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using vodka or not when making liquid microtaper suspension from V and water?


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Hi again BB- so glad you are here.

 

I received supplies (syringes, containers) yesterday as I prepare to begin a microtapering trial. (felt overwhelming to my benzo brain - tearful ever since when not distracted....good grief!).

 

I am on 3.5 diazepam, once in the evening. Bob7 has graciously given me calculations and scheduling tips- thank you Bob7!

 

I would like things to be as simple as possible, so would like to hear if folks who only using water with their V found this adequate. Any problems associated would be much appreciated as well.

 

I have watched the video where the user makes a solution with only water, but her benzo is klonipin, I believe.

 

Thank you in advance,

Rascal

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Hi rascal, I just starteed the water titration and I have tried it both ways , just water and then with alcohol. When I used just the water the particles did not stay suspended for very long, I think that could be because I am only using 50ml of water in a small jar. The particles seemed to settle at the bottom very rapidly.  Next I tried it with the vodka and it dissolved very well, of course there are still a few particles but not like when using just water.  I think I am going to stick with the vodka and water to be on the safe side. I will also shake it up as if using a suspension right before I pull out the ML's.  Hope this helps. If you dont want to use alcohol you can use propylene glycol.You can buy it on line At Amazon or walmart....Walmart is cheaper.
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Hi gray cloud! Thanks for your quick response.

 

Is your benzo lorazepam? If so, I don't know if this responds differently than diazepam. Do you?

 

The details in your description are helpful to me, as I try and get my brain around it all.

 

I'm not worried about the vodka intake, but want simplicity if possible. Can you tell me how much you use or how to determine how much to use?

 

I'll look up propylen glycol as well.

 

Rascal

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wow, gray cloud- sounds like you've got a system. I hope things continue to go well!

 

Thank you for pitching in and replying to my post.

 

Rascal

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gray cloud: Thank you for lending a helping hand to rascal4ever.

 

rascal4ever: Different benzodiazepines have different solubilities in different solvents.  Might I encourage you to consult with members who have used the tablet/vodka/water approach with your particular benzodiazepine - i.e. diazepam?  Member oregonkatz comes to mind.  She has described her approach in multiple posts.  You can find them by using the search function in the main forum menu at the top left of the screen (NOT the search box in the upper right corner).  Try entering vodka and diazepam as keywords. In the ‘By user:’ field, enter her username (oregonkatz).

 

 

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following to see how it works with using vodka.  I know a member on here who closed his account said that he used a bit of vodka to dissolve his pills in since they didn't dissolve completely in just water.
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gray cloud: Thank you for lending a helping hand to rascal4ever.

 

rascal4ever: Different benzodiazepines have different solubilities in different solvents.  Might I encourage you to consult with members who have used the tablet/vodka/water approach with your particular benzodiazepine - i.e. diazepam?  Member oregonkatz comes to mind.  She has described her approach in multiple posts.  You can find them by using the search function in the main forum menu at the top left of the screen (NOT the search box in the upper right corner).  Try entering vodka and diazepam as keywords. In the ‘By user:’ field, enter her username (oregonkatz).

 

 

 

thanks for this, Libertas: I see now that I may have stepped into significant conflict, which I did not intend to do.

 

Your reply also helped me to grasp a better way to search that I did not know existed. Searching has been SO frustrating- thanks for this as well.

 

Do you believe I would be better off asking oregonkatz directly or going by what she has already said (by search) so as to not open that can of nasty worms again?

 

gratefully, Rascal

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I’m glad you found my search suggestion helpful.  I’ve included a link below to yet another way to search the forum.

 

Re: your question about contacting oregonkatz to request information about her tapering approach ...

 

(1) Per forum guidelines, we ask members to refrain from using the PM (Personal Message) system to request taper information/advice from other community members. The rationale for this is explained in the guideline. (My signature includes a link to the guideline.)

 

(2) oregonkatz has included the following request in her signature:

 

NO TAPER ADVICE VIA PMs

 

PS Please don’t be concerned about stepping into a conflict. Members are allowed to post pretty much whatever they want as long as it adheres to our guidelines. In other words, we do not fact-check member content.  This is why it’s important to get input and feedback from as many members as possible as well as to consult credible external resources when planning your taper.

