Disappointed!

Hello all,

 

When I was asked if I would consider creating a board specifically to help those that have been through benzodiazepine detox or rapid withdrawal (and for those considering detox) to discuss the issues, I did not expect that some members would use this space to ram their personal experience down the throats of others. Worse, then to be so bloody-minded as to not respect the member's decision to go to a detox facility after he is better informed of the risks, and after he explained his circumstances and why this might be a better option for him. His reasons for attending the detox centre are valid. He, nor anyone here, can know for sure what would be the best option for him ahead of time.

 

Most of us here fully understand the risks of attending a detox withdrawal for benzodiazepine withdrawal after extended use. I posted a sticky to this board about the risks, and even included a note (with a link to the sticky) in the board description. Open discussion does not equate to the spreading of personal dogma! Respect for your fellow members and their right to determine their own informed health choices is a requirement of membership of this forum. I have witnessed too much narrow-mindedness in the recent thread (most of you know to which thread I refer). If, after discussion of the issues, you cannot accept what another member decides to do regarding their own healthcare, in a medically safe environment, then keep your mouth shut. It is unacceptable for members to attempt to force their own views (often formed through their own narrow experience) onto another member. I have my own experiences too, I have read the work of Ashton and others, and through running this forum, have observed the experiences of hundreds, if not thousands of members. So, it could be argued that my vicarious experience is very wide, but I still would not pretend to know how an individual member will react to a given withdrawal regimen (even a regimen that would be ill-advised for most). How people react to benzodiazepine withdrawal after extended use is highly varied. I think nearly everyone here understands this, even those who have been least respectful of the other member's right to form his own opinion and make his own decisions. If you understand this, you should be capable of understanding that you cannot know the outcome - far from it. You have your own opinions, but that is as far as it goes.

 

I understand (more than just about anyone here) that many members have experienced dreadful withdrawal problems. I understand your fears, and your gut instinct to wish to prevent others from going through the same thing as you. However, you must understand that 'mutual respect' requires that you accept the decisions of others in determining their own healthcare needs. I think most members would expect doctors to respect the informed decisions of their patients. At the very least, we should expect the same level of respect from fellow Buddies, don't you think!?

 

I am, again, posting the following links in the hope that they will better explain why the experiences of our members cannot form the basis of general conclusions about what to expect with any particular type of withdrawal regimen.

 

 

Sampling Bias

 

And:

 

Self-selection Bias

 

The subject of our members belonging to a 'self-selecting group' was covered in this thread:

 

Online Support....Can it make things worse?

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Skyy

Colin...I certainly hope that you will not be too "disappointed".  This website has become so important to me for research on what to expect as my husband makes his own decisions about how to taper off lorazepam and ambien.  There is so much valuable information here from so many aspects we would never have considered or understood if left to our own devices for this problem.  I have only been here a short while, but I can see that this site provides an enourmous wealth of information for people in our situation.  And I'm so glad that you and your staff are vigilent about monitoring what goes on here so that this does not become another "anti" social media site full of negativity and judgement.  I don't know where I would turn to if I didn't have this source of information, inspiration and support.  Thanks for caring so much!  Hope you know it matters to me and I'm sure many others.

Colin... this part of the forum is no different than the rest of your site. Opinions and advice get "Rammed" as you call it down peoples throats all the time. I'm sure your aware of this. Aren't you? So don't make this out to be an isolated incident. You have members here that get away with giving out medical and tapering advise daily. They also recommend using certain "helper drugs" to ease peoples symptoms. It happens all over this board all the time. And to top it off it screws people up. I would focus on those issues instead of a few passionate members expressing their views on a detox center of which you have never been through before. Maybe if you had you would have the same conviction as us. Then again maybe not? I'm going to speak my mind regardless. This topic should have transparency. The truth shouldn't be swept under the rug out of lack of concern if it scares someone or not. It is what it is. Its not all rainbows and butterflies.

 

Rock

Colin... this part of the forum is no different than the rest of your site. Opinions and advise get "Rammed" as you call it down peoples throats all the time. I'm sure your aware of this. Aren't you? So don't make this out to be an isolated incident. You have members here that get away with giving out medical and tapering advise daily. They also recommend using certain "helper drugs" to ease peoples symptoms. It happens all over this board all the time. And to top it off it screws people up. I would focus on those issues instead of a few passionate members expressing their views on a detox center of which you have never been through before. Maybe if you had you would have the same conviction as us. Then again maybe not? I'm going to speak my mind regardless. This topic should have transparency. The truth shouldn't be swept under the rug out of lack of concern if it scares someone or not. It is what it is. Its not all butterflies and rainbows.

