Accidental cut and updose! Help?

Hi friends - need some advise ASAP.

I thought I was holding at .21mg since beginning of November. I’ve had a couple of small waves but last week I started having bad withdrawal symptoms and a new added scary symptom. This was odd for me while holding but I just thought I was being paranoid.

I take .07mg 3 times a day.

Yesterday I decided I would reweigh my remaining pills to see if I weighed them wrong. Well, most were wrong. Some were .06mg, some .05mg and I’m assuming some I already took were .07mg. I remember thinking they looked small - My scale must have malfunctioned.

This explained the bad withdrawal symptoms. I had no way of knowing what doses I actually took but I’m assuming anywhere from .18mg - .20mg.

I decided it was probably best to settle at .20mg so I took .07mg yesterday afternoon and .07mg last night. This morning I took .06mg. After the first .07mg dose, I could tell it was more than my body expected or was used to. I got queasy, hot, super emotional and internal jitters/anxiety. After the nighttime dose, same thing except added akathisia and zero hours of sleep. It was horrific.

Im usually calm and grounded but now I am absolutely freaking out not knowing what to do. Do I continue at .2mg or possibly go to .18mg?

This is the first time I’ve had akathisia since my doctor increased my AD too quickly 16 months ago and I had an adverse reaction for 2 weeks before cold turkeying. The cold turkey stopped the akathisia thank God but started withdrawal symptoms which got me to the Ativan 🤦🏼‍♀️

I’m stuck! Any advise?

Gosh, this journey can be super frustrating. I'm sorry you feel stuck.

It sounds to me your symptoms were more bearable on the lower dose right? If that's the case then if it were me I would probably try the lower dose next and see if the symptoms are better. Then you can hold at the dose where the symptoms are more bearable and hopefully things will level out.

I sincerely hope you find relief soon. Please try not to stress too much as that can intensify your symptoms.

Hi HopeForTomorrow,

How reliable is your scale? If your scale gave you different measurements when you made these doses as when you weighed them again recently, how do you know the most recent numbers are the more accurate ones?

For example, if I'm counting cash I like to count it twice. If I ever get two different amounts I do not settle on the second amount because all that second count has done is proved that I've made a mistake at some point; it doesn't prove that I counted correctly the second time.

If you are using a cheap milligram scale (<$500), IME these devices cannot possibly measure reliably to the milligram. I would consider the centigram (0.01g) on these devices to be a decent guess, but the milligrams seem to vary from use to use by about 10mg (1 centigram). If 10mg of pill weight is a significant dosage difference for you I suggest getting either a more expensive scale or switching to a method that uses filler to bulk up the weight of your tablets.

We can help you to understand the methods and use of filler if that's something that would help you to dose more reliably. At lower doses and with multiple daily doses, I think filler is almost always required if a cheap scale is involved.

As for where to hold your dose, I would suggest a generally higher dose given your apparent neurological instability. I'd be surprised if a lower dose was more tolerable given your symptoms, but I'm often surprised; as always, it's totally up to you.

Let us know what you need. 

Thank you so much! I’m staying at the lower dose. I have the scale that everyone suggests that measures to the .01g but it’s hard at a low dose. My pills are .5g = .5mg. So to get me at .18mg (lower dose I guess I’m holding at) - I’m weighing .06g, 3 times. I weigh it over and over again until I get the exact .06g several times and honestly eyeballing to see if it looks right.

Each .01g drop for me is 4% which is pretty hard. I basically just accidentally did a 14% cut which I’m feeling terribly so hopefully it will level out soon.

Is there a more expensive scale I can buy? I’ll purchase whatever if it will allow me to dry cut all the way down accurately!

I’m scared of the filler because the thought of crushing up pills scares me if I mess up / but up for suggestions on that too! I would do it weekly based off of my symptoms.

I tried to transition to liquid oil based compound and it fluctuated too much, as well. I’m obviously sensitive and feel better on pills for the most part until this last mishap. If I had to do it over again, I would’ve done a compound solution so it’s exact instead of the oil. But I spend 7 months trying to transition to liquid compound so I’m a little scarred.

