Switching to a different benzo questions? Please, no judgment

Has anyone else crossed over to Valium per Ashton protocol, stayed on it for months and realized it just isn’t working for them? I started the crossover from Xanax in April of this year. Please, no judgment. I have given this everything I have and it’s not working for me. I don’t think I can handle Valium anymore. It feels like I’m taking almost nothing at this point. I’m looking for support and advice on switching, which is looking like it’s going to be my only option at this point. I’m so exhausted and mentally drained. I just don’t know what to do. 

If anyone can help or has been there, done that and has advice I would appreciate it greatly.

Hi ThroughAGlassDarkly,

When you crossed over to Valium, are you sure you stayed at an equivalent dose?  Xanax is 5 to 10 times stronger than Valium for a given number of milligrams.  So you would need to take 5 to 10 times as many milligrams of Valium as your xanax dose.

Did you do the crossover right?

I've seen people on here who just switched everything over to valium at once, while it has to been done only partly.

I see you're on 45 mg Valium, that's a lot.

Maybe you should just try to get lower, and then you maybe feel better.

Tapering off a high potent benzodiazepine like Xanax is no picknick.

Hi TAGD,

I’m so sorry to hear you’re still experiencing such suffering after a considerable amount of time on the Valium. It’s such an unknown, whether crossing to another benzo would ease your suffering and provide a more comfortable experience from which to taper, or if the crossover would only destabilise you further, and potentially only increase and intensify your symptoms. I’ve seen a few other members facing the same situation, eventually choosing to crossover which poses its own set of challenges, before then having to wait a considerable amount of time in hope of stabilisation. I have told you about my difficulty in crossing directly from clonazepam to diazepam and how long it took to find some level of stabilisation. It took a long time, and I nearly crossed back to clonazepam even after 3 months, but eventually chose to stick it out with the diazepam. I can’t compare my symptoms to yours, none of us can, it’s impossible, but I can tell you that the slightest little thing can have an astronomical affect on my symptoms severity - altered dosage times, unhealthy food/sugar, dehydration, and stress is the absolute worst. My concern is that if you are suffering intensely now, I wonder how you would go through the crossover, having to not only adjust to a new benzo again, but also withdrawing from the diazepam at the same time, and then of course, the time it may take for you to stabilise to the level you are looking for.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that it’s not an option for you, or that it wouldn’t work. There is always the possibility that it may actually be the right course of action for you, regardless of whether it was or wasn’t for other members who have made the switch. We really can’t know, so the best we can do is provide you with a balanced view and support you in your decision, whatever that may be. Hopefully others will provide some feedback as to their own experiences of making multiple crossovers. But just be aware that just because a certain course of action worked for one member, doesn’t necessarily mean it will be the right course of action for another, and vice-versa. Just in closing, I just want to say that I feel I understand what you say about the Valium doing nothing… I don’t really feel like it does anything for me either, but it does stop me from going into acute withdrawal. The clonazepam was much more comfortable, but in the end I questioned whether I would really feel any better if I did choose to cross back over, and I actually had my doubts after what I’d already been through in C/T and the difficult direct switch to diazepam. In the end, all you can do is weigh things up and then make the decision that feels right for you, and hope that it is indeed the right decision. We will support you either way.

I hope others will share their thoughts and experiences after having been faced with similar situations.

Whatever you choose, I do believe you will find your way through this. You’re much stronger than you might think!

WS

Did you do the crossover right?

 

I've seen people on here who just switched everything over to valium at once, while it has to been done only partly.

 

I see you're on 45 mg Valium, that's a lot.

 

Maybe you should just try to get lower, and then you maybe feel better.

 

Tapering off a high potent benzodiazepine like Xanax is no picknick.

Followed Ashton.  I did it right, that I am sure of thanks to my notebook and notes. I held at the later stages , stage 11 if I remember correctly I stayed at for 5 weeks. (Too dizzy to grab my notes) I was at 3.25 mgs Xanax when I started the crossover. I started my original taper at 4 mgs Xanax before crossing to Valium, tried for months, had to updose because I rushed it not knowing what I was getting into in the early stages. My original dose was 6 mgs Xanax a day for years, many years,but I got myself to 4 before I started tapering. The thing is that with Valium I literally cannot get any lower. I just can’t do it.

Did you do the crossover right?

 

I've seen people on here who just switched everything over to valium at once, while it has to been done only partly.

 

I see you're on 45 mg Valium, that's a lot.

 

Maybe you should just try to get lower, and then you maybe feel better.