 

Link:

Search Benzo Buddies Using Google, Bing, or DuckDuckGo

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=251991.0

 

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One way to get a specific member to give you advice is to send them a PM with the link to your thread and ask if they'd please respond to your question on the thread.  :thumbsup:
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Jelly Baby!

 

That’s precisely what I wanted to know (I knew it wasn’t ok to ask for tapering advice directly via PM). I’ll try what you suggested.

 

Thank you,

Rascal

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FWIW...I started with vodka and although I was assured that the particulate at the bottom were merely remnants of manufacturing and not actual medication...I couldn't get past it and had not enough confidence in my dosing.  I switched to propylene glycol and used it for such a short time I honest don't recall why I didn't like it.  I think there was still a lot of stuff at the bottom as well.  I finally settled on a 50/50 OraPlus Ora-Sweet suspension prepared in 80ml tinted bottles with syringe adapters suggested by slownsteady.  At my current dose, I just prepare what I need for each week.  So far, so good.  Good luck.
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So here's what I did, rascal.

 

At about 3 mgs of valium I decided to do a DLMT reduction. I'd been really sick with s/x doing cut and hold, so decided to make things easy on myself after 3 mgs by reducing .01 mgs of valium a day all the way to zero.

 

Let's say I was at Day 1  of 3 mgs. I ingested a 2 mg valium tablet as a pill, then "liquefied" 1 mg (half a 2 mg pill) by dropping it into a 100 ml beaker, adding 1 ml of vodka, waiting for about 10 minutes, then  adding 99 mls of water. I swished it around a little. Then I syringed 1 ml out of the water/vodka/valium mixture, tossed it down the sink, and drank the rest. Day 2 I did the same thing but syringed 2 mls out of the mixture, threw that away and drank the rest. And so on.

 

This method wastes valium, but I didn't give a hoot -- my friendly NP kept me well supplied with valium. Also I was about brain-dead and couldn't figure out another way to do my reductions. This simple-minded method worked for me. It took me 100 days to reduce  each 1 mg of valium. But, I believe, because I was removing such a tiny amount daily, I had minimal s/x. I continued to work all throughout the last part of my taper.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Katz

 

P.S You could use 2 mls of vodka if you prefer. I used 1 and things seemed to be fine. Two might give you more peace of mind.

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So here's what I did, rascal.

 

At about 3 mgs of valium I decided to do a DLMT reduction. I'd been really sick with s/x doing cut and hold, so decided to make things easy on myself after 3 mgs by reducing .01 mgs of valium a day all the way to zero.

 

Let's say I was at Day 1  of 3 mgs. I ingested a 2 mg valium tablet as a pill, then "liquefied" 1 mg (half a 2 mg pill) by dropping it into a 100 ml beaker, adding 1 ml of vodka, waiting for about 10 minutes, then  adding 99 mls of water. I swished it around a little. Then I syringed 1 ml out of the water/vodka/valium mixture, tossed it down the sink, and drank the rest. Day 2 I did the same thing but syringed 2 mls out of the mixture, threw that away and drank the rest. And so on.

 

This method wastes valium, but I didn't give a hoot -- my friendly NP kept me well supplied with valium. Also I was about brain-dead and couldn't figure out another way to do my reductions. This simple-minded method worked for me. It took me 100 days to reduce  each 1 mg of valium. But, I believe, because I was removing such a tiny amount daily, I had minimal s/x. I continued to work all throughout the last part of my taper.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Katz

 

P.S You could use 2 mls of vodka if you prefer. I used 1 and things seemed to be fine. Two might give you more peace of mind.

thank you, Oregonkatz,

 

I, too, feel very sick with s/x since reaching 3.5 of diazepam. Can't seem to get out of a wave. My pattern of having a very hard time but them becoming stable disappeared around 4 mg. I was starting to experience what I believe some call windows as well. Not any more.

 

I want to wait until 3mg to do (what sounds like) a straightforward DLMT over either 300 or 150 days, but I'm not stabilizing. (plus, I could get into the under 3 "club" ha ha ). Of course, reading the varied opinions about micro-tapering and anticipating the switch has raised my anxiety and stress level. I continue to work, but that's about all I can manage.

 

Enough of my complaining.

