Xanax rapid detox (ct) concerns

Well, I did it again...

Was looking online for some info on specific symptom relief info, and found myself reading a thread on another forum with a post talking about 'permanent withdrawal' due to cold turkey discontinuation from a benzo. I usually don't get hung up on worst case scenario type stuff, but this one really struck a chord with me. I've been pretty bummed out ever since. The prospect of permanent withdrawal symptoms is frightening to say the least.

Anyone have a positive response to combat this? It would be much appreciated.

Also, what is more relevant to the withdrawal timeline; mg or duration on the drug? I know it's impossible to estimate recovery time, but of the two factors, is one more telling?

Thank you for reading.

This is what I don't want to hear even though I didn't do a  c/t. I was brought down very quickly at the beginning (as you can see from my signature).

Was this information just someone's opinion or was there a proper reference for the information so I can check it out?

Thanks.

Xana

Hi Xana,

It was just a post from a forum member, no references or credentials. And this was a different site entirely. It seemed like an off the cuff response, but was a bummer to read nonetheless.

I understand how you feel. I react sometimes but I try not to believe any random statements that have no backing.

To give an example of how vulnerable I am: Someone on here was wondering if they were psychotic and I googled it to get a proper definition. While doing so I saw a random Rorschach test (you know- interpreting the inkblot type). I completed it and didn't see any of the creepy things you had to choose from. The results came up that I was someone so boring no one would want me as a friend, amongst other things.

I tried to brush it off but felt quite upset as I have found myself lacking in the supportive friends department at the moment. I reluctantly told my husband. He immediately suggested I go back to it and we put stupid answers in. I got another insulting reply. He looked at where this 'psychological' test came from but we couldn't find sponsors etc. Finally we found a disclaimer saying it was for 'fun' and that no one was actually analysing the answers. I was so relieved. I was glad I admitted to why I was upset.

Had I been 'normal' I would have just thought 'What crap!'

I think we are all very susceptible to suggestion in our state.

I sometimes read 'information' that is ridiculous. People say what they 'think' when they are definitely not in the position to be making such claims. Can you go back on and ask where they found this information?

That is an outrageous thing to put into people's minds if it is just what someone 'thinks'. Very cruel to all the people who have done a ct and might have such fears in the backs of their minds.

Xana

Thanks Xana.

You're right, being in a hypersensitive, hyperexcitable state makes seeing negative posts/info particularly troubling. And not taking someone's casual comment as fact can be difficult. For the most part I've been able to filter, but now and then something breaks through and throws me for a loop.

Have you read the Ashton Manual? This is copied and pasted from there:

One reassuring finding from many clinical studies is that eventual success in withdrawal is not affected by duration of use, dosage or type of benzodiazepine, rate of withdrawal, severity of symptoms, psychiatric diagnosis, or previous attempts at withdrawal. Thus from almost any starting point, the motivated long-term user can proceed in good heart.

PROTRACTED WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS

A minority of people who have withdrawn from benzodiazepines seem to suffer long-term effects - protracted symptoms that just don't go away after months or even years. It has been estimated that perhaps 10-15 per cent of long-term benzodiazepine users develop a "post-withdrawal syndrome". Many of these people have taken benzodiazepines for 20 years or more and/or have had bad experiences in withdrawal. The incidence of protracted symptoms in those who have undergone a slow taper under their own control is almost certainly very much lower.

You can feel a bit better as you have only been taking Xanax for a couple of years. I, on the other hand, took Xanax for 16 1/2 years before starting my taper which has dragged on for 11 months now.

I can tell you that I live in fear of what is beyond withdrawal for me. The bloody withdrawal is bad enough.

Xana

Gator--I know someone that did a 5 day detox after high dose/long term use Valium and felt really sick for about a month, and 6 months later felt great.  C/T doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Everyone is so different.  I am slow tapering, but did a few "large" cuts (according to my body) early on and went into acute withdrawal (even though I am on a "small" dose).  This has happened several times throughout my taper.  Sometimes I wonder if I should have just cold-turkeyed!  The grass is always greener.  Everyone is just so different.  However, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that you will heal.  It might take 3 months, 6 months, or even 3 or 4 years, but you will heal.  There was one woman on here AWHILE back that said she had c/t off long-term, high dose benzos years ago.  She had been in contact with Ashton because it took her A LONG time to heal.  In fact, she said even 20 years out she still had some lingering symptoms.  She said her case was VERY rare.  This FREAKED me out.  So I e-mailed her and she replied to me that she is still getting better every year!  She was actually very reassuring and said she had a normal life.  So even in the absolute WORST case scenario, the healing continues.  Again, this is VERY rare, yet she is still healing.  I hope this helped and didn't make you worry more.  My BIGGEST fear is prolonged/permanent withdrawal so I know what you mean!!  Stay strong and read some of the success stories