 

Tapering off a high potent benzodiazepine like Xanax is no picknick.

Followed Ashton.  I did it right, that I am sure of thanks to my notebook and notes. I held at the later stages , stage 11 if I remember correctly I stayed at for 5 weeks. (Too dizzy to grab my notes) I was at 3.25 mgs Xanax when I started the crossover. I started my original taper at 4 mgs Xanax before crossing to Valium, tried for months, had to updose because I rushed it not knowing what I was getting into in the early stages. My original dose was 6 mgs Xanax a day for years, many years,but I got myself to 4 before I started tapering. The thing is that with Valium I literally cannot get any lower. I just can’t do it.

You don't have to follow Ashton exactly. Ashton is just a general guideline, which can be tweaked to your own preferences.

For example, if Ashton says your next cut should be 5 mg Valium, and you can't tolerate that cute, maybe you should try a cut of 2 mg. Just an example.

You should do symptom based reductions.

Actually it's 20 times more potent. 

Hi ThroughAGlassDarkly,

 

When you crossed over to Valium, are you sure you stayed at an equivalent dose?  Xanax is 5 to 10 times stronger than Valium for a given number of milligrams.  So you would need to take 5 to 10 times as many milligrams of Valium as your xanax dose.

Hi TAGD,

 

I’m so sorry to hear you’re still experiencing such suffering after a considerable amount of time on the Valium. It’s such an unknown, whether crossing to another benzo would ease your suffering and provide a more comfortable experience from which to taper, or if the crossover would only destabilise you further, and potentially only increase and intensify your symptoms. I’ve seen a few other members facing the same situation, eventually choosing to crossover which poses its own set of challenges, before then having to wait a considerable amount of time in hope of stabilisation. I have told you about my difficulty in crossing directly from clonazepam to diazepam and how long it took to find some level of stabilisation. It took a long time, and I nearly crossed back to clonazepam even after 3 months, but eventually chose to stick it out with the diazepam. I can’t compare my symptoms to yours, none of us can, it’s impossible, but I can tell you that the slightest little thing can have an astronomical affect on my symptoms severity - altered dosage times, unhealthy food/sugar, dehydration, and stress is the absolute worst. My concern is that if you are suffering intensely now, I wonder how you would go through the crossover, having to not only adjust to a new benzo again, but also withdrawing from the diazepam at the same time, and then of course, the time it may take for you to stabilise to the level you are looking for.

 

Of course, this doesn’t mean that it’s not an option for you, or that it wouldn’t work. There is always the possibility that it may actually be the right course of action for you, regardless of whether it was or wasn’t for other members who have made the switch. We really can’t know, so the best we can do is provide you with a balanced view and support you in your decision, whatever that may be. Hopefully others will provide some feedback as to their own experiences of making multiple crossovers. But just be aware that just because a certain course of action worked for one member, doesn’t necessarily mean it will be the right course of action for another, and vice-versa. Just in closing, I just want to say that I feel I understand what you say about the Valium doing nothing… I don’t really feel like it does anything for me either, but it does stop me from going into acute withdrawal. The clonazepam was much more comfortable, but in the end I questioned whether I would really feel any better if I did choose to cross back over, and I actually had my doubts after what I’d already been through in C/T and the difficult direct switch to diazepam. In the end, all you can do is weigh things up and then make the decision that feels right for you, and hope that it is indeed the right decision. We will support you either way.

 

I hope others will share their thoughts and experiences after having been faced with similar situations.

 

Whatever you choose, I do believe you will find your way through this. You’re much stronger than you might think!

 

WS

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all replies. I’m not sure what I’m going to do quite yet. I also worry about how switching to another benzo will affect me but I also think about how I can’t make any reductions in the Valium either and how terrible I feel on it, so I’m just hoping that some others who have switched from Valium chime in. You’re right, we can’t compare our symptoms or situation to anyone else either, so I guess I have to decide for myself. I just know that I felt terrible when I was direct tapering Xanax but this is even worse. In hindsight I was making much larger cuts direct tapering Xanax than 10% or less, so I feel like it caught up to me. I definitely have a lot to think about and consider. Thanks again for your reply.