 

I hadn't thought about mixing tablets with liquid, but it sounds simple, indeed.

 

Did you find the vodka left insolubles  (sp) or other residue in the mix that you needed to work with?

 

Thanks again for responding to my message. It's quite helpful to hear from people who found the DLMT useful (and even better than cut and hold at the small amounts).

 

Rascal

 

 

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fyi, I chose 3 mgs of valium to start my DLMT because I could see that the taper would be easy in terms of math for me from then on, and also because I was at then end of my rope with cut and hold.

 

To answer this question:

 

Did you find the vodka left insolubles  (sp) or other residue in the mix that you needed to work with?

 

The tiny white particles that remain after you dissolve your valium tab in vodka, then add water, will never dissolve. They are indeed insolubles -- they are the binders and fillers that hold the pill together. Just try not to worry about them. They aren't harboring "hidden valium". Your valium has been dissolved in the vodka and is now in your solution.

 

I hear you about not feeling stable enough to start your DLMT. Maybe wait a  bit longer  until you feel stronger?  Really, there's no rush.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Katz

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thanks for perspective on the residue. I had suspected that would be the case, but wanted your personal experience.

 

It true that I don't feel I'm in a stable place to begin the taper, but I'm loosing patience and worried I've developed relative tolerance.

 

I may have misunderstood, but did you say you had also been in a symptom laden place when you began your micro-tapering (been "really sick with" cut and hold)?.

 

Perhaps I have some magical thinking going on-hoping that DLMT will provide the relief I'm not getting. I'm aware I do not believe I am making "progress" as I haven't made a cut in a while yet am suffering more than (I hope) is necessary. Yes- my suffering was much worse last year. I am weary.

 

Thank you, oregonkatz.

Rascal

 

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I was pretty sick with my s/x rascal, when I got down to 3 mgs. I suffered from the usual suspects: akathisia, headaches, dizziness, ear pain, insomnia, bad stomach/no appetite, incredible depression and despair, but figured what the heck, I'd just start my DLMT. To my surprise, I felt better after a few weeks. My s/x diminished quite a bit. Things became tolerable. I could even work a little. I didn't catastrophize quite as much. (And they remained that way until I reached zero after which my s/x began to trickle away).

 

Cut and hold was so awful for me -- I hadn't realized how awful until I made a change. I'm not saying this is how things will go for you, just telling you how things went for me. I certainly hope that you feel better on a DLMT. If you need to wait awhile to start your taper, do that.

 

I completely "get it" that you are weary. I was too -- I spent 3 plus miserable years tapering. It felt like a life sentence. But, eventually, it was over. Whew.

 

Best to you,

 

Katz

 

 

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Rascal,

I'm in the same boat as you at 3.5mg/day and feeling more sxs than I would like, but not sure if I'm in tolerance and just have to push through. I, however, just started my taper.

 

I'm following this thread because I, too, am looking for the right DT method and support!

 

 

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OregonKatz - thanks for all this valuable information! I have a few questions, too ...

 

Did you just dose 1X/day?

 

And is it true that PG can be used in place of vodka?

 

And what might this look like if Rascal or I wanted to start now, at 3.5mg? Would we start with 350 ml?

 

I'm trying to get a sense of how fast or how slow to go - a year seems like a long time to cut 3.5mg because a) I'm not sure my prescribing doc will go for that; b) I am at the point that I think the drug might be making me a bit sick; and c) I'm on mirtazapine to help with w/d and would prefer not to stay on it for a whole year.

 

If you have any thoughts on any of this, based on experience, I'd be so appreciative!

 

 

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Yes I dosed  1X a day when I got down to 3 mgs.

 

No, PG cannot be used "in place of vodka". PG will not make a solution. But you certainly can use PG to make a  suspension. (I would prefer not to debate the advantages of solution over suspension here). I chose something (vodka) that would allow me to make a true solution. But there are a couple of alternatives if you want to make a suspension: PG, OraPlus, full fat milk come to my mind.

 

Sure, if you didn't want to mix pills and liquid, you could take 3.5mgs of valium, drop the pills into a couple mls of vodka in a suitable sized beaker (I don't know if there are 350 ml beakers -- maybe there are 400 ml ones), add water up to the 350 ml mark,  and start reducing. Easy peasy.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Katz

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OregonKatz - Right, that makes sense to use pills for part of it and liquid for the rest.