Hugs,

Tina

Hey Xana,

Yes, I read the Ashton manuel about 6 weeks back. The portion you pasted was good to read again, thank you. Well you've got a nice slow taper going for you, so it would seem that your withdrawal timetable wouldn't stretch on for too long. Are you familiar with Gwen Olson? I believe she was on Xanax for about 10 years, and she's recovered just fine.

What are your symptoms like during the taper? I've given reinstatement some thought, but decided that since my symptoms aren't completely unbearable, I'd ride it out. The only real reason I considered it was because I thought that after a proper taper was complete, the withdrawal duration would be much shorter.

Hi Tina,

Thank you kindly for the reassurance. You're right, there's a very broad spectrum for recovery time. And hearing about someone's extremely long healing process doesn't mean that the same will hold true for myself. I think the fear of protracted symptoms is shared by most of the forum. It seems only natural, especially considering many of us are in a very excitable state. When we know of a worst case scenario, our minds gravitate towards that. It's good to hear about both instances you mentioned; one person recovered pretty quickly, and the other took a long time, but fortunately is still experiencing healing.

And yes, the grass is greener. For awhile there I considered reinstatement to stabilize and taper. Considering my symptoms aren't horrible, the main reason I'd do it was to shorten the recovery time and ensure complete healing. I'm thinking that at 2 months out, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The risk/reward probably isn't worth it.

Hi Gator,

I too find that I have to read Ashton frequently to reassure myself that this really IS to be expected. In fact I pasted the url for the Manual into my apps bar at the top of my computer page so I can find it in 2 seconds. That's how I can pull my quotes out so quickly.

No I haven't read Gwen Olsen but the name sounds familiar. What did she write? I'll google her. I hear people quoting Bliss Johns but I haven't read her either.

My symptoms vary from day to day but are still quite bad at this low dose. Today I am tired, achy, lethargic and a bit spacey in the head - not so that I can't think or type, though. My tongue is burning and my bottom teeth are aching. I just got some washing from the line and unpacked some frozen meals into the freezer. 2 minor jobs and I have to sit down! Yesterday was good - not much aching - shopped, cooked a roast dinner etc.

Some days (usually if I have to attend a social event) I get very bad anxiety to the point I have to take a small bit of Xanax if I want to go out and act normal. Some things I WON'T miss as they are important to me and I am not going to let this drug crap wreck my life completely. My psych knows I do this and he is fine with it.

Some days I cry off and on until the evening . I used to get an awful evening cough which nothing would stop (except Xanax). My chest would tighten etc. Horrible. this would have me crying. Last week I had a bad reaction to the flu shot and was sick for many days - never had that extreme reaction to it before.

I guess I just feel unwell most of the time but manage to push myself to shop etc most of the time. I actually cope less well down here at the bottom than in the middle of the taper.

My case is complicated by the fact I have Fibromyalgia - which is what started me out on the Xanax trail. I was unwell. No one knew what was wrong with me for 18 mths. My whole life turned around. My fun, outgoing, extroverted personality went. I took Xanax to get some semblance of it back. I was told I'd be on it forever. I didn't care. I was sick of being socially phobic.

It was really my psych who wanted me off as he believes that after a long time benzos make anxiety even worse. I wasn't exactly sunshine on it. I had aches and tiredness which worsened depression.

Oh it's a dreary old road. You are wise to get off the stuff now. You are still young. I must admit I probably thought getting off Xanax would be as easy as quitting smoking after 10 years. I didn't even think about withdrawal AFTER quitting. Never realised that until I joined TRAP last year. It would be nice to just know how long it will be.

Xana

In fact, she said even 20 years out she still had some lingering symptoms.

Oh Tina! Now you've put the wind up me! I'll probably be dead in 20 years! Anecdotal stories are always a bit iffy though. You don't know what the people were like BEFORE they took the benzos! I truly believe that some people are just born with more anxious dispositions. You will see people on here  saying that they had panic as children etc. Getting off a drug that has masked this will not cure your brain or nervous disposition or whatever it is.

