning on going down by .01 mg. weekly.

 

At any rate, I will know more as the days and weeks progress.  Perhaps some other buddies can chime in here as well as offer their experiences as well.

 

Sincerely,

 

fg

Hi FG

Thanks for your post.

I hope your taper goes well.

From looking at your sig line it sounds like you have been through a terrible ordeal.

I'mm thinking of daily tapering, to an amount so low that the GABA system does not 'feel' it.

Take care

I've been micro-tapering valium for about a month now and feel it works better than when I was dry cutting. I held for a day last week for a stressful event.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Bart.

I am glad thatmicrotapering is working better for you than cut and hold.

I think, what I am wondering, if there are any people out there who have abandoned micro-tapering and gone back to cut and hold.

I would like to hear from anyone who abandoned micro-tapering and went back to cut and hold, and reasons why.

This is just to help me decide whether to take the plunge.

The only problem I have run into with micro tapering (which basically I really like) is that you DO need to take intermittent holds.  It's easy to cut too much before you know it and get ahead of your body's ability to adapt to the cuts you've made and then you crash and OUCH.  And it can take a while to get to feeling good again because all those cuts you've made continue to catch up with you for a while.

I've been tapering for over two years now (five meds) and as time goes along I become more and more convinced that the holds are the key. 

So just keep in mind that cuts have a lag time and the second you feel any increase in symptoms, stop cutting for a while until you feel better.  That's been the hardest thing for me.

The only problem I have run into with micro tapering (which basically I really like) is that you DO need to take intermittent holds.  It's easy to cut too much before you know it and get ahead of your body's ability to adapt to the cuts you've made and then you crash and OUCH.  And it can take a while to get to feeling good again because all those cuts you've made continue to catch up with you for a while.

 

I've been tapering for over two years now (five meds) and as time goes along I become more and more convinced that the holds are the key. 

 

So just keep in mind that cuts have a lag time and the second you feel any increase in symptoms, stop cutting for a while until you feel better.  That's been the hardest thing for me.

This is the very thing I want to hear about.

I fear the lag time, where you can take a while to stabilise.

Isn't this the reason why you should choose small cuts in the first place?

Also, with daily cuts, I didn't think there was a need to hold, I thought, on arrival of symptoms, you just made your cuts smaller.

thanks

Hey Journey,

Love it...no holds and doing great.

Newrain

Hey Journey,

 

Love it...no holds and doing great.

 

 

Newrain

Hi Newrain

I was also on erratic benzos for years and reinstated after a cold turkey.

Thank you for shairing your titration is going well.

Do you mind telling me what size cuts you have used up till now?

Also can you tell me how you are titrating - pills/liquid?

Your post gives me encouragement as your history is like mine.

Thanks again

It is working well for me.

Hi hthought

Thank you for sharing your positive experience.

Please also can you give me some more details.

What benzo? What amount you tapered from and are on now, and the size of your cuts please?

Sorry to ask. Your post also gives me hope.

Ijust have to find what my sweet spot is.

The only problem I have run into with micro tapering (which basically I really like) is that you DO need to take intermittent holds.  It's easy to cut too much before you know it and get ahead of your body's ability to adapt to the cuts you've made and then you crash and OUCH.  And it can take a while to get to feeling good again because all those cuts you've made continue to catch up with you for a while.

 

I've been tapering for over two years now (five meds) and as time goes along I become more and more convinced that the holds are the key. 

 

So just keep in mind that cuts have a lag time and the second you feel any increase in symptoms, stop cutting for a while until you feel better.  That's been the hardest thing for me.

This is the very thing I want to hear about.

 

I fear the lag time, where you can take a while to stabilise.

 

Isn't this the reason why you should choose small cuts in the first place?

Also, with daily cuts, I didn't think there was a need to hold, I thought, on arrival of symptoms, you just made your cuts smaller.

 

thanks

Yes, I think the smaller cuts make it easier to adjust if you have a lag time/catch-up effect.

I don't think it's anything to fear, as long as you don't keep pushing your taper once you have symptoms.

You can try making your cuts smaller.  I personally find that holding altogether is more effective.  When withdrawal symptoms are present, cutting more doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't work for me.  After much experimentation I have found that for me, holding completely for as long as it takes (so far anywhere from a week to six weeks) is what works best.

The nicest thing about these holds is that I get to feeling pretty good, which is a much needed break in the tapering and withdrawal process.  It gives me a chance to catch up with my life a bit and get some things done.