Thank you so much jelly baby! Obviously confidence is 100% required and now not feeling confident has be for a whole other loop.

Hi HopeForTomorrow,

How reliable is your scale? If your scale gave you different measurements when you made these doses as when you weighed them again recently, how do you know the most recent numbers are the more accurate ones?

 

For example, if I'm counting cash I like to count it twice. If I ever get two different amounts I do not settle on the second amount because all that second count has done is proved that I've made a mistake at some point; it doesn't prove that I counted correctly the second time.

 

If you are using a cheap milligram scale (<$500), IME these devices cannot possibly measure reliably to the milligram. I would consider the centigram (0.01g) on these devices to be a decent guess, but the milligrams seem to vary from use to use by about 10mg (1 centigram). If 10mg of pill weight is a significant dosage difference for you I suggest getting either a more expensive scale or switching to a method that uses filler to bulk up the weight of your tablets.

 

We can help you to understand the methods and use of filler if that's something that would help you to dose more reliably. At lower doses and with multiple daily doses, I think filler is almost always required if a cheap scale is involved.

 

As for where to hold your dose, I would suggest a generally higher dose given your apparent neurological instability. I'd be surprised if a lower dose was more tolerable given your symptoms, but I'm often surprised; as always, it's totally up to you.

 

Let us know what you need. 

Another thing, sometimes the big pill weighs .05g, sometimes .051g so I weigh it first. If it’s .051, I know the small pill needs to weigh .007g to be .006g.

I’ll do that 3 times in a row and if they all equal the same and .006g, then I keep it at that. I have 2 scales. Should I start weighing on both? I have the Gemini and a cheaper scale. I feel like the cheaper scale doesn’t fluctuate as much as the Gemini so it’s the one I’ve been clinging to mostly.

I know you said you think I should do higher dose but what I thought was the higher dose yesterday, I took 2 doses and had akathisia and insomnia which I didn’t have the week before. I had symptoms but I slept and didn’t have akathisia.

If there’s an expensive scale I can buy, please let me know ASAP and I’ll order.

If not, what are my other options to make sure it’s exact?

As you know, if we’re not confident in this it makes everything so much worse so desperate for confidence here.

The fact that you could immediately notice an increase in symptoms after your higher dose is helpful. To me that says your body didn't like it and it responded much better to the big cut than the updose. So hopefully the lower dose will work for you. 

I also understand your hesitancy in using filler. I don't necessarily think it's the filler, I think it's just resistance to change. We are so scared to change anything in this process as we don't know how that could effect us. If it's any consolation, I've used filler before and it worked really well for me. When going into the lower doses it might boost your confidence to know the scale is picking up the smaller numbers.

The fact that you could immediately notice an increase in symptoms after your higher dose is helpful. To me that says your body didn't like it and it responded much better to the big cut than the updose. So hopefully the lower dose will work for you. 

 

I also understand your hesitancy in using filler. I don't necessarily think it's the filler, I think it's just resistance to change. We are so scared to change anything in this process as we don't know how that could effect us. If it's any consolation, I've used filler before and it worked really well for me. When going into the lower doses it might boost your confidence to know the scale is picking up the smaller numbers.

This helped me just take a deep breath and calm down. Thank you Jelly baby. For now, I am using 2 separate scales and hoping for the best!

Would you be able to help me with a plan for filler? I tried to follow Bob and I’m so confused. My pills each weigh .05grams which equals .5mg. Im at .06mg, 3 times a day.

You’re right, I have slight PTSD from change in this process so any bit on control or confidence I lose is scary.

I HAVE to be stable for my family and job. I have no other choice.

Thank you for your help!

I also used Bob's method by following his videos. I can try to help although I don't consider myself an expert. What do you want to know?

I also used Bob's method by following his videos. I can try to help although I don't consider myself an expert. What do you want to know?

I guess I don’t understand the powder to pill ratio and how to determine dosage?

I would literally beg, plead, pay someone to come up with a “how to weigh plan”

Ex. Put this amount of powder with 5 crushed pills, etc.

I’m a corporate finance person and this just completely throws me. WHY? I have no idea.

I guess it throws you because like many of us you have benzo brain.

