Author Topic: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper  (Read 723 times)

[Buddie]

Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« on: March 26, 2022, 08:25:03 pm »
Hi friends -

Iím on .25 klonopin and .5 Ativan.  I failed my klonopin liquid titration, going at 10% every two weeks, after getting to half the dose & holding.  Tried my best, but went into major withdrawals. 

What suggestions would you have to convert the .25 klonopin into a Valium substitution taper?  Iím on a dose below how the Ashton manual suggests crossing over, so donít know how to do the math.

Iíd also like the same information for how to crossover to Valium from .5 Ativan.

For both, Iíd like to do the 3x a day crossover until Iím fully on Valium.  And then hopefully just take Valium one time a day at night.

Thank you for your help 🙏🏻
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2022, 10:02:57 pm »
Am I understanding correctly that you reduced your Klonopin/clonazepam dose by 50% in just a little over 3 months?  That would be a taper rate of almost 17% a month. Have you considered trying to taper the clonazepam again using a slower taper rate?

I also wonder if you have considered tapering the Ativan/lorazepam first given that it has a shorter half-life than clonazepam?

Addendum:

[...] has asked another member an important question that applies to you as well: Is your prescriber willing to prescribe Valium/diazepam? (Not all prescribers are, especially those in the US.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 12:45:54 am by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2022, 10:36:33 pm »
I tapered the klonopin at what I thought was a 10% taper every 2 weeks.  Maybe the spreadsheet was wrong.

I havenít tried tapering the Ativan because I thought klonopin would be easier to do first since it has a longer half life.

I am not certain if my prescriber will go for a Valium crossover.  Especially after the klonopin disaster.

Iím still trying to recover from the withdrawals.  Iím not sure how long that is going to take. 
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2022, 01:03:25 am »
You mention Klonopin liquid titration, can you elaborate on that, did you have this compounded at a pharmacy or did you make your own, if so what method did you use?  Do you have a copy of your taper schedule you could share with us, if [...] is correct in her observation that you may have tapered at a rate far above what you thought, it would help us to see this.

Also, I agree with [...]'s suggestions to taper the Ativan first if you can't find a doctor to prescribe Valium. 

Lets keep talking so we can work this out.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2022, 12:16:58 am »
I used benzo.always data.net to figure out the taper plan.  To make the solution, I smashed 10 tablets of 0.25 dissolving klonopin in 5 ml of PG to 20 ml H2O to make 25 ml solution.  Then I withdrew the dose for that day.  For example, my first dose was 2.48 ml for a total dose of 0.2482.

Iím pretty sure I tapered at the 10% rate every 2 weeks.  When I got to 0.125 mg klonopin, I held with the lowest dose tablet that is dissolvable.  So, yes, between Sept 25 & Dec 3, I was at a 50% cut on klonopin.

I did not recognize my symptoms as withdrawal symptoms until it was too late & I ended up in the ER with my heart hurting.  I have a benign heart issue where my heart pounds all the time.  I noticed I had started losing my appetite.  In December, Jan, Feb, I held at 0.125 starting Dec. 3).  Then in Feb, I started ďshaking like a drug addictĒ, not knowing if I was real or where I was, not sleeping at all, constant chest pain, jaw hurting/teeth grinding & my jaws snapping shut like an alligator.

Although klonopin was reinstated about 2 weeks ago at original 0.25 mg, I am not back to prior taper baseline.  It is scaring me.  I am still basically eating nothing, & Iím really not one to exaggerate.  My frontal lobe aches.  I still canít think clearly.  My heart still hurts off & on, but is cleared by the cardiologist.  The other bizarre withdrawal symptoms subsided when my primary care doctor told me to reinstate the gummy.  I started a 5 mg THC cannabis gummy 4 days before I began the taper.  Iím hind sight, I think it masked the withdrawal symptoms.  So when I started tapering the gummy in January, I got hit full force

Iím open to any insight or expertise.  I do not know how to get out of the mess Iím in.  My body has to calm down some before I can try again & I need to be able to eat.

Curious why the recommendation would be to taper Ativan first.  I thought it has a faster half life & would be more difficult.

I do not know if my doctor will go for Valium taper.  I want the information for the crossover to at least present to her.  She seems to be of the camp that staying on the same med & tapering it is best, but Iím just hoping for something that might be easier on my body because of the longer half life, but realize things are rarely that simple.

I will add my poly drug mess into my signature.  Iím certain now that an estrogen patch is what kicked all this off with panic attacksÖ& then meds just kept being added instead of me listening to my intuition (& not the doctor) and ripping off the patch.

Thanks for listening.  Usually Iím not as wordy & more to the point, but Iím panicking & terrified.  Iím a single mom to a beautiful 15 year old & am emotionally unavailable to her.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2022, 12:24:19 am »
Okie Iím sorry for your predicament Iíve never seen or have experience with a 2 benzo to one crossover before but I can take a stab at it based on the Ashton manual
I donít know know if itís best to do one crossover at a time or both at the same time
Let me do some searches and see if anyone else has done this
[...] is very savy you can pm him and ask him if heís seen this before
[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2022, 01:37:42 am »
I would love any help I can get, [...].  It would be so appreciated.  I donít know if I need to look at 2 separate crossover taper plans, like klonopin to Valium & then Ativan to Valium and do them separatelyÖor if they could be combined. 
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2022, 01:42:17 am »
[...]:  Thank you for offering to help [...] by searching for members who have completed a two-benzos-to-one crossover. Your kindness and generosity toward other members is much appreciated.

[...]:  I am so sorry you are suffering but we will do our best to help you get back on steadier footing.  You have already made a major step forward by sharing more of your history with us.  The more we know, the better equipped we are to offer suggestions and assist with connecting you to relevant resources. 

Itís time for me to call it a night, so I must close for now.  However, I promise I will get back to you tomorrow.

In the interim, please know you are doing the right thing ó giving your body time to process and adjust to the changes its been through. 

Have you found any coping/calming techniques that work for you? For example, belly breathing has always worked amazingly well for me and is easy to learn/do.  Hereís a video I found helpful when I was learning it:

How to Breathe - Breathe2Relax
https://youtu.be/YdsipKCACac

Dr. Weilís 4-7-8 breathing technique also works well:
https://youtu.be/p8fjYPC-k2k
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2022, 02:32:10 am »
I just want to say that I appreciate you.  I appreciate those of you who open their hearts & arms to help those of us who are scared.  Itís hard for me to express how much it means to me, but I want you to know how appreciated you are.  Thank you for your kindness, your gentleness, your guidance & your time.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Valium Crossover Substitution Taper
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2022, 03:44:01 am »
I can answer one of your questions until [...] returns with her wisdom.

You asked why taper Ativan first. It's precisely for the reasons you mentioned. It has a shorter half-life and due to potential interdose withdrawal it's more difficult to taper. The rationale is while you're tapering Ativan youíll still have Klonopin in your system to counteract the short half-life. Klonopin is also much more potent so theoretically it should help make tapering Ativan easier if you taper the Ativan first. I hope I make sense.

I'm sorry you're in this mess. I am a mom too and know how difficult it is to do this and be present for your kids. Just know that everything will be okay.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.