Even dogs have different anxiety thresholds (as well as all other personality traits). It makes sense that humans do too.

I was crap before I got onto Xanax. However I was only crap because of an illness. A friend told me I only hated the anxiety so much because I'd never had it whereas she'd coped with it all her life from childhood.

I do hope that woman does have a complete recovery though. 

Xana

Gator,

Me again... sick of me yet??  This is from the Ashton Manual, hope it helps:

"Most people experience a definite improvement over time so that symptoms gradually decrease to levels nowhere near as intense as in the early days of withdrawal, and eventually almost entirely disappear. All the studies show steady, if slow, improvement in cognitive ability and physical symptoms. Although most studies have not extended beyond a year after withdrawal, the results suggest that improvement continues beyond this time. There is absolutely no evidence that benzodiazepines cause permanent damage to the brain, nervous system or body."

Also, to answer your other Q, length of time on the drug is more telling of how long w/d may be than dose.  Odds are in your favor for shorter recovery time.  Dose comes into play with a detox/c/t because the higher the jump, the more dangerous it is but I think you are past that critical time at 2 mos. 

Am trying to respond to your other msg...been a rough few days.  ttys...hang in there. 

Gator, I am here to tell you that not everyone suffers PAWS from a c/t.  Due to botched surgeries, I was on and off (mostly on) benzos, ad's, Z drugs and narcotics since 05.  I am a nurse and all my doctor's felt very bad for me and didn't want me to suffer in any way. (or get sued)

In 2010 I did a cold turkey off of 7mg of ativan a day, because the doctor said I could, had a seizure on the 8th day.  I was tapered off after that in TEN days.  The first 2 weeks were horrific, but I can honestly say I started to do better and improved immensely, every week for the next 5 months.

I was hospitalized in Feb of 11 for cardiac defibrillator issues and went back on temazepam to sleep.  I was on for 6 months before tapering (this time) and crossing over to valium.  I did this pretty quickly and suffered no seizures this time.  I am now over 5 months off.  I can tell you that I felt better immediately off the valium.  My agoraphobia and insomnia has improved every week.  I occasionally have a rough day, but I believe that 99.9% of the human race, has on going issues daily....Some worse than others!

Don't be discouraged.  All of us are different and I honestly believe that attitude CAN play a huge part of this.

Take care, Skyy

Oh Skyy,

Thanks so much for telling your story. It gives me hope of life beyond........

Maybe one day I will be 'normal'. You are so right about everyone having life issues.

Xana

Oh Skyy,

 

Thanks so much for telling your story. It gives me hope of life beyond........

 

Maybe one day I will be 'normal'. You are so right about everyone having life issues.

 

Xana

you will be honey.  did you read Colins post on the thread about how long wd can last?

Hi Sunny,

Noooo, I couldn't get sick of you... You've got all the good info.

Thanks, that Ashton excerpt is a reassuring one. I guess I was a little more susceptible to negative information yesterday. For the most part I've been able to stay positive through this, but just the idea of permanent issues was enough to bring me down there for a bit. Thanks for helping dispel my doubts.

Length of time on, that makes sense in terms of symptom duration. Dosage definitely played a factor in my harsh acute withdrawal. Demon heads!! Still can't believe those demon head hallucination I had early on. Pretty happy they're gone. The one I would see reminded me of the main villain in that old Tom Cruise fantasy movie, Legend. I think that demon was played by Tim Roth.

As for my other message, no worries. It was pretty long...

Rough few days? What's been going on?

Warren

Warren,

  Oh, funny.  Not sure I have "all the good info"...but I know what has helped me and made me feel better.  Glad to hear you think so too. 

Totally normal to be susceptible to negative info.  This is scary trying to learn about all that is happening to us.  And while our brains are working hard at functioning to boot.  There will be ups and downs but you're doing the right thing by trying to stay positive more often than giving in to the dark.  You're doing great. 