For me, the holds have turned out to be as important as the size of cuts, as far as having a successful taper. They're a lot harder than they sound, though.  It's so hard to have that patience and discipline, especially when I'm already symptomatic and feeling kind of panicky and obsessive.  And you really do have to surrender to allowing the taper to take as long as your body needs, which can be a lot longer than you want.

This is just how I approach it.

I'm very pleased with how microtapering has worked for me.  I'm tapering five meds--well four now, I just finished one of them--which is supposed to be impossible.  Not only has it been possible but I'm successfully working full time at a job that can be kind of stressful, and having a bit of a social life as well.  I feel better than I have in 20 years.  I'm the only middle-aged person I know whose memory is actually improving and whose hair is actually getting thicker and growing IN.  So for me it's working.  But obviously my situation is unusual.

I'm very pleased with how microtapering has worked for me.  I'm tapering five meds--

 

Are you tapering all 4 meds at the same time? 

Here has been my experience so far with water titration, I started tapering from 1.5mg of klonopion March 1 ,2012 I was doing great cutting 1-2 ml a day, I was loving ever bit of the taper, then about a month ago when I got to taking out around 40ml I started getting symptomatic, but I thought this was normal so I continued to make cuts struggling to where I am as of today at taking out 53ml, now I take .75mg in the morning dry then in the evening I take 175ml of water and put another .75mg in it and that is where I have been withdrawing from my 53 ml, and I got to tell you I think the lag time thing has hit me really hard, I have felt terrible for the past month. And I dont seem to be getting any better and I have been holding this whole time, I am up in the air as to what to do, and I am looking for advice...

Bottom line I think I micro tapered to quick and it caught up to me...

Jason

Jason,

I held at 1.75 mg. of Klonopin for 15 months (after a failed detox that ultimately caused kindling when I reinstated).  I can definitely relate to what you're going through.  I hope you will be able to hold at your current level.  If, however, you need to do a dose correction, I totally understand (as I have had to do it before myself).

Sincerely,

fg

The only problem I have run into with micro tapering (which basically I really like) is that you DO need to take intermittent holds.  It's easy to cut too much before you know it and get ahead of your body's ability to adapt to the cuts you've made and then you crash and OUCH.  And it can take a while to get to feeling good again because all those cuts you've made continue to catch up with you for a while.

 

I've been tapering for over two years now (five meds) and as time goes along I become more and more convinced that the holds are the key. 

 

So just keep in mind that cuts have a lag time and the second you feel any increase in symptoms, stop cutting for a while until you feel better.  That's been the hardest thing for me.

This is the very thing I want to hear about.

 

I fear the lag time, where you can take a while to stabilise.

 

Isn't this the reason why you should choose small cuts in the first place?

Also, with daily cuts, I didn't think there was a need to hold, I thought, on arrival of symptoms, you just made your cuts smaller.

 

thanks

 

Yes, I think the smaller cuts make it easier to adjust if you have a lag time/catch-up effect.

 

I don't think it's anything to fear, as long as you don't keep pushing your taper once you have symptoms.

 

You can try making your cuts smaller.  I personally find that holding altogether is more effective.  When withdrawal symptoms are present, cutting more doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't work for me.  After much experimentation I have found that for me, holding completely for as long as it takes (so far anywhere from a week to six weeks) is what works best.

 

The nicest thing about these holds is that I get to feeling pretty good, which is a much needed break in the tapering and withdrawal process.  It gives me a chance to catch up with my life a bit and get some things done.

 

For me, the holds have turned out to be as important as the size of cuts, as far as having a successful taper. They're a lot harder than they sound, though.  It's so hard to have that patience and discipline, especially when I'm already symptomatic and feeling kind of panicky and obsessive.  And you really do have to surrender to allowing the taper to take as long as your body needs, which can be a lot longer than you want.

 

This is just how I approach it.

 

I'm very pleased with how microtapering has worked for me.  I'm tapering five meds--well four now, I just finished one of them--which is supposed to be impossible.  Not only has it been possible but I'm successfully working full time at a job that can be kind of stressful, and having a bit of a social life as well.  I feel better than I have in 20 years.  I'm the only middle-aged person I know whose memory is actually improving and whose hair is actually getting thicker and growing IN.  So for me it's working.  But obviously my situation is unusual.

Thanks for sharing.

I wonder why some people get time lags with symptoms and others dont?

