Jump to content

dry cutting?


[ra...]

Recommended Posts

(I had posted this question to Joeb yesterday who wisely asked that I post it here as I am asking for tapering advice- please forgive and redirect if this should go even somewhere else)

 

You replied to me a couple of weeks ago when I was considering switching to liquid diazepam. Since then, I've been holding at 3.5mg D and waiting for a more stable stabilization ....(last week was good, this one starting out less so).

 

I find I am overwhelmed by the liquid formulations and doing all the calculations. So, I bought a scale and good quality files, and am considering tapering with cutting tablets this way.

 

I find half a miligram per month is too fast and painful at this point. Did you? And am I reading it right that you are now going down .25mg at a time? If so, how is it going?

 

Also, can you tell me how you obtain .25mg of the tablet (if that's what you are doing), or point me to someone who has experience doing so? May I could stomach .25 cuts- not sure as it's certainly getting harder and me more fatigued of it all.

 

If there is a way to get ever smaller cuts to the tablets, I hope that someone can weigh in. Thanks BB!

 

Glad to see you're still moving along,

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rascal4ever,

 

I've asked a member who I think knows more about this to check in with you.  Fingers crossed you will get some help soon!  I did a liquid taper at the end when my dose got small like yours is so I am not skilled at the file/weigh method.

 

Kate08

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rascal4ever,

 

I've asked a member who I think knows more about this to check in with you.  Fingers crossed you will get some help soon!  I did a liquid taper at the end when my dose got small like yours is so I am not skilled at the file/weigh method.

 

Kate08

 

thanks so much, Kate08 !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(I had posted this question to Joeb yesterday who wisely asked that I post it here as I am asking for tapering advice- please forgive and redirect if this should go even somewhere else)

 

You replied to me a couple of weeks ago when I was considering switching to liquid diazepam. Since then, I've been holding at 3.5mg D and waiting for a more stable stabilization ....(last week was good, this one starting out less so).

 

I find I am overwhelmed by the liquid formulations and doing all the calculations. So, I bought a scale and good quality files, and am considering tapering with cutting tablets this way.

 

I find half a miligram per month is too fast and painful at this point. Did you? And am I reading it right that you are now going down .25mg at a time? If so, how is it going?

 

Also, can you tell me how you obtain .25mg of the tablet (if that's what you are doing), or point me to someone who has experience doing so? May I could stomach .25 cuts- not sure as it's certainly getting harder and me more fatigued of it all.

 

If there is a way to get ever smaller cuts to the tablets, I hope that someone can weigh in. Thanks BB!

 

Glad to see you're still moving along,

Rascal

hi rascal Liquid is really easy and much better than cutting and weighing tablets. If your in the US they make a pharmacy liquid which does not need to be diluted. It’s definitely worth a try. Some buddies have an issue where it doesn’t agree with them it made me nauseous so after trying it for a week I gave up. I probably should have stuck with it. I recommend you try it it can make tapering much easier. If you decide I or other bbs can send you what’s needed like oral syringes and medicine bottle cap adapters it sounds complicated bits it’s very easy

To your other questions I cut the 2mg tablets using a pill cutter from Amazon here’s a link https://www.amazon.com/EqualSplit-Splitter-Crafted-Medical-Aluminum/dp/B07MH6XTL7/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?keywords=pill+cutter&qid=1643736093&sr=8-12

I’ve been doing .25 cuts by shaving off the half of 2mg tablet which is 1 mg and weighing it so it’s 75 % of the weight of the 1 mg half if that makes sense. The problem is that once I get to .5mg doses  I will need to try liquid again since I dose 3 times a day and cutting below .5 is very hard. Other buddies will chime in here and provide some other comments. I’ll add more in a bit not feeling well this morning

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi rascal4ever,

 

Kate08 asked me to help you.

 

I can help you use a scale and do all the math to do dry cutting.

 

However, before we do it all, I want to say, I agree with Joeb, you should try a liquid taper first.  I only recommend dry tapering after failing the liquid method.

 

Perhaps you are concerned about using a teaspoon of vodka to dissolve your benzo?  It is best to do that, but if you stir the liquid very hard, many people can skip the vodka step.

 

Here is the simplest liquid instructions I have seen:

 

All that said, if you don't want to do liquids, then I can collect some data from you and we can talk about dry tapering with a scale.

