Author Topic: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?  (Read 3275 times)

[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2022, 07:28:21 pm »
Good news: the graduated cylinder arrived [...]. Shipping from the US to my country was much faster than anticipated. I now have all of the equipment required to start the titration if I wish to proceed now.
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2022, 07:33:06 pm »
Hurray!  Thank you for the good news update, [...].  Have you made a decision re: updosing? 
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2022, 11:11:39 am »
I did end up updosing to 7.5mg and have accordingly bought a 100mL graduated cylinder (same brand / line of cylinders).

I have thought some more about the dilution process and have some concerns (potentially easily addressed).

1. When shaking the diluted solution in the mixing recipient (4oz mason jar), there will probably be some leftover liquid on the (underside of the) lid. I will try to salvage it into the recipient, but some liquid may still be lost. As a result, the dosage of Valium may become erroneous. How much of a concern is this?

2. Planning ahead. When I will reach lower amounts of diazepam (1 to 3mg), it may become difficult to remove the unwanted/excess diluted solution by drawing it with a 5mL syringe from the mixing recipient. For instance, with a dose of 0.9mg diazepam, the diluted solution only amounts to 9mL. At this point, I will dilute the solution more than 100-fold (the current rate), probably anywhere between 200 or 250-fold.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2022, 05:16:20 pm by [Buddie] »
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2022, 03:09:06 pm »
I did end up updosing to 7.5mg and have accordingly bought a 100mL graduated cylinder (same brand / line of cylinders).

I have thought some more about the dilution process and have some concerns (potentially easily addressed).

1. When shaking the diluted solution in the mixing recipient (4oz mason jar), there will probably be some leftover liquid on the (underside of the) lid. I will try to salvage it into the recipient, but some liquid may still be lost. As a result, the dosage of Valium may become erroneous. How much of a concern is this?

2. Planning ahead. When I will reach lower amounts of diazepam (1 to 3mg), it may become difficult to remove the unwanted/excess diluted solution by drawing it with a 5mL syringe from the mixing recipient. For instance, with a dose of 0.9mg diazepam, the diluted solution only amounts to 9mL. At this point, I will dilute the solution more than 100-fold (the current rate), probably anywhere between 200 or 250-fold.
For item 1, try to give yourself a break.  Perhaps since the few drops lost will be basically the same each time you make a new batch, after the first loss, it will be consistant?
For item 2, can you buy a larger syringe.  See this link https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=100+ml+syringe&crid=157MI1TYE69KF&sprefix=100+ml+syringe%2Caps%2C83&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2022, 09:27:58 pm »
1. Indeed, the loss of diluted solution should be consistent with every batch made.

I had forgotten from my lab sessions in high school that there is always some loss involved in chemistry (for example during chemical reactions)! It is not an exact science after all, and this is why rigorous error measurement/approximation matters so much.

That said, I’m not doing industrial chemistry here, so it does not in fact matter much in my case. I will still try to measure very approximately the amount of diluted solution that stays stuck to the underside of the lid. My guess is no more than 1-2mL.

 I can either:

- try to adjust for the loss by drawing out 1-2mL less of diluted solution with the 5mL syringe in the final step

- not adjust for the loss, and instead assume that this will be the first dosage reduction of the taper (i.e. losing 1-2mL means tapering by 0.1 or 0.2mg).

The second option is probably easier in the longer run (possibly at the expense of a rougher start to my taper), as I won’t have to remember every time that I need to adjust for the loss when removing the excess diluted solution. Given the cognitive difficulties that come with my chronic illness, this is the safe/foolproof way.

In either case, as [...] pointed out, what matters is that I record whether I experience withdrawal symptoms at first (and of course all throughout my taper).

2. A larger syringe has a longer tip, so I believe that this would only make drawing small volumes of diluted solution (under 10mL) more difficult, not easier. Am I mistaken, [...]? (My apologies if this seems dumb, it is late in the evening and the past few days have been very taxing on me.)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 09:47:47 pm by [Buddie] »
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2022, 10:36:45 pm »
Re: your concern about drug/water mixture remaining on the lid of the mixing/drinking container …

1. Prepare the drug/water mixture.
2. Shake the mixture well. Remove XmLs of the mixture, drink the remaining YmLs.
3. Add some water to the container.
4. Replace the lid.
5. Swirl the water around the container and the inner surface of the lid.
6. Remove the lid.
7. Drink the rinse water.

