Author Topic: Caught Between a Paradoxical Reaction and a Withdrawal. My Theory of Everything.  (Read 554 times)

[Buddie]

Caught Between a Paradox and Withdrawal.


Still just a theory, but with lots of reason and building evidence. It is not a "hypothesis". It is a theory.

In scientific reasoning, a hypothesis is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A theory on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data.


Two things are happening to people in so-called withdrawal. But it is important to see these two things as independent yet compounding events in those that have both.

1) The standard conventional withdrawal.

These types of withdrawals work well for taperers. People can even get off them with little to no problems if they are totally stable on the drug when they come off. I've done it myself in a matter of days (3 times prior to the abominable to come). Months of withdrawal, but it was never severe.

2) A reactive effect that literally does damage to the Central Nervous System that takes indefinite amounts of years to recover from. Occasionally it's permanent to a degree.

These types are actually not withdrawals They are "reactions", but they also include the standard withdrawal which happens simultaneously and compounds the problem like salt on an open wound.

People doing tapers during this are actually reacting more and more as they taper. And although the withdrawal may get some better as they reduce, the reaction continues on. The consequence of this is that people end up in protracted as the reaction is harder to recover from than is the actual withdrawal. Much harder. Also, they might spend more time tapering because they think that getting worse is a sign of the need to hold. Often years of trying to "hold" upon group advice.

Tapers usually make these people no better and sometimes dramatically backfire. People often mistake this for tolerance when it is actually a reaction that tends to build with the addition of more of the drug, and less so with less of the drug. Upping the dose may or may not help for a short period but would never get rid of the reaction. The reaction would continue to build. Lowering the dose would help "only" with the conventional withdrawal, but actually makes this long-term damage worse.

With this problem, taperers would be better in the long term with a cold-turkey or rapid taper, as it would leave less of a reactive state to recover from. However, the acute phase would be compounded as the pain etc from the reactive state is compounded by the loss of the positive effects of the drug as one heals a tad from the conventional withdrawal (the salt on the wound). Once the actual withdrawal is over, the protracted phase might go on for several years or more due to the damage from this reactive state.

The consequences of the reactive state:

The "much" larger problem here is the reactive state. If one remained in that reactive state for a very long period, the damage from the sensitivity of the reactive state might be nearly UNLIMITED.

This theory can help explain kindling as well. Kindling is a CONTINUATION of the reactive state, but only after that reactive state has been initiated. Each consecutive withdrawal would be intensified and take more time to heal from, and often MUCH MUCH longer.

Although reinstating may initially help, the reaction begins immediately, instead of delayed. The speed of the build in the reaction with a direct correlation to the addition of the amount of the drug intensifies and quicker sensitivity/damage becomes the norm. The result is typically a longer and more intense so-called withdrawal than the last, given that the amount of time back on the drug is not very limited. And often severely so.

This also explains the differences in the time it takes to heal. A cold turkey effect might produce longer-lasting protracted withdrawals only if the person had been reacting for a large portion of time beforehand. Even sometimes for years. In the case of taperers, they might be made worse from a "further" problem of tapering from this reactive state. Although they may or may not have an easier time getting off than a cold turkey (due to healing from the conventional withdrawal little by little instead of tossing all the salt on the open wound), the taper "Itself" may be an "ADDITION" to their reactive state, although less and less during the taper. So, as a result, these people may end up in a "several-year" withdrawal that may take much longer to recover from than many cold turkeys. And make all these other variables nearly trivial. 

As you can see, many of the phenomena here are explained that cannot be explained by current means.

1) Kindling
2) Why both taperers and cold turkeyers both end up in protracted.
3) Tapers are so unbelievably hard, especially near the end.

And much more...

The reason people get stuck on their tapers and "cannot go up" and "cannot go down" is the definition of "Being Caught Between A Paradoxical Reaction And The Withdrawal Itself"

The key observation here is "the people in these reactive states for the "longest time" and with the "fasting building reactions" in "so-called" tolerance, or on a taper, or both" would have the longest and likely most intense withdrawals regardless of cold turkey or taper. However, for some, a taper adds to the problem. And yet for those that weren't reacting heavily for months to years, a taper might certainly ease the acute stage allowing them to get off without a way more extreme withdrawal. Often is very minimal.

Consequently, a taper might actually "throw" a small percent into an extreme acute phase rather than cushioning it from the reductions. And this due to the direct damage from the reactive state.

If the theory is correct, "I DON'T AT ALL" suggest that everyone cold turkey, but I do suggest that people who were in tolerance and getting severe problems for many months or even years do not drag out their taper. The faster you get off, the better. But this is only true with "regard to safety". The acute stage would be a monster when combined with the damage done to the nerves via reaction. But avoiding the reaction might just keep one from a several-year, or worse withdrawal.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 10:22:22 am by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Hey 2b's

Long time  >:D

I read your post and to be candid, it was far more involved than my focus allows so I'm not sure whether the following is pertinant or not.  Speaking only for myself, in a nutshell, call it down regulate or something else, but I believe using Ativan, nightly  for many years slowed  down my own gaba production significantly. 

However the removal of that gaba product did not increase the production of/the gaba levels to go back to pre-benzo levels.  So, for me, there is damage to my original design. Which, for me, I believe may be permenant

Not sure what you call that or if or where that falls in your theory 

Hope you are doing ok  :)

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Hey 2b's

Long time  >:D

I read your post and to be candid, it was far more involved than my focus allows so I'm not sure whether the following is pertinant or not.  Speaking only for myself, in a nutshell, call it down regulate or something else, but I believe using Ativan, nightly  for many years slowed  down my own gaba production significantly. 