 

Rock

Colin... this part of the forum is no different than the rest of your site. Opinions and advise get "Rammed" as you call it down peoples throats all the time. I'm sure your aware of this. Aren't you? So don't make this out to be an isolated incident. You have members here that get away with giving out medical and tapering advise daily. They also recommend using certain "helper drugs" to ease peoples symptoms. It happens all over this board all the time. And to top it off it screws people up. I would focus on those issues instead of a few passionate members expressing their views on a detox center of which you have never been through before. Maybe if you had you would have the same conviction as us. Then again maybe not? I'm going to speak my mind regardless. This topic should have transparency. The truth shouldn't be swept under the rug out of lack of concern if it scares someone or not. It is what it is. Its not all butterflies and rainbows.

 

Rock

 

I don't get why you posted something about how the negativity from this site and others painting a worst case scenario on this site isn't healthy then you do it yourself to the point where you are bashing members.  Can't you make up your mind or do you just need an axe to grind?  That's my opinion!

After carefully following that thread, I kept almost replying. I have recently been pretty emotional and have thus not been participating vocally very much beyond keeping up my progress log. But I'm still reading. And I really respect what you have said here because I felt as if it were nearly imperative to say something considering how different peoples' tapers are. In my own experience, it most certainly has been difficult and has taken some months to reduce -- although this is more quick than many other peoples' tapers. At this point, two months after starting to taper, and having now cut back from long-term, high-dose use, I have no physical symptoms like I initially did. I had such profoundly burning skin at times, and also, a feeling of shivers and chills as well as sweating, goosebumps, all sorts of obvious central nervous system stuff. The one time I c/t'd, I had a grand mal seizure about 48 hours later.

 

But I have also known several people who have withdrawn much more easily than I have. One is my grandmother, who was on long-term benzos for a long time. She did not notice a withdrawal, she says, although she can't remember well how she quit (it was the 70's or 80's). Another were both people I knew well, both were abusing benzos. One reached a point of intravenous use with a very, very high dose for a short term. He was put into a medical facility and did not have a withdrawal. I know because I was there with him, and then after that, he lived at my house for well over a year so that I could help him with his profound depression, which pushed the use in the first place. The third person I knew also well and still do. He binged very, very heavily on several types of benzos along with opiates for a few months. He went into a three week detox program. He did fine and came out fine, and we talk all the time, and he's not mentioned ever having problems. In fact, when I started my taper, I asked him about it briefly but he couldn't relate beyond the initial acute withdrawal which, for him, involved hallucinations and stuff. I didn't ask him if they gave him anything else. I know the first friend was not, in fact, given anything other than a few antidepressants and some kind of antipsychotic, and this was some time back, so I can't even quite remember this other than his concern about discontinuing these later.

 

Just weighing in with four different stories, all very different. I feel like everyone's stories are so different too. I know when I began my taper, people said I was going too fast on this board. I was in my own body, however, and my own mind, and was feeling my own symptoms. I updosed when it got too intense. It's no easy ride still. But I would say that I don't even look to be a candidate for protracted withdrawal so far, and that my symptoms are much lighter other than the very odd run of days here and there than many others here; I haven't even had a poor night of sleep (though I did have visual hallucinations early on and other nasty stuff). However, without the moral support, I worry that I would stop tapering so I keep reading. Also, I'm deeply concerned that I will not recover from the original panic disorder which I started out with. Part of this taper is definitely an experiment to see if I can get over that without medication so that I can be more mobile and in control of myself. I hope that does happen.

 

I'm not going to respond further though because I am just too emotional lately. It's like an extreme anger that won't go away, and it's an annoying withdrawal symptom right now, and my worst by far. I'm sure it's withdrawal because it's so different than my normal personality. But I did want to respond because I've been reading this all. While I am partially afraid to go against the grain, I'm also more afraid to not simply share my own experiences with two people who I knew well who detoxed in different ways than a taper, neither of whom are on this site because they didn't have a hard time of it (one is now deceased, unfortunately, although completely unrelated situation). However, I know I'm too volatile to actually converse about this, so I'm just sharing.