Demon heads!?  Ugh!  Did they scare you?  I mean, did you feel like they were really there?  Well, hallucination in itself is scary.  The Lord of Darkness!?  Eek!  That woulda scared me.  I mainly hallucinated bugs and sometimes these weird lights.  I remember having these long debates with myself about whether or not they were real.  Strangely I wasn't too scared of the bugs, more that I thought I was halluncinating.  The bugs weren't the really the scariest bugs I could think of!  It was almost like my brain was saying, "okay, you c/t'd so we gotta throw some hallucinations at ya but we'll try to make them pretty mild cause we feel bad for ya"   

This week I had a flare up.  I get this electrical current type feeling that runs under my skin.  I have that all day everyday but some days are worse.  So I had that plus a burning feeling on my forehead that gets nearly unbearable.  And I have w/d induced eye problems.  My anxiety spiked from it all (or the anxiety caused the flare?) and I couldn't fall asleep until about 6am.  My "normal" bedtime is usually 4-5 am, which also sucks but at least I am sleeping when I do fall alseep.  Things got a little more tolerable yesterday and I still feel "okay" today.  Just holding on, surviving.  You know, the usual.    How are you feeling??

Don't worry, I get kind of long winded myself.   

Hey Sunny,

Demon heads indeed. They were pretty scary, especially before I knew they were a symptom of withdrawal. It was pretty shocking to find out that many folks specifically see demons in wd. Yes, the fear of actually hallucinating trumped what I was hallucinating. I'm glad your brain threw only mild ones at you. You don't still see the bugs, do you?

Sorry to hear about your flare up. With the anxiety and other symptoms, it's pretty "chicken or egg." Sometimes I can't tell which came first or which is fueling the other. Has the electrical current feeling eased up a bit?

Yes, holding and surviving have become the usual. Someday soon we'll be living without having that clenched-fist, hold on tight feeling.

I'm doing better myself, thanks. I have some burning feeling around my hips and tailbone. Kind of nervy, not terribly painful, but definitely does not feel good. Sometimes my legs burn a bit too. Aside from that, I'm okay. You know, surviving...

Gator, I find the Bliss Johns coping strategy really helpful when I start to think I will never be better.

She asks you to question if what you are thinking is the only possible outcome (Of course it is not, in fact even if this post on another forum is true, it's the first time I have heard of such a thing) 

Next step is to ask what other outcomes are possible, which are always more positive than your darkest fear at the moment, review the success stories, let the positive feedback enter in.

I too have seen demons, with eyes closed, and had demonic feelings, I was just talking about this with my wife the other day, had it last year when I cut back way too fast - weird.  Was completely ignorant to benzo withdrawal at the time, really thought I was going absolutely crazy.

One day at a time, we are all healing, and we are all incredibly strong to cope with what we do and continue soldiering on 

hi Gator,

did a c/t off 3 mg xanax last Sept. I think Im doing good, the beginning ws rough, no seizures, etc just felt pretty bad. Lots of inner vibrating, ringing ears, d/r, some burning in my shoulders, jumping leg, etc/ when trying to sleep (that has left)

The first time I went out after 2 mo was ROUGH but its not bad now have to have hubby with me but hey, we will heal. 

I sleep all night, thats a plus. I even take naps. Im on my 7th mo now.

Hey Sunny,

 

Demon heads indeed. They were pretty scary, especially before I knew they were a symptom of withdrawal. It was pretty shocking to find out that many folks specifically see demons in wd. Yes, the fear of actually hallucinating trumped what I was hallucinating. I'm glad your brain threw only mild ones at you. You don't still see the bugs, do you?

 

Sorry to hear about your flare up. With the anxiety and other symptoms, it's pretty "chicken or egg." Sometimes I can't tell which came first or which is fueling the other. Has the electrical current feeling eased up a bit?

 

Yes, holding and surviving have become the usual. Someday soon we'll be living without having that clenched-fist, hold on tight feeling.

 

I'm doing better myself, thanks. I have some burning feeling around my hips and tailbone. Kind of nervy, not terribly painful, but definitely does not feel good. Sometimes my legs burn a bit too. Aside from that, I'm okay. You know, surviving...

Warren,

Yikes!  I didn't know demons are a common w/d hallucination!  Guess I lucked out on that one.  I don't still see the bugs...well, I'm seeing sugar ants in my kitchen but I get them every year so I'm pretty sure they are real.  Maybe I should ask my mom the next time she stops by if she sees them though?!  Are your demons gone?  Lol, who knew that Q could be a double entendre!

Yes, the chicken or the egg.  <sigh>  Won't that be nice when we get to live without that hold on tight feeling?  It feels like I've been doing it forever.  I almost can't remember what it feels like to be "normal".  It's going to be amazing I think. 

Does heat or ice help your nerve burning?  Some people have reported relief from Biofreeze.  I have used it in the past for my muscles but didn't think it would be a good idea to use on my nerve pain in my hands.  Wouldn't want to inadvertently touch my already sore eyes with menthol hands!  So sick of being afraid to try things that could help.  It's hard when other problems get in the way. 