Unfortunately I totally suck at maths. My husband took Bob's spreadsheet and formulas and worked out something for me once he understood the rationale behind the formula's. Way too complicated for me. 

Let me see what I can do. I'll get back to you.

I have the scale that everyone suggests that measures to the .01g but it’s hard at a low dose. My pills are .5g = .5mg. So to get me at .18mg (lower dose I guess I’m holding at) - I’m weighing .06g, 3 times. I weigh it over and over again until I get the exact .06g several times and honestly eyeballing to see if it looks right.

 

Each .01g drop for me is 4% which is pretty hard. I basically just accidentally did a 14% cut which I’m feeling terribly so hopefully it will level out soon.

Another thing, sometimes the big pill weighs .05g, sometimes .051g so I weigh it first. If it’s .051, I know the small pill needs to weigh .007g to be .006g.

 

I’ll do that 3 times in a row and if they all equal the same and .006g, then I keep it at that. I have 2 scales. Should I start weighing on both? I have the Gemini and a cheaper scale. I feel like the cheaper scale doesn’t fluctuate as much as the Gemini so it’s the one I’ve been clinging to mostly.

Hi HopeForTomorrow,

In your first post you say your pills are 0.5g = 0.5mg, but in your second post you say your "big pill" (whole tablet?) weighs 0.05g (or sometimes 0.051g). You also say that you "have the scale everyone suggest that measures to the .01g". But the scale that's commonly recommend on the forum, to my knowledge, is either the Gemini or the SmartWeight that measure to 0.001g, i.e. 1mg or milligram.

My guess is that your tablets weigh 0.05g each, and that your tablets contain 0.5mg of lorazepam each. I also suspect that you have a scale that purports to measure to 0.001g, i.e. the milligram. If I am mistaken please correct me.

Two cheap milligram scales are not, in my experience, better than one. I think the fundamental problem with a cheap scale is it's inaccuracy, not it's variance from measurement to measurement. It's not giving you a bunch of different weights that all average to the actual milligram value of what you're weighing; to my understanding it cannot know the milligram weight even after being calibrated, and it's only taking guesses to appear more capable than it is. Therefore even if you weighed your doses 100 times each and took the average of your scales readings, you would not be getting any closer to a milligram-accurate reading. That's just the reality of these devices.

I don't mean to frighten you about the method your familiar with, but I think you're having issues in-part because of the limits of your equipment. Every method I'm aware of that modifies a tablet is inherently inaccurate. Cheap scales just happen to be much more inaccurate than a more expensive model, but in their affordability they definitely have their uses. I just think it's very important not to confuse the readings on the device with a level of accuracy that is not possible at this dollar value. The least expensive scale that I would begin to trust the milligram digit is probably a 0.0001g scale (China made, off Amazon they're about $600). But a truly accurate balance for milligram measurements would likely be twice that price or more.

So IMO you have a device that can measure at best 0.01g and you're trying to get it to measure 0.007g and lower reliably, which it cannot do. The best solution in my mind is to use filler. Filler is very affordable, the process of using it is very simple, and it just requires sourcing a few tools to make your life easier. Best of all, you can do most of the work in large batches, creating your tablet powder and filler combination en-mass, and then weighing out doses from this container in whatever batch size you want (weekly, biweekly, etc).

To make your tablets into powder, I suggest buying a ceramic mortar and pestle (I like the 70ml size, I got one on Amazon for $7); Bob7 also demonstrated this can be done with a metal spoon and a ceramic bowl. It's very important to get the particle size of the crushed tablets down to that of the filler, so this step and the step of mixing the two powders together is where I'd spend my time and go slowly. I am most familiar with microcrystalline cellulose as a filler; this can be purchased online relatively easily.

I generally suggest combining tablets to filler at a 1:9 ratio because it's makes for easy math; this would be for every 1g of finely powdered tablets, adding 9g of filler by weight. Of course this is a ratio, so you could mix 0.5g tablets with 4.5g filler or some other combination; it's the ratio that matters.

Once you have a batch of powder at a 1:9, you now have effectively created 10x the pill weight per milligram. So if your average tablet weight is 0.05g/0.5mg medicine, then your new tablet powder weight is 0.5g/0.5mg medicine. And if your previous dose was 0.006g of powder, your new powder dose is 0.06g of powder.