 

I wish that guy the best of luck and all the support in the world.

mbvv.. The only people I call out on this site are people who have a 'god complex" and give out dangerous information to others. Other than that I keep to myself for the most part. As far as detox centers go. I will always speak my mind about them regardless of what people think is right or wrong. Sorry. Cant hold back on that one. There are alot more serious things that happen around here other than this little discussion that got brought up.

 

Rock

Sorry dude but I can read.  Out of all the posts yours are the most arrogant.

You must find interest in them if you read them. Maybe you should refrain from my words so it doesn't disrupt your withdrawl? I knew a few people like yourself would flock to Colins rescue. Hes a big boy. He can speak for himself. Ive said what Ive had to say. Happy healing.

You must find interest in them if you read them. Maybe you should refrain from my words so it doesn't disrupt your withdrawl? I knew a few people like yourself would flock to Colins rescue. Hes a big boy. He can speak for himself. Ive said what Ive had to say. Happy healing.

 

"It's not all rainbows and butterflies".  Like we don't know.  No it's babies wearing headphones and sunglasses dude!  Happy healing to you as well.

You must find interest in them if you read them. Maybe you should refrain from my words so it doesn't disrupt your withdrawl? I knew a few people like yourself would flock to Colins rescue. Hes a big boy. He can speak for himself. Ive said what Ive had to say. Happy healing.

 

"It's not all rainbows and butterflies".  Like we don't know.  No it's babies wearing headphones and sunglasses dude!  Happy healing to you as well.

This is not looking good... I am refraining.. It looks kinda like disrespect .And its quiet Rude.. Im sure it will be taken care of ..

 

~Jenny

That's it Skyy. I'm telling on you. I'm hitting the report your comment to the mod button. You are one rude little girl. I'm so telling on you for sure. LOL I demand immediate action. Like NOW!!! BAhhahaa!!

Colin... this part of the forum is no different than the rest of your site. Opinions and advise get "Rammed" as you call it down peoples throats all the time. I'm sure your aware of this. Aren't you? So don't make this out to be an isolated incident. You have members here that get away with giving out medical and tapering advise daily. They also recommend using certain "helper drugs" to ease peoples symptoms. It happens all over this board all the time. And to top it off it screws people up. I would focus on those issues instead of a few passionate members expressing their views on a detox center of which you have never been through before. Maybe if you had you would have the same conviction as us. Then again maybe not? I'm going to speak my mind regardless. This topic should have transparency. The truth shouldn't be swept under the rug out of lack of concern if it scares someone or not. It is what it is. Its not all rainbows and butterflies.

 

Rock

 

I certainly out of anyone in this thread shouldn't be involved, but I just can't take this anymore. I directedly responded to your replies and answers, and absorbed all the information, and posted that I had, why reiterate the same point OVER AND OVER in such a negative manner when I have already accepted your opinion, and taken on board these facts.

 

The thread in question was never "all rainbows and butterflies", in fact about 60-70& of users were NOT advocating me doing what I have chose to do. Then one or two people come on and give support, and you sarcastically comment back to them saying that their experiences are invalid, simply because it is NOT how things happened for you, or due to statistical evidence (which as said previously I have taken on board) but this does not make their personal experiences any less important for me to read.

 

Though I have not been through BZD w/d's yet so no, I don't know how excruciating it will be, but many of these posters DID Rapid Taper, or C/T, in or not in detox centers.

 

I have witnessed too much narrow-mindedness in the recent thread (most of you know to which thread I refer). If, after discussion of the issues, you cannot accept what another member decides to do regarding their own healthcare, in a medically safe environment, then keep your mouth shut. It is unacceptable for members to attempt to force their own views (often formed through their own narrow experience) onto another member. I have my own experiences too, I have read the work of Ashton and others, and through running this forum, have observed the experiences of hundreds, if not thousands of members. So, it could be argued that my vicarious experience is very wide, but I still would not pretend to know how an individual member will react to a given withdrawal regimen (even a regimen that would be ill-advised for most). How people react to benzodiazepine withdrawal after extended use is highly varied. I think nearly everyone here understands this, even those who have been least respectful of the other member's right to form his own opinion and make his own decisions. If you understand this, you should be capable of understanding that you cannot know the outcome - far from it. You have your own opinions, but that is as far as it goes.