Hi TAGD,

I’ve still been sitting here thinking about you, and I can’t help but think that all through this process your brain has never had the chance to acclimatise. Let’s start at the beginning. You say you were making much larger cuts direct tapering Xanax and you feel like it caught up to you. So then you begin a crossover to Valium using the Ashton schedule by following it to the letter (when it’s really just a guideline), and it’s quite possible that you weren’t even ready to begin a crossover at that stage because of the larger Xanax reductions catching up with you. Once this crossover begins, nothing is ever the same as far as your brain is concerned as the dosages of Xanax lower and Valium doses increase. You’re brain is still trying to recover from the large Xanax reductions which caught up with you whilst you are lowering them further and substituting them for another benzo. You then reach a point where you no longer have any Xanax in your system, so beneath the Valium, which you haven’t nearly adjusted to yet, there’s a hefty withdrawal taking place which takes time to overcome. Each individual takes their own unique timeline to withdraw from the previous benzo and adjust to the new benzo, and in some cases this can take months, as it did for me. Then you make your first 5mg reduction from the Valium that you’re not ready for, and your brain is thrown into further chaos. You eventually realise because of the increased symptoms that maybe you weren’t ready for that reduction yet, so you up-dose and your brain says “what the hell is going on, I’m trying to find equilibrium here”, and throughout this entire 6 month period your brain has not had the chance to get used to any one particular benzo or consistent dose. What if you hold where you are for longer and consider this the starting point where you finally allow your brain the chance to rely on that one particular benzo and that one particular dose to eventually stabilise. Also, try and see that once you do stabilise, you will no longer experience the Valium the same way you do at the moment. I hated the Valium for months, but eventually it did feel much more comfortable and now I can’t even imagine changing to another benzo. I eventually adjusted to the Valium. You’ve come such a long way in this crossover, and I’d hate to see you turn back now when your stabilisation may be only just around the corner if you just allowed your brain the opportunity to finally rely on this one regular dose for a period of time, which is something it hasn’t had the opportunity to do until now. Just think about it, that’s all I ask.

If you decide to choose the other option, we will still be here to support you.

WS

Hi,

I was crossed from 5.5mg Ativan to 55mg Valium and had an absolutely horrible reaction to Valium.

Also my psych Dr. used Ashton incorrectly ..I should not have been crossed over entirely as SnelleJelle discovered for me on here..I was supposed to be half Ativan, half Valuim and begin tapering the Ativan)

Anyway I developed agoraphobia and my depression increased a lot.

I have talked to other people who also think Valium has a different effect than the other benzos. I have heard it described as feeling "dark" and i felt that certainly.

The only thing is that Xanax has a short half-life, so they say it is harder to taper from.

I switched back to Ativan and am tapering, but I can't say if you should go back to Xanax.

Maybe others here who have tapered Xanax could chime in.

I hope this helps a little,

xJenny

Hi,

 

I was crossed from 5.5mg Ativan to 55mg Valium and had an absolutely horrible reaction to Valium.

Also my psych Dr. used Ashton incorrectly ..I should not have been crossed over entirely as SnelleJelle discovered for me on here..I was supposed to be half Ativan, half Valuim and begin tapering the Ativan)

Anyway I developed agoraphobia and my depression increased a lot.

I have talked to other people who also think Valium has a different effect than the other benzos. I have heard it described as feeling "dark" and i felt that certainly.

The only thing is that Xanax has a short half-life, so they say it is harder to taper from.

I switched back to Ativan and am tapering, but I can't say if you should go back to Xanax.

Maybe others here who have tapered Xanax could chime in.

 

I hope this helps a little,

xJenny

I’m sorry your doctor didn’t cross your dose properly! That must have been awful 

I did do it properly, well, followed the Ashton method. Went through the stages, etc. How long were you on the Valium before you switched back to Ativan? Did you just switch back or did you do a sort of crossover back to Ativan? Ativan is somewhat comparable regarding half life as Xanax so that’s why I am wondering, if I do decide to switch to a different benzo, do I have to do a gradual reduction of Valium and crossover or do I just switch? I was considering switching to Klonopin and my pdoc as well as a pharmacist told me I could just stop the Valium and start the klonopin but read some conflicting things about that so I’m confused.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all input and experience I can get on this.

Hi,

I just switched back after about a month on all Valium. I did not cross taper and I did not see any increase in side effects or notice any real difference. Unfortunately the problems the Valium gave me ( agoraphobia, worse depression) did not subside after I switched back, but I was concerned that if I stayed on the Valium I would get even more worsening issues.

Since I developed tolerance withdrawls on Ativan before I ever crossed or tapered, I have never been without a lot of difficult symptoms.

I do not really stabilize ever, if stabilize means feeling okay, when I make cuts I get horrible and then eventually I get back to my "normal" condition which is pretty bad.