 

Bob

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(I had posted this question to Joeb yesterday who wisely asked that I post it here as I am asking for tapering advice- please forgive and redirect if this should go even somewhere else)

 

You replied to me a couple of weeks ago when I was considering switching to liquid diazepam. Since then, I've been holding at 3.5mg D and waiting for a more stable stabilization ....(last week was good, this one starting out less so).

 

I find I am overwhelmed by the liquid formulations and doing all the calculations. So, I bought a scale and good quality files, and am considering tapering with cutting tablets this way.

 

I find half a miligram per month is too fast and painful at this point. Did you? And am I reading it right that you are now going down .25mg at a time? If so, how is it going?

 

Also, can you tell me how you obtain .25mg of the tablet (if that's what you are doing), or point me to someone who has experience doing so? May I could stomach .25 cuts- not sure as it's certainly getting harder and me more fatigued of it all.

 

If there is a way to get ever smaller cuts to the tablets, I hope that someone can weigh in. Thanks BB!

 

Glad to see you're still moving along,

Rascal

hi rascal Liquid is really easy and much better than cutting and weighing tablets. If your in the US they make a pharmacy liquid which does not need to be diluted. It’s definitely worth a try. Some buddies have an issue where it doesn’t agree with them it made me nauseous so after trying it for a week I gave up. I probably should have stuck with it. I recommend you try it it can make tapering much easier. If you decide I or other bbs can send you what’s needed like oral syringes and medicine bottle cap adapters it sounds complicated bits it’s very easy

To your other questions I cut the 2mg tablets using a pill cutter from Amazon here’s a link https://www.amazon.com/EqualSplit-Splitter-Crafted-Medical-Aluminum/dp/B07MH6XTL7/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?keywords=pill+cutter&qid=1643736093&sr=8-12

I’ve been doing .25 cuts by shaving off the half of 2mg tablet which is 1 mg and weighing it so it’s 75 % of the weight of the 1 mg half if that makes sense. The problem is that once I get to .5mg doses  I will need to try liquid again since I dose 3 times a day and cutting below .5 is very hard. Other buddies will chime in here and provide some other comments. I’ll add more in a bit not feeling well this morning

Hi rascal4ever,

 

Kate08 asked me to help you.

 

I can help you use a scale and do all the math to do dry cutting.

 

However, before we do it all, I want to say, I agree with Joeb, you should try a liquid taper first.  I only recommend dry tapering after failing the liquid method.

 

Perhaps you are concerned about using a teaspoon of vodka to dissolve your benzo?  It is best to do that, but if you stir the liquid very hard, many people can skip the vodka step.

 

Here is the simplest liquid instructions I have seen:

 

All that said, if you don't want to do liquids, then I can collect some data from you and we can talk about dry tapering with a scale.

 

Bob

 

 

Thanks to both of you for these responses.

 

My concern has not been about the vodka, it's been about measuring the dilution correctly, and the fact that I've only been taking my dose at bedtime (as opposed to 3 times daily which is what I THINK most people do?).

 

Also, I've not felt that I can take less each day, given my recent (perceived) need to hold for weeks each time I make a cut. This has been truly since getting below 4-5 mg of Valium (I've been a very long term user as prescribed- over 35 years- this may be why I'm so sensitive).

 

Can either of you tell me about the need to measure and/or the US liquid form? Also, why it is that 3X daily seems to be the norm?

 

I remain grateful to you- this is such a painful process that I began in March of last year. I didn't know how reliant I'd be at the lower doses and it's reassuring to see folks who know the ropes.

 

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not think 3X is the norm.

I liked to take all my benzo at bedtime to help with sleep.

I felt if I could get enough sleep, I could handle the daytime symptoms.

 

It is up to you but I have found many people do better with a micro change each day (this is a liquid taper like shown in the video link sent to you).

However, others like to cut 5 or 10% (liquid or dry) and then hold that reduction for 2 weeks or until the symptoms are tolerable, whichever is longer.

 

So you first question.  Do you want to do a micro daily taper or reduce a large percent and hold?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Thanks to both of you for these responses.

 

My concern has not been about the vodka, it's been about measuring the dilution correctly, and the fact that I've only been taking my dose at bedtime (as opposed to 3 times daily which is what I THINK most people do?).

 

Also, I've not felt that I can take less each day, given my recent (perceived) need to hold for weeks each time I make a cut. This has been truly since getting below 4-5 mg of Valium (I've been a very long term user as prescribed- over 35 years- this may be why I'm so sensitive).