 

Which is simply confirming what I am saying, and slandering the Mods and Admins, just because they try and cause a sense of peace and harmony in a thread, is pretty damn arrogant in my personal opinion.

 

Considering how new a member I am, and the fact that I already understand this, and you are just choosing to disregard it, definately says something.

 

I'm not going to reply to anything you post back or this thread as I will just keep using my own, and report my post if you so choose. I probably shouldn't have posted this at all, but think it is down right unfair that you can treat other BB members who may be suffering themselves still like that (and I'm talking about replies to other members, not myself).

 

KD

This is so upsetting.This kind of Disrespect ..Im not posting anymore here .People are being very mean and Im not down with it.I have never been mean to anyone for there beliefs.I have always respected that. But calling people arrogant and other kinds of Digs just isnt what this site was based on.

BTW Mbvv..KRock is no Troll hes a man who has faced the Most extreme w/d and has a Truth about what he says. You dont know him nor should you Insult him ...Its just not how people treat each other here. I hope it ends.

~Jenny

You must find interest in them if you read them. Maybe you should refrain from my words so it doesn't disrupt your withdrawl? I knew a few people like yourself would flock to Colins rescue. Hes a big boy. He can speak for himself. Ive said what Ive had to say. Happy healing.

 

Truthfully I don't finish reading your posts most of the time.  I'm sure Colin doesn't need rescuing.  Maybe you have a God complex for thinking your words are so powerful that he would need rescuing.  I just don't like your posts and the way you attack others.  You come off as a troll.  Honestly your words aren't disrupting my withdrawal in the least.  I simply don't get where your coming from when you start a thread and then vehemently contradict it by being severely insensitive and condescending.  Kinda like the advice you so despise but hand out so freely i.e. telling me what I should refrain from.

wow guys this is getting way out of control.

 

Im getting really embarrassed by this behaviour if you were my kids Id be standing you all in the naughty corner. 

 

KD guess what Im having a good day today.  Healing does happen.  Went and brought some new clothes as well and had lunch out and drove the car wooooooo. 

 

I was out amongst the normals and I felt well almost normal.  However one set back after I paid for the groceries I did leave them on the counter until the girl reminded me but other than that it went well.

 

Lizzy

Does anybody here know for sure how withdrawal is going to go for other people?  What if KD did a slow taper and couldn't stabilize for the entire year and a half?  What if he recovers in 3 months or is part of the 50 to 70 percent that suffer no withdrawal symptoms at all?  Almost everyone on this forum has had a difficult withdrawal but we are not representative of benzo withdrawal in general. 

 

Krock, starting a thread on how online support can make things worse, while you are online and on a support site is about the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of.  Where would you be if you didn't have chat when you were at your worst?  Where would you be if you didn't meet these people that held your hand through it?  Who would take withdrawal seriously except for those who have gone through it if we didn't have Heather Ashton?  You're biting the hand that fed you for many months.  Enough already.

 

 

Christopher... Geez you posted the following on the thread of mine your calling ridiculous. My how your feelings have changed. I will post your words below in regard to the thread "Online support .. can it make things worse?" You stated the following..

 

I completely agree.  Many people write on here when they are at their worst.  When you stop anti anxiety medication, you get rebound anxiety.  This rebound anxiety can manifest itself into symptoms of many different anxiety disorders.  Hypochondria, agoraphobia, OCD, social anxiety, generalized anxiety, and specific phobias.  The only thing that makes these situations worse is reinforcement.  By constantly checking the support section, you not only reinforce your own anxiety symptoms but you will start to develop what's called anticipatory anxiety.  You begin to anticipate the onset of symptoms that may never materialize in your specific set of circumstances.  Thereby, you will begin to expect them or even believe that you have them as a result. 

 

There are many people who are experiencing withdrawal on their own.  They have little or no support around them.  This is obviously why people join these boards.  The problem is that the negativity far outweighs the positivity in the stories you read.  This leads to a constantly perpetuating circle of negative reinforcement.  This is the exact reason why those who have successfully overcome benzo withdrawal instruct us to stay active and focus on only positive situations.  This is easier said then done in many circumstances when people are not able to be as active as they would like.  However, the point is still valid.  You have to believe you will get better in order to do so.