Thanks so much!

 

Good luck, Rascal, and stay in touch with how it goes!

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Openroad- good to hear from you and yes, we sound in similar places, at least in terms of how to proceed.

 

Do you have a sense on which you’ll do (tabs + solution or all solution) or when you’ll begin?

 

I’m considering the 150 day plan that Bob7 outlined. I’ve followed Ashton step by step since March of 2021, and don’t want another year of this. It’s been harder than I can describe. I crossed over from Klonipin first, then cam off a high dose of diazepam.

 

Depending on what we’re each doing, it could be nice to follow each other/share experiences.

 

I will most likely start in a week - depends on how I feel through this weekend. I will dose once/day in the evening.

 

Rascal

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Rascal,

 

Yes, let's keep in touch and do this together as best as we can!

I'm having a lot of trouble deciding on how fast or slow to go (150 vs. 300 days, for instance). What is guiding you in that decision?

 

And I'm concerned that if I want to change speeds midway, I will somehow muck it up - like if 150 is feeling too fast, how do you slow down? Do you just add water? (I have three degrees in literature, and this simple math is confounding my benzo brain.)

 

I think I'd like to do pills and liquid to start. I'd like to do that .5 in liquid, the rest in pills, and see how it goes. If I want to do the .5 in the span of three weeks, I suppose I just use 21 ml of liquid for 21 days, right? :)

 

I still can't believe this is my (our) daily reality! Feel free to PM me, as well! I am going to start likely in a week or so. I'm hoping the current sxs from my last cut will calm down a bit more first. Not feeling great ATM.

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Openroad

 

I too have a lot of post graduate education (a PhD) but not able to grasp the math - never been my strong suite but especially with benzo brain.  This is why I asked Bob7 to create a plan for me. I think you may have seen it. It’s not in this thread, but in the former one you stepped away from (you didn’t want to “take it over”- although you weren’t!)

 

I’m wanting to start the 150 days because 300 days more for me fatigues me to even think about. In June of this year, I will have been suffering for 2 years. Over 1 more seems too much, frankly.

 

Bob suggested, however, to start with the 300, listen to my body for about a month, and then switch to the faster plan if all is going ok. Perhaps that’s wiser. I’ll think about it a bit more.

 

I don’t yet know how I’ll switch if 150 days is too fast- will probably ask Bob7 to recalculate for me (unless I begin to catch on with experience).

 

These are my thoughts today, which, BTW, has gone better than yesterday. I’ll take it :)

 

Rascal

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[28...]

Hi!

 

I wanted to share a bit of my perspective regarding water suspensions.  I'm generally positive about people doing DLMT using water suspensions, but there's a lot about them that we have no 'hard' science for. 

 

For example - we don't really know the state of the mixture when it's fully made (pill + vodka - mix + water - mix).  It's certainly not a true "solution" whether made with alcohol or PG, but it could be a fairly stable suspension - perhaps even a highly stable colloidal suspension.  We don't know with certainty.  The hardness of the water you use might very well affect the stability.  The container itself might bind some of the drug during storage.  So we can't say with precision or confidence how long these mixtures will last.

 

So I want to encourage you to keep notes about what you do and how it seems to work for you.  If you make a week's worth of mixture and you feel worse on day 4 or 5, then perhaps that mixture is only stable for 3 days.  Again - I wish we had all of the data to give you complete answers, but we don't.

 

Personally - I favor using some alcohol to initially dissolve the drug (before adding the water).  I did a little experiment once using a dye with similar solubility properties to many benzos and initially dissolving the dye in alcohol improved overall dispersion significantly.  Again - not a definitive experiment, but consistent with predictions. 

 

I also think that using alcohol helps to liberate the drug from the pill's insoluble matrix.  We don't know exactly which 'inert ingredients' a manufacturer has used to make a pill so again no definitive studies.  But in theory, using vodka initially should help to get the ingredients better separated from one another.

 

PG is usable, but it takes longer to get the drug dissolved in it because it's kind of viscous.  Alcohol (vodka) is much easier to use.

 

Hope this info is useful.

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