 

Can either of you tell me about the need to measure and/or the US liquid form? Also, why it is that 3X daily seems to be the norm?

 

I remain grateful to you- this is such a painful process that I began in March of last year. I didn't know how reliant I'd be at the lower doses and it's reassuring to see folks who know the ropes.

 

Rascal

rascal bob7 is much more experienced than me so I suggest following his lead. To answer your question I only dose 3 times a day because that’s what I did with the Ativan and just kept it to keep things simple. Sometimes changing doses can cause wd. Sometimes people change doses to lower the interdose wd which usually doesn’t happen with Valium but sometimes buddies need to split doses to help with that. Everyone is different. Pharmacy liquid usually comes in 5mg/5ml which is the same as 1mg/1ml so there’s no need to dilute it. ml’s are easily measured on a syringe

I suggest deciding which way to go answer bob7s question and he will guide you to the way to do it.

Lower doses seem to have more wd difficulty from reading the forum and has been the case with me. You just need to go slower and or reduce less.

Joeb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not think 3X is the norm.

I liked to take all my benzo at bedtime to help with sleep.

I felt if I could get enough sleep, I could handle the daytime symptoms.

 

It is up to you but I have found many people do better with a micro change each day (this is a liquid taper like shown in the video link sent to you).

However, others like to cut 5 or 10% (liquid or dry) and then hold that reduction for 2 weeks or until the symptoms are tolerable, whichever is longer.

 

So you first question.  Do you want to do a micro daily taper or reduce a large percent and hold?

 

Hi bob7 and thanks for this.

 

I am frightened of a daily shift, as each cut I've made has been quite difficult, especially with these lower doses. I am interested to hear how your daily (nightly) tapering when for you, with regard with symptoms. It's good to hear you managed without the 3X daily routine.

 

Also, how did you manage sleep (or, more to the point: did the down dosing effect your sleep?

 

If I can work up the courage, then I would like to try the liquid (yikes),

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rascal, I did a slow liquid water taper of my last 0.5mg of Klonopin and I did fine with it.  I know how scary all of this is since I was afraid also.  It is only in hindsight that I know this but it was much easier than I anticipated. 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rascal, I did a slow liquid water taper of my last 0.5mg of Klonopin and I did fine with it.  I know how scary all of this is since I was afraid also.  It is only in hindsight that I know this but it was much easier than I anticipated. 

 

thank you, Kate08! - this is reassuring. Would you mind telling me how long it took you? Also, when did you feel "stabilized"- OR did you FEEL each micro taper??  (Thanks again for letting me know your experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rascal,

 

My last 3 months doing a micro taper worked well.  I mean, when I was doing 1/8 of a pill reduction and holding, it worked well too UNTIL it stopped working.  When you cut large and hold, I think you reach a point where all the cuts catch up to you.

 

I think most people tolerate a micro reduction each day better. 

 

It does take courage to try each method but remember, you can always stop and do another method.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you in the US?  Is your prescriber willing to prescribe the 5mg/5mL oral solution of diazepam?  This is the preferred dosage form if you wish to maximize the likelihood of getting an accurate dose. Why? The FDA-approved diazepam solution is a true solution —  each and every milliliter of the liquid contains exactly the same amount of drug.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of you have been quite helpful to me at this point.  :smitten:

 

Bob7- could you help me draw up a microtapering schedule from 3.5 mg diazepam? (i'm not sure I'm asking that correctly). I believe you are already helping another (or plural!), and I refuse to ask too much. Also, I'm not in a rush nor having a terrible time at the moment. An alternative way you might help is to send me links to such schedules and/or places on the forum where people explain how to create them. I don't navigate BB very well and found the link to the you tube video super helpful.

 

Finally, what syringe do BBs recommend? I will most likely use water.

 

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will assume you want to microtaper a tiny bit every day for 300 days and be done.

 

I suggest you start with this 300 day plan.  If you are doing real well after a month, we can talk about speeding it up.  But start slowly.

 

Each morning, put your 3.5mg diazepam in a jar.

Optional - add one teaspoon of vodka to cover the pill and let it soak in for a moment.

Add 300 mL of water.

Close the jar lid and shake well.

 

On day 1, remove 1 mL and drink the rest

On day 2, remove 2 mL and drink the rest

On day 3, remove 3 mL and drink the rest

and so on.