Repeat Steps 3 - 7 one more time (or as many times as needed for you to feel confident you have removed and ingested any drug/water mixture remaining on the inner surfaces of the container and the lid).

Edit: Added ‘Shake the mixture well.”
« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 04:20:15 pm by [Buddie] »
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2022, 11:16:40 pm »
Re: your concern about drug/water mixture remaining on the lid of the mixing/drinking container …

1. Prepare the drug/water mixture.
2. Remove XmLs of the mixture, drink the remaining YmLs.
3. Add some water to the container.
4. Replace the lid.
5. Swirl the water around the container and the inner surface of the lid.
6. Remove the lid.
7. Drink the rinse water.

Repeat Steps 3 - 7 one more time (or as many times as needed for you to feel confident you have removed and ingested any drug/water mixture remaining on the inner surfaces of the container and the lid).
Oh, I had not thought about rinsing the lid. Clever and simple solution. For the umpteenth time, thank you, [...] — it is so useful to have your working brain helping my slow one. Much appreciated.
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2022, 11:21:49 pm »
You are welcome, [...].  I hope you are beginning to feel better after your updose.

Your questions about syringes reminds me of something I wanted to mention. When you have reduced your dose by 50%, you may want to consider switching from the measure/discard to the measure/ingest method. Using the 50mL of drug/water example we’ve been discussing, you would reach the 50% mark at 25mL.  At that point, instead of measuring 25mL and discarding it, you could obtain the same dose by measuring 25mL and ingesting it.  For the next stage, you would measure a smaller amount (e.g. 24mL) and ingest that, etc.

One of the advantages of making the switch to measure/ingest is that you would be able to use the same capacity syringes you have been using for the measure/discard method.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2022, 04:20:33 pm by [Buddie] »
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2022, 05:12:26 pm »
Thank you, [...]. I do feel better now that I am on day 7 of my updose to 7.5mg.

I am not sure that I have understood the measure/ingest method. When you say:

At that point, instead of measuring 25mL and discarding it, you could obtain the same dose by measuring 25mL and ingesting it. 

How do you mean that the 25mL should be measured, then? Should it be drawn from the 50mL of diluted solution in five such iterations: draw 5mL with the 5mL syringe and pour it directly from the syringe into my mouth? This seems laborious.

(If so, then this method is interesting in that it is equivalent to preparing two batches at once, as only at most half of it is consumed at once. I do not know if the remaining solution can be kept for the next day, though I presume that it should be possible if it is stored under the same conditions as the prescription oral solution (away from light in a dry room, etc)).

EDIT: Warning: if your oral prescription solution is at 10mg / mL, DO NOT prepare under 50mL of diluted solution when you taper below 5mg diazepam, as suggested in the following paragraph, to ensure sufficient measurement accuracy. See [...]’ post: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=267260.msg3369558#msg3369558
However, because of the tense situation with the supply of prescription oral solution in my country for the time being, I am planning to reduce the amount of diluted solution prepared as I taper down, in steps of 10mL. For instance, at 2.5mg diazepam, I would not prepare 50mL of diluted solution (5mg diazepam) but 30mL instead (3mg diazepam) and thus discard only 0.5mg diazepam rather than 2mg. This reduces waste so it helps a bottle of prescription oral solution last longer.

Being excessively cautious, I also prefer to measure the amount of distilled water with the graduated cylinder every day (i.e. every time I prepare a batch). This is of course much more laborious than using a pre-marked meniscus on the mixing/drinking container. I know that I could update the meniscus mark every time I decrement by 10mL, but again, I would like to be precise.

One aspect of decrementing the amount of diluted solution I prepare in steps of 10mL that is less laborious than the measure/ingest method is that I have to use the 5mL syringe at most twice. Indeed, I need to remove at most 9mL (for instance if I wanted 4.1mg diazepam instead of 5mg.). In comparison, I would have to use the 5mL syringe five times to remove 26mL.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 07:15:38 am by [Buddie] »
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[Buddie]

Re: Valium 5mg titration - dry or liquid micro taper?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2022, 06:14:17 pm »
Quote
How do you mean that the 25mL should be measured, then? Should it be drawn from the 50mL of diluted solution in five such iterations: draw 5mL with the 5mL syringe and pour it directly from the syringe into my mouth?

Yes.

Measurement error would be reduced if you used a 10mL vs a 5mL syringe.
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