 

To reiterate Krock's point, no two withdrawals are the same.  Neither are the methods in getting off these medications.  Not everyone will have success in the Ashton/Valium method.  She herself states that this may not be the best way to withdrawal from benzos.  It worked for many of her patients in her clinic in Oldham.  However, we have access to compounding pharmacies and liquid versions of all the benzos today.  Valium has the ability to cause severe depression.  Withdrawal itself is known to cause its own levels of depression.  Because of this potentially negative combination, the type of medication you taper from is far more important of a decision then the speed in my opinion.

 

The importance of this forum is significant but so are the responsibilities of the members using it.  Since you do not know the exact circumstances of the people you are advising, it's best to limit that advice to moral support and not prescriptive or suggestive interference. 

 

Christopher 

 

 

 

 

 

I stand behind every word I've ever posted on this site.  I can say that with confidence. 

 

That the forum can be sharply negative at times is something nobody can deny.  But neither can they deny that the support you get from others going through the same thing is invaluable.  Positives and negatives.  Which are you contributing to?

From April 4th. This was thoughtful advice (until the very end).

 

Sometimes the best post is no post at all. There are hundreds of topic lines on this site in which my opinion wouldn't benefit the poster at all. It would just confuse their situation even more. I tend to disagree with alot of what people post to others and feel it can mislead them and guide them down the wrong path. ie.. meds, tapers, ect. So I tend to keep quite for the most part. Screw getting in some heated debate. I mean many of times I just want to post to people that they are crazy if their reading into anything that these people are saying to them about certain subjects. Like I want to throw some cold water on them or something and say "Wake the HELL UP!!" They stuff your reading is bad for you". Many of the members here are not thinking rational and can barely take care of themselves. Yet their giving advise to others. So when I say sometimes the best post is No post at all. What I'm really saying is that I'm just refraining myself from calling people out on all the BS their telling other members. It would be a full time job to keep up with. Time and energy I don't have.

 

Rock

Offline Colin

 

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Disappointed!

« on: Today at 12:55:36 PM »

 

    Quote

 

Hello all,

 

When I was asked if I would consider creating a board specifically to help those that have been through benzodiazepine detox or rapid withdrawal (and for those considering detox) to discuss the issues, I did not expect that some members would use this space to ram their personal experience down the throats of others. Worse, then to be so bloody-minded as to not respect the member's decision to go to a detox facility after he is better informed of the risks, and after he explained his circumstances and why this might be a better option for him. His reasons for attending the detox centre are valid. He, nor anyone here, can know for sure what would be the best option for him ahead of time.

 

Most of us here fully understand the risks of attending a detox withdrawal for benzodiazepine withdrawal after extended use. I posted a sticky to this board about the risks, and even included a note (with a link to the sticky) in the board description. Open discussion does not equate to the spreading of personal dogma! Respect for your fellow members and their right to determine their own informed health choices is a requirement of membership of this forum. I have witnessed too much narrow-mindedness in the recent thread (most of you know to which thread I refer). If, after discussion of the issues, you cannot accept what another member decides to do regarding their own healthcare, in a medically safe environment, then keep your mouth shut. It is unacceptable for members to attempt to force their own views (often formed through their own narrow experience) onto another member. I have my own experiences too, I have read the work of Ashton and others, and through running this forum, have observed the experiences of hundreds, if not thousands of members. So, it could be argued that my vicarious experience is very wide, but I still would not pretend to know how an individual member will react to a given withdrawal regimen (even a regimen that would be ill-advised for most). How people react to benzodiazepine withdrawal after extended use is highly varied. I think nearly everyone here understands this, even those who have been least respectful of the other member's right to form his own opinion and make his own decisions. If you understand this, you should be capable of understanding that you cannot know the outcome - far from it. You have your own opinions, but that is as far as it goes.

 

I understand (more than just about anyone here) that many members have experienced dreadful withdrawal problems. I understand your fears, and your gut instinct to wish to prevent others from going through the same thing as you. However, you must understand that 'mutual respect' requires that you accept the decisions of others in determining their own healthcare needs. I think most members would expect doctors to respect the informed decisions of their patients. At the very least, we should expect the same level of respect from fellow Buddies, don't you think!?

 

I am, again, posting the following links in the hope that they will better explain why the experiences of our members cannot form the basis of general conclusions about what to expect with any particular type of withdrawal regimen.