To prepare a series of doses in advance, buddies like to use empty capsules. I'm not sure what size would be best, but maybe start with a size 00, and if that's too big you could eventually go to 0 or 1. The sizing of capsules is funny; 000 is the largest, 5 is the smallest.

I would personally use a small piece of paper on the scale, with a crease already in the middle; I would use a small scoop to gentle drop powder on the middle of the piece of paper until I reached my dosage weight. Then I would pick up the paper, partially folding it at the crease to create a nice pour spout, then position this over an empty capsule and gently pour the contents in to the capsule half and close it by joining the other half. There are funnels and scoops and similar for this purpose; also special paper that's for this purpose called weighing paper.

So this may be off track or too much information or typos; I'm tired and it's late. Jelly Baby has lots of experience doing something like this and she's welcome to pick my suggestions apart or to offer her own improvements. This is just what I know and how I would approach the problem of using filler to make dry weight reductions on a cheap milligram scale.

I hope it helps. Please ask any questions! 

HopeForTomorrow

Do you have everything to start using fillers once the maths is sorted?

HopeForTomorrow:

I am sorry I was so late to this message.  But I am happy to help you with fillers.

Slownsteady is correct.  Most people use a scale with 3 digits.  Here is a link:  https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

If you want me to do the mixing math for you, let me know.  I think I can make it simple for you.

Bob

Thanks so much for stopping by Bob7. From what I understand HopeForTomorrow needs the numbers broken down step by step and very simplified as withdrawal is making it very difficult to comprehend.

Your mixing math experience be appreciated.

HopeForTomorrow,

If you want me to make a simple plan for you, please confirm and answer these questions:

Your Lorazepam pill weighs 0.05 grams

Your Lorazepam pill is 0.5mg

You are currently at 0.06mg, 3 times a day.

You want to reduce like I did (about 0.8% per day for the first day and continue to zero benzo).

You have this equipment (see these three links):

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PYV3L6K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Microcrystalline-Cellulose-Ultra-Pure-Type/dp/B00JKU6IL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541013040&sr=8-1&keywords=Microcrystalline+Cellulose%2C+Ultra+Pure+%28Type+102%29%2C+1+kg+%282.2+lb.%29

HopeForTomorrow,

 

If you want me to make a simple plan for you, please confirm and answer these questions:

Your Lorazepam pill weighs 0.05 grams

Your Lorazepam pill is 0.5mg

You are currently at 0.06mg, 3 times a day.

You want to reduce like I did (about 0.8% per day for the first day and continue to zero benzo).

 

You have this equipment (see these three links):

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PYV3L6K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/Microcrystalline-Cellulose-Ultra-Pure-Type/dp/B00JKU6IL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541013040&sr=8-1&keywords=Microcrystalline+Cellulose%2C+Ultra+Pure+%28Type+102%29%2C+1+kg+%282.2+lb.%29

Hi Bob! Thank you so much. I have stabilized at .06mg 3 times a day - so .18mg/day.

Your Lorazepam pill weighs 0.05 grams - WCORRECT. Well, average .0508 so I guess anywhere from .05grams - .051grams

Your Lorazepam pill is 0.5mg - CORRECT

You are currently at 0.06mg, 3 times a day. - CORRECT

You want to reduce like I did (about 0.8% per day for the first day and continue to zero benzo).

----I would like to practice with the powder and get a hang of it before cutting, if that is possible? So the same mg until I'm comfortable to cut and stable. Is it possible to weigh weekly and decide if I'm going to cut at the beginning of each week at first? Or do I need to weigh for the month?

I have been doing 4% dry cuts (.01mg) and holding until stable just because with the lower dose and pill weight, it's difficult to cut and I think I'm getting some discrepancies. So as far as what is a comfortable percentage, I'm not sure of that yet. What is a safe start? One thing that worries me with weighing a month in advance is if I get worsening symptoms and need to hold. Is 2 weeks and option or by the week?

I have that scale and I have ordered other supplies that will be here next week.

Thank you so much!