I think you are really brave. I am on two other meds, but darent taper them until off the valium.

Here has been my experience so far with water titration, I started tapering from 1.5mg of klonopion March 1 ,2012 I was doing great cutting 1-2 ml a day, I was loving ever bit of the taper, then about a month ago when I got to taking out around 40ml I started getting symptomatic, but I thought this was normal so I continued to make cuts struggling to where I am as of today at taking out 53ml, now I take .75mg in the morning dry then in the evening I take 175ml of water and put another .75mg in it and that is where I have been withdrawing from my 53 ml, and I got to tell you I think the lag time thing has hit me really hard, I have felt terrible for the past month. And I dont seem to be getting any better and I have been holding this whole time, I am up in the air as to what to do, and I am looking for advice...

 

Bottom line I think I micro tapered to quick and it caught up to me...

Jason

I'm not a micro-tapering expert, but I would say to hold while you are symptomatic and then return to microtapering with cuts you can tolerate, and the moment you feel any symptoms then is the time to reduce the size of your cuts, or hold a bit and then go onto smaller cuts.

Someone who is more expert at micro tapering will know more though.

Yes journey, you are correct I have been holding for around 3 weeks to a month but so far I have yet to stabilize, I think I just went to fast, I am trying to hold here it is super hard but I want to beat this thing, and I am going to do all I can do not to updose, My symptoms have been as follows terrible dizzyness, lots of shaking headachs, and head pressure, sever fatigue, oh and my temper has been real bad with my family, short fuse, I always tell myself I am healthy as a ox but after feeling like this some days I feel like what disease do I have? I have had every test in the world done on me I belive and everything is so good but how can I feel so bad all the time, then I remind myself it is Klonopion withdraw, I just wounder when I will see the light at the end of my tunnle, I hjave been battling this since I was 21 years old now I am 36, I am ready to be done with tis stuff and move on!!~!

Jason

Hang in there, Jason.  You can make it!

fg

Yes journey, you are correct I have been holding for around 3 weeks to a month but so far I have yet to stabilize, I think I just went to fast, I am trying to hold here it is super hard but I want to beat this thing, and I am going to do all I can do not to updose, My symptoms have been as follows terrible dizzyness, lots of shaking headachs, and head pressure, sever fatigue, oh and my temper has been real bad with my family, short fuse, I always tell myself I am healthy as a ox but after feeling like this some days I feel like what disease do I have? I have had every test in the world done on me I belive and everything is so good but how can I feel so bad all the time, then I remind myself it is Klonopion withdraw, I just wounder when I will see the light at the end of my tunnle, I hjave been battling this since I was 21 years old now I am 36, I am ready to be done with tis stuff and move on!!~!

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

Sorry to hear you have not yet stabilised after holding a month and that you are having horrible symptoms.

How many times a day are you dosing? As you are on klonopin, if you are not  already doing this, I would recommend , you split your daily dose into four equal parts and take every 6 hours.

This will stop interdose withdrawals (symptoms you may get just before your next dose is due)

I use Battle Against Tranquilisers for support, they are also known as BAT. They operate in the UK and this is their website. www.bataid.org.

They advise holding until you stabilise. They, like me, do not recognize tolerance withdrawal. To me, once you are on a taper, whatever dose you are on, you are already tolerant to, as you have been previously tolerant of higher doses, so, to me, logic states that you will also be tolerant to the lower doses.

It's easy to feel there is something wrong with us in benzo withdrawal.

Another thing - Have you thought of graduallly crossing over to valium and tapering from your klonopin dose equivalent in valium?

Valium has a much longer half life and a smoother taper.

You can make smaller dose reductions easer in valium as 1mg klon = 20mg valium.

I hope that helps.

Hi everyone!

  Microtapering can mean different things to different people. The method I am using as indicated in my signature line is tapering 1/10th of a ml per day. Yes, there is no scientific evidence that any taper method is the best one. But so far, I have been functioning pretty well. A lot of fatigue during the day, but I understand why. Anyone who is on a benzo for years stops producing Melatonin and long term benzo users do not get REM sleep. The understanding for why I feel the way I do, motivates me to keep tapering.