However the removal of that gaba product did not increase the production of/the gaba levels to go back to pre-benzo levels.  So, for me, there is damage to my original design. Which, for me, I believe may be permenant

"Not sure what you call that or if or where that falls in your theory" 

Hope you are doing ok  :)

[...]
How long were you messed up before you got off? If you could tell me that bit of info, maybe I could reply to how it might fit. Any Kindling? If so, were you in a bad way when you reinstated? Your decription seems to indicate you were sleeping less and less before you got off. Possibly having other problems, too?

If that's the case, can you tell me for about how long? Any updosing involved to try to ease that?

As for me,

Almost 9 years off now. It's usually less intense, but I'm still nowhere near recovered. I'm definitely healed a lot, but from where I came, there's a lot left to heal from.

Wise, how do you reply with quotes? It's been a long time since I have been on this site.

Thanks, buddy.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 07:33:56 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Looks like you got the quotes resolved  :)

I know the fact that I was put on Ativan to sleep at ever increasing amounts and it having a short life meant that pretty much from the start I was having inter-dose withdrawal for the duration of the ten years.  Perhaps that explains why my mornings continue to be so bad.   

Honestly, my real question isn't about long term people who had or are having problems but in fact, is about those people who were on long term and then had no problem getting off the drug or afterwards, however they got off. 
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

No, I didn't get quotes resolved. I meant only to quote a section of your text, not all of it. I actually put quotation marks around what I was trying to quote. How do you choose a piece of the text?

Yes, this is what I thought. It seems that the worst cases, and those are often my old friends from nearly a decade ago, or longer, that are still in w/d were in so-called tolerance before. Stories just like yours. I believe the dose was increased regularly to cover a "slow-building reaction", and not tolerance withdrawal as Ashton and many others describe and is supported by pseudoscientific receptor theory. The reason your PAWS is so bad is due to that reaction you think was tolerance. It sensitized you "directly" slowly. Then under the positive effects of updosing, that reaction was covered up more and more. But it slowly built up again. Each time you did this, you were covering up an even bigger beast. And then eventually, that beast could no longer be covered up. You then CT'd and had one of the largest beasts of all. That's why you are around 9 years off now and reporting that you don't think you'll ever heal. Good thing you didn't taper. I know the months off after the CT must have been much worse as it quickly released that beast, but it also probably extended the PAWS phase and made it worse.

You were caught between a paradoxical reaction and the standard withdrawal from the positive effects of that drug.

That's exactly what my theory states. Had you been Kindled, you likely would have exposed all this sooner. Kindling is just a continuation of that beast once back on. And it continues to grow at an even faster pace until there is nothing you can do to relieve anything. Up, down, doesn't matter. But the longer you stay on that stuff, the longer and more intense the recovery will be. You don't need to be kindled for that to happen though.

You on Facebook, Wise? I could use some "mo betta" friends lol.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

You got much of my story, but I did in fact taper.  Was put to valium and slow tapered off.  Valium never covered up the loss of ativan, but it did give me the opportunity to taper off.  Whether that was good or bad, or worse or better, all I know is that it sucked a lot. 

I do agree with you that the higher we go when we are in tolerance does just hide an ever worsening beast that when uncovered, is one if not the worst monster one can have residing in one's own heads. 

Not really on FB :(  But I posted in protracted today.  I'm better than I was in w/d, but accepting that  my CNS is pretty much as good as it's going to get.  Check it out if you want.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Can you just send me a link? I have not been on this site in years. That would be much easier. I don't think I plan to stay here, but who knows.

Much appreciated. :)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Not sure how long I'm here for.  Just went through some loss that I'm handling poorly so I think I'm just looking for familiar places to land for until I get me sea legs again.

This should take you there. Let me know if not.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=266539.0
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[Buddie]

Hey, Wise. I'll get back to this eventually. I have just been having less functionality. I also sent you a pm thinking you deleted everything, but you didn't. I just made the same post in protracted is all, and your replies are not on that one. Someone replied and your comments were gone, so I thought you deleted them. I'm not too active until this head and back clamp eases off some.

Just wanted to let you know. Thanks, bud!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

I am a firm believer in "medication spellbinding".

This often adds to the time sick and reacting to the drug after the reactive state has initiated. 

The doctor and patient believe this to be tolerance, when in fact it's not tolerance at all. It's an iatrogenic reactive state which continues to grow unbounded with medication spellbinding as the reactive states continue to grow. Often this is mistaken for tolerance. But tolerance is when the drug stops working, more than the reactive state. This is overlooked by the medical field's inability to recognize this effect. As well as the medical societies of the world to admit its existence due to what admittance means in a courtroom.

Without proof, the only thing that could be used in court is "admittance". And sending out medical literature or even a simple memo to doctors of the fact means the possibility of a lawsuit due to admittance.

Since profit to these drug companies is more important to the health of humanity, this medical literature, or even a memo will not be dished out to a single doctor.

But this only becomes a major problem once the "reactive state "has been initiated. Until then it is not a problem.
 
https://connect.springerpub.com/content/book/978-0-8261-0844-9/part/part01/chapter/ch09#:~:text=Abstract,highly%20uncharacteristic%20of%20the%20individual.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.