 

You can drink a little throughout the day or save much of it for bedtime to make sure you sleep well.

 

When you finish it, add water to the empty jar and swirl and then drink that water too.

 

Here is a link for 10 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/10ml-Syringe-Sterile-BH-SUPPLIES/dp/B07KQP69RG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1L4K31V2A0801&keywords=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758717&sprefix=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-3

 

Here is a link for 100 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/BSTEAN-Individual-Scientific-Measurement-Household/dp/B08312MWV5/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2B626CO1WEST&keywords=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758792&sprefix=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-2

 

You should get both to make your life easier.

 

You should also keep a journal.  Record where you are in terms of mL in the jar.  Also record your symptoms.  Also record your life events/stress for the day.  I think you will find your symptoms are impacted by life stress as much as tapering.  If you need to hold at a certain mL, that is fine.  Hold until your symptoms are tolerable and the continue.

 

May God be with you.

 

Bob

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rascal, I did a slow liquid water taper of my last 0.5mg of Klonopin and I did fine with it.  I know how scary all of this is since I was afraid also.  It is only in hindsight that I know this but it was much easier than I anticipated. 

 

thank you, Kate08! - this is reassuring. Would you mind telling me how long it took you? Also, when did you feel "stabilized"- OR did you FEEL each micro taper??  (Thanks again for letting me know your experience.

 

rascal, I did my slow taper much like how Bob7 is recommending - by removing an increasing amount of liquid each day from that day's mixture.  It took me about two months to finish the taper this way.  I didn't have any symptoms and no, I didn't feel each microtaper.  Bob7 has outlined an excellent plan and I hope you will give it a try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will assume you want to microtaper a tiny bit every day for 300 days and be done. Thanks for this, Bob. It does, however, seem like too  long a time. I suppose I'll wait and see how it goes, like you say.

 

I suggest you start with this 300 day plan.  If you are doing real well after a month, we can talk about speeding it up.  But start slowly. Got it!

 

What do you think about the advantages/disadvantages of dissolving the tablets versus using prescribed liquid diazepam?

Each morning, put your 3.5mg diazepam in a jar.

Optional - add one teaspoon of vodka to cover the pill and let it soak in for a moment.

Add 300 mL of water.

Close the jar lid and shake well.

 

On day 1, remove 1 mL and drink the rest

On day 2, remove 2 mL and drink the rest

On day 3, remove 3 mL and drink the rest

and so on.

 

You can drink a little throughout the day or save much of it for bedtime to make sure you sleep well.

 

When you finish it, add water to the empty jar and swirl and then drink that water too.

 

Here is a link for 10 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/10ml-Syringe-Sterile-BH-SUPPLIES/dp/B07KQP69RG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1L4K31V2A0801&keywords=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758717&sprefix=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-3

 

Here is a link for 100 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/BSTEAN-Individual-Scientific-Measurement-Household/dp/B08312MWV5/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2B626CO1WEST&keywords=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758792&sprefix=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-2

 

You should get both to make your life easier.

 

You should also keep a journal.  Record where you are in terms of mL in the jar.  Also record your symptoms.  Also record your life events/stress for the day.  I think you will find your symptoms are impacted by life stress as much as tapering.  If you need to hold at a certain mL, that is fine.  Hold until your symptoms are tolerable and the continue. yes- I do keep a record/journal but i will make this one even tighter

 

May God be with you.

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rascal, I did a slow liquid water taper of my last 0.5mg of Klonopin and I did fine with it.  I know how scary all of this is since I was afraid also.  It is only in hindsight that I know this but it was much easier than I anticipated. 

 

thank you, Kate08! - this is reassuring. Would you mind telling me how long it took you? Also, when did you feel "stabilized"- OR did you FEEL each micro taper??  (Thanks again for letting me know your experience.

 

rascal, I did my slow taper much like how Bob7 is recommending - by removing an increasing amount of liquid each day from that day's mixture.  It took me about two months to finish the taper this way.  I didn't have any symptoms and no, I didn't feel each microtaper.  Bob7 has outlined an excellent plan and I hope you will give it a try.

 

Thanks, Kate08- this is especially good to hear. One more thing- did you start out even with the super slow (like Bob is suggesting- (your two months sounds SO much better than over a year) or was it that your dosage was that much lower than mine?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rascal,

I see you started to reply but there is no text in your message. Just FYI.