Jason you mentioned that you are dry cut tapering and liquid tapering also. You are sending your body mixed signals about dosages. Dry cut tapering is so inaccurate. I would also suggest that you liquid taper the whole dose of klonopin and continue dosing twice daily as has already been suggested. Since klonopin has a shorter half life than valium I know of several people who are dosing four times daily, if they are on klonopin. It can be so easy to do. I have mentioned in earlier posts that I am working with people on a site called benzofreedom. The method of microtapering is totally different than what people are doing here. You can check out the site at [nobbc]www.benzofreedom.com.[/nobbc] Some people have headed over there and reported back that it just looks like a simple microtaper. But, the administrator gives individual guidelines on how to do this kind of taper.

I know it may not be for everyone, but if you are suffering, there maybe a way to reduce it!

It is so hard to make decisions about benzo withdrawal when so much of what happens is anecdotal. One plan may work for one person, but for another that plan may be way off!

I hope you can find some relief soon. Just my opinion, but I think mixing the dry cut taper with a titration is messing up your body!

edit: deactivate commercial link

Microtapering can mean different things to different people. The method I am using as indicated in my signature line is tapering 1/10th of a ml per day. ......I have mentioned in earlier posts that I am working with people on a site called benzofreedom. The method of microtapering is totally different than what people are doing here. You can check out the site at www.benzofreedom.com. Some people have headed over there and reported back that it just looks like a simple microtaper. But, the administrator gives individual guidelines on how to do this kind of taper.

I took at look at that web site but couldn't find any real details of what their approach consists of.

I think the site you mention deliberately tries to keep things a little bit secret in order that no one else copies their method and charges money for it. However I came another site which appears (to my untutored eye) to have done just that.

From what I can glean, it seems they make up a dilute solution of diazepam and then reduce the amount of diazepam by extracting the unwanted amount via a small syringe. Each day a tiny amount more is discarded via the syringe. As many pre-measured doses as required (2, 3 or 4) are prepared for each day. It seems like a lot of work but may be worth it.

I'm not sure how they determine the correct quantity of each day's taper to make sure the rate of reduction is correct for an individual, nor how they compensate if the person reaches a bad patch and can't continue with their original rate of reduction.

-Zoner

Since everyone who comes onto that site is pretty sick from reducing too quickly, the administrator gives individual advice about how to start the microtaper. You do not have to give money to join.  I have abandoned the Ashton method, because I found it too harsh! Making cuts and holding,not knowing what symptoms will hit you when, was too anxiety provoking for me. I just couldn't keep up with percentage cuts or even doing titration by 1ml per day. It caught up with me. Putting the pills in water I found didn't work for me either, as the drug just settled to the bottom right after shaking it, so I wasn't getting an even accurate dose each time I  tapered. This method I am doing now involves using whole fat milk. Klonopin binds to the fat globules in the milk and most of it does not settle to the bottom of the jar after shaking.

It is not complicated. You join, talk to the administrator and if interested she will give guidance for your particular situation. But there are some major differences with this particular method. You do not use a graduated cylinder, mortar and pestle or measuring cup. You simply put your dose in the milk using a 10ml oral syringe to measure and let it sit for an hour in the fridge. After taking out what you are not going to use with a 1ml or 10ml syringe, you either drink that one dose, or divide it into 2, 3 or 4 divided doses in other baby jars for the rest of your day.

There are multiple posts you can look at on this site without having to talk to anyone. There is even a video where one person shows how to use this method. All for free!

This is just me, and no one else. I am not trying to sell this site to anyone. I am saying that so far it is working for me. If I get to a point that I cannot tolerate it, I will have to look at something else. But Ashton's taper method is too aggressive for me and she does not give enough detailed information for tapers. I find her guidelines too general.

Again, just my opinion. I was throwing out some other resources to people, so they have more information. The more resources for people going through benzo withdrawal, the better armed that person will be to make an informed decision about how best to taper.

There are many sites out there attempting to help people get off these drugs. Some very conservative and others more aggressive. Hey, I looked into Point of Return and thought that they were ripping people off, by offering supplements to help a person get off the benzo. Take a look at their site. What are you supposed to do, if you can't afford their program? There are many people though that have been successful in getting of the benzo using their program.

I even have the book for Point of Return, because I thought it would work for me. The big thing about this program is that there are strict guidelines about when to take the supplements and you have to eliminate so many things from your diet. They recommend a taper rate of 5% to get off the benzos. That rate would have killed me!

Any person going through this, should have access to all the information that is out there to make the best decision for themselves. Maybe someone will read this post and take a look at Point of Return and decide to try it. Maybe it will work for them. If it does, I would be super happy for them.