That is my situation but we are all so different. Really no one has the exact same reaction to anything as far as I can tell.

It can be frustrating to never have really precise knowledge of what you will feel when switching meds, cutting doses, holding ect.

I had to accept that at one point. I wanted to come on to the forum and get concrete answers and it just is not possible, but we can see some reoccurring experiences from other benzobuddies that can be a basic guideline. And of course we can get a lot of comfort here.

I hope this helps,

Sending lots of encouragement to you,

xJenny

Hi,

I just switched back after about a month on all Valium. I did not cross taper and I did not see any increase in side effects or notice any real difference. Unfortunately the problems the Valium gave me ( agoraphobia, worse depression) did not subside after I switched back, but I was concerned that if I stayed on the Valium I would get even more worsening issues.

 

Since I developed tolerance withdrawls on Ativan before I ever crossed or tapered, I have never been without a lot of difficult symptoms.

I do not really stabilize ever, if stabilize means feeling okay, when I make cuts I get horrible and then eventually I get back to my "normal" condition which is pretty bad.

 

That is my situation but we are all so different. Really no one has the exact same reaction to anything as far as I can tell.

It can be frustrating to never have really precise knowledge of what you will feel when switching meds, cutting doses, holding ect.

I had to accept that at one point. I wanted to come on to the forum and get concrete answers and it just is not possible, but we can see some reoccurring experiences from other benzobuddies that can be a basic guideline. And of course we can get a lot of comfort here.

 

I hope this helps,

Sending lots of encouragement to you,

xJenny

Thanks, and yes it does help to at least know I’m not alone in this, although knowing others are suffering doesn’t help, but I think you know what I’m trying to say. I also feel like I never really truly “stabilize” either. Even before I crossed over to Valium. I’m sorry you’re still having the agoraphobia and depression from the Valium.    That’s one of the reasons why I’m considering switching because I’m not getting anywhere with Valium. I truly can’t reduce it. It stinks! Thanks for the encouragement and support, and I’m sending encouragement right back to you!

Hi ThroughADarkGlassDarkly,

I am sorry to hear you are suffering. There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons when it comes to converting to Diazepam. I think consensus would be if you can, taper your original Benzo. I was instantly switched to Diazepam and my whole experience was just horrible. However I did eventually stabilize on Diazepam.

I understand it is so much information and often times we just don't know what to do (I've been there). Personally I would not recommend crossing over to Clonazepam.

Converting, updosing, reducing, switching Benzos all cause distress to the brain and body. You say you never seem to stabilize and that is sad to hear. I think currently I am seeing a new movement of people that decide tapering their original Benzo and I personally think they are on to something. Ofcourse potency and halflife is a challenge, but not impossible.

Be well and be safe,

Naf1983

Hi,

 

I was crossed from 5.5mg Ativan to 55mg Valium and had an absolutely horrible reaction to Valium.

Also my psych Dr. used Ashton incorrectly ..I should not have been crossed over entirely as SnelleJelle discovered for me on here..I was supposed to be half Ativan, half Valuim and begin tapering the Ativan)

Anyway I developed agoraphobia and my depression increased a lot.

I have talked to other people who also think Valium has a different effect than the other benzos. I have heard it described as feeling "dark" and i felt that certainly.

The only thing is that Xanax has a short half-life, so they say it is harder to taper from.

I switched back to Ativan and am tapering, but I can't say if you should go back to Xanax.

Maybe others here who have tapered Xanax could chime in.

 

I hope this helps a little,

xJenny

 

I’m sorry your doctor didn’t cross your dose properly! That must have been awful 

I did do it properly, well, followed the Ashton method. Went through the stages, etc. How long were you on the Valium before you switched back to Ativan? Did you just switch back or did you do a sort of crossover back to Ativan? Ativan is somewhat comparable regarding half life as Xanax so that’s why I am wondering, if I do decide to switch to a different benzo, do I have to do a gradual reduction of Valium and crossover or do I just switch? I was considering switching to Klonopin and my pdoc as well as a pharmacist told me I could just stop the Valium and start the klonopin but read some conflicting things about that so I’m confused.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all input and experience I can get on this.

Just double-checking …

Are you aware that making ‘small enough’ reductions in dose with clonazepam is particularly challenging due to its high potency and limited commercial dosage forms and strengths?  In the US, a commercially manufactured oral solution (liquid) is not available.  The lowest strength solid dosage form is a 0.125mg Orally Disintegrating Tablet.