HopeForTomorrow,

 

If you want me to make a simple plan for you, please confirm and answer these questions:

Your Lorazepam pill weighs 0.05 grams

Your Lorazepam pill is 0.5mg

You are currently at 0.06mg, 3 times a day.

You want to reduce like I did (about 0.8% per day for the first day and continue to zero benzo).

 

You have this equipment (see these three links):

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Milligram-Calibration/dp/B011J88S8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541012152&sr=8-1&keywords=Smart+Weigh+Premium+High+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale+with+Case%2C+Tweezers%2C+Calibration+Weights+and+Three+Weighing+Pans%2C+50+x+0.001g

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PYV3L6K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/Microcrystalline-Cellulose-Ultra-Pure-Type/dp/B00JKU6IL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541013040&sr=8-1&keywords=Microcrystalline+Cellulose%2C+Ultra+Pure+%28Type+102%29%2C+1+kg+%282.2+lb.%29

Also, is there a colored powder I could purchase? My tablets are white so I was thinking I would feel more confident if the powder was a different color and I could see it mixed well. If not, it's okay. I just know confidence is everything with these tapers!

It's so good to see you again and to hear you have been able to stabilize! That's wonderful.

I'm sure Bob will get you sorted. Please keep us updated on your progress!

It's so good to see you again and to hear you have been able to stabilize! That's wonderful.

 

I'm sure Bob will get you sorted. Please keep us updated on your progress!

Thank you so much! I was so worried when I had the mix up that I would stabilize but I did. I stayed at .18mg. I do think I'm having some weighing issues so I'm doing my best to assure it's correct each week but it's a pain.

Thank you SO MUCH for your help!

Also, is there a colored powder I could purchase? My tablets are white so I was thinking I would feel more confident if the powder was a different color and I could see it mixed well. If not, it's okay. I just know confidence is everything with these tapers!

Hello, HopeForTomorow.  What a clever idea!  I’ll defer to Bob7 on this, but I wonder if powdered food coloring would work? A quick online search yielded a variety of options, including powders made with only natural ingredients.

Colored powder is a good idea but I have never seen it.

Do I understand you are concerned about making a whole months worth of pills.  Would you rather just make one week work of pills?

Do I also understand you want the first set of pill NOT to have any taper.  Just your normal dose each day to see how it goes?

Colored powder is a good idea but I have never seen it.

 

Do I understand you are concerned about making a whole months worth of pills.  Would you rather just make one week work of pills?

 

Do I also understand you want the first set of pill NOT to have any taper.  Just your normal dose each day to see how it goes?

 

 

Colored powder is a good idea but I have never seen it. - I saw kale powder - I wonder if that would be a good alternative? I guess it's safer to go with what we know I just wish it was a different color!

Do I understand you are concerned about making a whole months worth of pills.  Would you rather just make one week work of pills? - Yes please!

Do I also understand you want the first set of pill NOT to have any taper.  Just your normal dose each day to see how it goes? - Yes please! Let me get comfortable with it with no cut and stabilize.

I tried using your spreadsheet but it was just one dose and I have 3 so it wasn't working.

Thank you Bob!!!

Colored powder is a good idea but I have never seen it.

 

Do I understand you are concerned about making a whole months worth of pills.  Would you rather just make one week work of pills?

 

Do I also understand you want the first set of pill NOT to have any taper.  Just your normal dose each day to see how it goes?

I found this! https://www.amazon.com/Firmapress-Tablet-Powder-Pharmaceutical-Excipient/dp/B01CTO0NVK?th=1

Do you think it's safe? I can't see exactly what is in it?

The reviews on that powder are mixed but people are using it.  It is up to you.

Let me know when you have whatever powder you want to use and the rest of the equipment.

I will then work on the math.

The reviews on that powder are mixed but people are using it.  It is up to you.

Let me know when you have whatever powder you want to use and the rest of the equipment.

I will then work on the math.

I've decided to go with your powder as the colored had several things in it including magnesium which I cannot have (not benzo related - I don't tolerate it well at all).

ETA is 2 days and I'll start working on it as soon as it's in! Weighing these tiny pills is not working very well at all right now.

Thank you so much Bob!