Hi Gardenia!  Congrats on your 7 mos. mark!

Heny, I love it!  Another Bliss Johns fan.  She has been such a gift to us all in w/d, hasn't she? 

Keep on fighting everyone!

Well, I did it again...

 

Was looking online for some info on specific symptom relief info, and found myself reading a thread on another forum with a post talking about 'permanent withdrawal' due to cold turkey discontinuation from a benzo. I usually don't get hung up on worst case scenario type stuff, but this one really struck a chord with me. I've been pretty bummed out ever since. The prospect of permanent withdrawal symptoms is frightening to say the least.

 

Anyone have a positive response to combat this? It would be much appreciated.

 

Also, what is more relevant to the withdrawal timeline; mg or duration on the drug? I know it's impossible to estimate recovery time, but of the two factors, is one more telling?

 

Thank you for reading.

Hey Gator,

I shared your concerns for quite a while. I have spent a lot of time reading stories and researching information about benzos over the last 26, going on 27, months that I have been in benzo w/d. Ashton did a supplement to the Ashton Manual and she released it last April 2011. From what I understood...yes there could be some permanent brain damage left over, but you have to put that into perspective. She is not saying you are gonna be brain dead. At the very worst one may have a few barely noticeable symptoms that fade into the background as times goes on. The brain is very resiliant and it does make new connections and adapts to make up for any defiencies it may encounter. I think people get hung up on the words "brain damage" as they picture a mental patient after a labotomy. Not the case here.

Here is the supplement. Try not to get to hung up on the negative. You will see towards the end she explains that in time we all get back to living life.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

This is the last paragraph in that Supplement....

Conclusion

"The advice and explanations given in the Supplement may seem inadequate. They no doubt illustrate how much more we still need to know about benzodiazepines. However, it is important to remember that by far the greatest majority of long-term benzodiazepine users do recover from withdrawal - given time. Even protracted symptoms tend to decrease gradually, sometimes over years. The individual needs to know that the actual drug withdrawal is only the first step towards recovery. It may be followed by a prolonged period of convalescence during which the damage caused to the person's body - and often to his whole life - needs to be repaired as far as possible. But the brain, like the rest of the body, has an enormous capacity for adapting and self-healing. That is how life survives and how ex-benzodiazepine 'addicts' can be optimistic about their future."

chrisw

GReat info Chrisw.

Sierra Tucson in AZ have been doing pet scans on patient's that are affected by opiates, alcohol and benzodiazepines.  These show diminished function in the frontal lobe of the brain.  Pretty significant loss of function too.  They also show a return of function in those areas when the patient has been off the substances for 6months to 18 months.

I will see if I can find those studies Gator..

Skyy

Hey Skyy

I find this really interesting so the damage actually shows up in scans.  My doctor has offered me a brain scan I may just go ahead and do it.  Do our own study what do you think?  Ill do it now fresh off and every six months for 2 years. 

I seriously do not think we have to worry about a thing our brains are such complicated things have you ever read a book called The Brain That Heals Itself even people with acquired brain injury can relearn things and heal.  Im staying positive.  We are all going to be fine.

Lizzy

GReat info Chrisw. Sierra Tucson in AZ have been doing pet scans on patient's that are affected by opiates, alcohol and benzodiazepines.  These show diminished function in the frontal lobe of the brain.  Pretty significant loss of function too.  They also show a return of function in those areas when the patient has been off the substances for 6months to 18 months. I will see if I can find those studies Gator..

Skyy

Yes, the brain has a tremendous potential for healing and I believe what is called neuroplasticity.  Richard Davidson wrote a book that came out last month called "The Emotional Life of your Brain".  Studies have proven that mindfulness and meditation can change the function and structure of the brain.  Yes, the pre frontal cortex can become more active in it's connections with other important parts of the brain.

Time can help on this jouurney but time alone does not heal.  We must also be proactive and try to be as optimistic as possible in our outlook and how we interpret our situation moving forward.    Sometimes we must advocate for ourselves and educate our doctors. One lone poster saying this is going to last forever must be countered by a more rational perspective, that everyone is different, each person brings a different profile and history as well as genetic composition and environmental exposure to the benzo.  And even with a less favorable history or circumstance, healing can and will take place, perhaps to varying degrees.  It may  not happen as quickly as one might prefer, but it happens gradually and surely.

Vertigo