Hi ThroughADarkGlassDarkly,

 

I am sorry to hear you are suffering. There has been a lot of talk about the pros and cons when it comes to converting to Diazepam. I think consensus would be if you can, taper your original Benzo. I was instantly switched to Diazepam and my whole experience was just horrible. However I did eventually stabilize on Diazepam.

 

I understand it is so much information and often times we just don't know what to do (I've been there). Personally I would not recommend crossing over to Clonazepam.

 

Converting, updosing, reducing, switching Benzos all cause distress to the brain and body. You say you never seem to stabilize and that is sad to hear. I think currently I am seeing a new movement of people that decide tapering their original Benzo and I personally think they are on to something. Ofcourse potency and halflife is a challenge, but not impossible.

 

Be well and be safe,

Naf1983

 

 

Hi,

 

I was crossed from 5.5mg Ativan to 55mg Valium and had an absolutely horrible reaction to Valium.

Also my psych Dr. used Ashton incorrectly ..I should not have been crossed over entirely as SnelleJelle discovered for me on here..I was supposed to be half Ativan, half Valuim and begin tapering the Ativan)

Anyway I developed agoraphobia and my depression increased a lot.

I have talked to other people who also think Valium has a different effect than the other benzos. I have heard it described as feeling "dark" and i felt that certainly.

The only thing is that Xanax has a short half-life, so they say it is harder to taper from.

I switched back to Ativan and am tapering, but I can't say if you should go back to Xanax.

Maybe others here who have tapered Xanax could chime in.

 

I hope this helps a little,

xJenny

 

I’m sorry your doctor didn’t cross your dose properly! That must have been awful 

I did do it properly, well, followed the Ashton method. Went through the stages, etc. How long were you on the Valium before you switched back to Ativan? Did you just switch back or did you do a sort of crossover back to Ativan? Ativan is somewhat comparable regarding half life as Xanax so that’s why I am wondering, if I do decide to switch to a different benzo, do I have to do a gradual reduction of Valium and crossover or do I just switch? I was considering switching to Klonopin and my pdoc as well as a pharmacist told me I could just stop the Valium and start the klonopin but read some conflicting things about that so I’m confused.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate all input and experience I can get on this.

Naf, thanks for the reply. Yes, my psych did bring up the option to go back to Xanax last time I saw him but I was just thinking about the half life, etc. which is why I thought of klonopin. Granted I did taper at higher than 10% cuts when I was on Xanax, and I dosed 4x a day. I was making 0.25 mg cuts each time, so too much. I now know about micro tapering and even the option of liquid titration and compounding pharmacies. Looking back to when I was on Xanax and not considering crossover to Valium yet, I was struggling, possibly because my reductions were too large, too quick, etc. I felt bad but not like this. This is entirely a different level of awful. I have lost about 14 pounds in a month, give or take a few days. I’m unable to eat, it’s just gotten worse since I tried to cut a few weeks ago and has not gotten better or even slightly leveled out at all. I very well may go back to my original benzo. I have a lot of things to think about. If I go back to Xanax is there a method to crossing back to it, is it like reverse Ashton protocol or is it different? Do I just stop Valium and start Xanax? That’s what I was told to do for Klonopin.

Thank you for your support 

Just double-checking …

 

Are you aware that making ‘small enough’ reductions in dose with clonazepam is particularly challenging due to its high potency and limited commercial dosage forms and strengths?  In the US, a commercially manufactured oral solution (liquid) is not available.  The lowest strength solid dosage form is a 0.125mg Orally Disintegrating Tablet.

Yes, I have found that out. How do people reduce then once they get that low? Liquid titration? Compounding pharmacy? I’m trying not to get ahead of myself here but also want to be informed.

How do people reduce then once they get that low? Liquid titration? Compounding pharmacy? I’m trying not to get ahead of myself here but also want to be informed.

Members have used a variety of approaches — as well as a combination of approaches (e.g. solid and liquid dosage forms) — to make ‘small enough’ reductions in clonazepam. These include:

- Manufacturer’s solid dosage forms in different strengths

- Manufacturer’s oral liquid (not an option for clonazepam in US)

- Compounded liquid (stability-tested formulations available)

- Compounded capsules and tablets

- Do-it-yourself weighing of pill pieces/powder using digital scale/balance

- Do-it-yourself liquid

Notes:

- What works for one individual, may not work for another.

- Individuals may need to use different approaches during different phases of their taper.

- Making modifications in a prescription drug conveys risk. As a general rule of thumb, the greater the degree of modification, the greater the risk.