 

Hi Bob7- I put a few thoughts/questions in bold inside a quote of your messaged plan for me. These show up in my feed. Not yours?

 

I will try and re-post the whole thing.

 

thank you for being here,

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will assume you want to microtaper a tiny bit every day for 300 days and be done. Thanks for this, Bob. It does, however, seem like too  long a time. I suppose I'll wait and see how it goes, like you say.

 

I suggest you start with this 300 day plan.  If you are doing real well after a month, we can talk about speeding it up.  But start slowly. Got it!

 

What do you think about the advantages/disadvantages of dissolving the tablets versus using prescribed liquid diazepam?

Each morning, put your 3.5mg diazepam in a jar.

Optional - add one teaspoon of vodka to cover the pill and let it soak in for a moment.

Add 300 mL of water.

Close the jar lid and shake well.

 

On day 1, remove 1 mL and drink the rest

On day 2, remove 2 mL and drink the rest

On day 3, remove 3 mL and drink the rest

and so on.

 

You can drink a little throughout the day or save much of it for bedtime to make sure you sleep well.

 

When you finish it, add water to the empty jar and swirl and then drink that water too.

 

Here is a link for 10 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/10ml-Syringe-Sterile-BH-SUPPLIES/dp/B07KQP69RG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1L4K31V2A0801&keywords=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758717&sprefix=10+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C80&sr=8-3

 

Here is a link for 100 mL syringes:  https://smile.amazon.com/BSTEAN-Individual-Scientific-Measurement-Household/dp/B08312MWV5/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2B626CO1WEST&keywords=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle&qid=1643758792&sprefix=100+ml+syringes+sterile+no+needle%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-2

 

You should get both to make your life easier.

 

You should also keep a journal.  Record where you are in terms of mL in the jar.  Also record your symptoms.  Also record your life events/stress for the day.  I think you will find your symptoms are impacted by life stress as much as tapering.  If you need to hold at a certain mL, that is fine.  Hold until your symptoms are tolerable and the continue. yes- I do keep a record/journal but i will make this one even tighter

 

May God be with you.

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rascal,

To your questions in bold.

(1) Yes, 300 days is a long time.  If you want to cut the time in half, then fill the jar with only 150mL of water instead of 300 mL.

(2) The advantage of using prescribed liquid is I think it is fair to say less work on your part and if you are not using vodka, they will have a real solution.  Note, you can make a real solution, but only if you use a little vodka.  If you do not use the vodka and do not use the pharmacy, then you have a suspension.  A suspension is usually good enough if you shake very well before use.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Kate08- this is especially good to hear. One more thing- did you start out even with the super slow (like Bob is suggesting- (your two months sounds SO much better than over a year) or was it that your dosage was that much lower than mine?

 

 

Rascal - to answer your question above, I mixed my last 0.5mg of clonazepam in 50ml of water and reduced the mixture 1 ml per day for 50 days (took 49 ml day 1, 48 ml day 2, etc) until I was finished.  I did not hold on any of the days but of course you can if you need to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thanks, Kate08- this is especially good to hear. One more thing- did you start out even with the super slow (like Bob is suggesting- (your two months sounds SO much better than over a year) or was it that your dosage was that much lower than mine?

 

 

Rascal - to answer your question above, I mixed my last 0.5mg of clonazepam in 50ml of water and reduced the mixture 0.1ml per day for 50 days until I was finished.  I did not hold on any of the days but of course you can if you need to.

 

Thanks, Kate. It sure looks as if I can make it in several months (versus a year). I've followed Ashton methodically, even crossing over to v. That is, Up until these smaller doses where I am fatigued of it all as well as finding it less straightfoward. I realize this was to be expected.

 

I'm happy for you to be done, and hope you are doing quite well !

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Rascal,

To your questions in bold.

(1) Yes, 300 days is a long time.  If you want to cut the time in half, then fill the jar with only 150mL of water instead of 300 mL.

(2) The advantage of using prescribed liquid is I think it is fair to say less work on your part and if you are not using vodka, they will have a real solution.  Note, you can make a real solution, but only if you use a little vodka.  If you do not use the vodka and do not use the pharmacy, then you have a suspension.  A suspension is usually good enough if you shake very well before use.

 

Bob- can you tell me the percentage of cut these 2 options would then equal?  In other words, I would be titrating (down dosing) at what percentage?

 

I'm almost through with my questions.  ;) One other- do you recommend any jars/containers?

Rascal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...