 

Quote from: Colin on Today at 02:38:09 AM

 

 

    Sampling Bias

 

    And:

 

    Self-selection Bias

 

    The subject of our members belonging to a 'self-selecting group' was covered in this thread:

 

    Online Support....Can it make things worse?

 

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4.5mg of Clonazepam for 4 years + 6 month direct taper. Benzo free since 31st Jan 2003.

 

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Hi Colin,

 

Just want to say 'thank you'. I am very pleased you stepped in here with some intelligent advice. And that you are not afraid to pull some people into line. You are a very reasonable man and I have great respect for your opinion.

 

Xana

 

(Just thought I'd bump this up in case someone wanders into the middle of this thread.)

Hey Colin ... this forum saves lives and we cannot ever know just how many or when it actually happens.  That thread may not have had the desired effect on the OP but we cannot pretend to know whether it saved someone else and perhaps not in the way it was intended.  Our perspectives are very limited.  Perhaps there was a reason for so much passion to arise and I believe we can trust that all is well.

Colin...I certainly hope that you will not be too "disappointed".  This website has become so important to me for research on what to expect as my husband makes his own decisions about how to taper off lorazepam and ambien.  There is so much valuable information here from so many aspects we would never have considered or understood if left to our own devices for this problem.  I have only been here a short while, but I can see that this site provides an enourmous wealth of information for people in our situation.  And I'm so glad that you and your staff are vigilent about monitoring what goes on here so that this does not become another "anti" social media site full of negativity and judgement.  I don't know where I would turn to if I didn't have this source of information, inspiration and support.  Thanks for caring so much!  Hope you know it matters to me and I'm sure many others.

 

Hi Alice,

 

If you mean, might we close - no, no way! Frankly, this is a minor problem - nothing to worry about.

 

I'm glad that you and your husband find BB useful in his withdrawal. Good luck.

Colin... this part of the forum is no different than the rest of your site. Opinions and advise get "Rammed" as you call it down peoples throats all the time. I'm sure your aware of this. Aren't you?  So don't make this out to be an isolated incident. You have members here that get away with giving out medical and tapering advise daily.

 

So, let me see if I have this right. Your argument is that others do wrong; they 'ram' advise down the throats of other members. You think it is wrong of then to do this, but since they do it, so will you. That's a pretty weak argument.

 

I'd have to disagree that members generally 'ram' advice down the throats of others. If they did, I'm sure we'd receive similar complaints to the very many we have received about your posts over the past days. If you had concerns about other member's behaviour in this regard, you certainly did not inform us about it.

 

They also recommend using certain "helper drugs" to ease peoples symptoms. It happens all over this board all the time. And to top it off it screws people up. I would focus on those issues instead of a few passionate members expressing their views on a detox center of which you have never been through before.

 

Is your argument that because you quit benzos via a detox facility, your experience will, necessarily, translate to what everyone else would experience at detox facility? Even if they withdrawing over a month, and are going there because of their admitted drug abuse problems? You should know, that for some people - many of those that abuse benzodiazepines - a detox facility is the best option for them. Absolutely, I will discuss with them the option of gradual withdrawal, and make them aware of the high number of people that experience very difficult protracted withdrawal symptoms afterwards, but with this knowledge, if they still decide that detox is best for them and their situation, I will wish the best of luck and support them in their decision. As I said before, if you or other members cannot do this, it would be better to just shut up.

 

Maybe if you had you would have the same conviction as us. Then again maybe not? I'm going to speak my mind regardless. This topic should have transparency. The truth shouldn't be swept under the rug out of lack of concern if it scares someone or not. It is what it is. Its not all rainbows and butterflies.

 

You really need to get a grip of the concept of a self-selecting group. Your and a few other member's experience does not translate to the experience of all those that attend detox to quit benzos. In most situations, I, and virtually all members here, are against attending detox for benzodiazepine withdrawal, but KD has made his decision, and instead of setting him up for failure, you should have the good grace to wish him luck. The chances are, he will be OK, even if he might experience a few rough months. It seems that there is ongoing support from the detox clinic for at least a further two months after his one month withdrawal. No, probably far from ideal, but it is better than most of the detox regimens we hear about.

I'm not going to respond further though because I am just too emotional lately.

 

Thank you, BOL. I hope you experience some relief soon.

 

Colin.