xanax to librium

hi guys

thinking about transitioning from my dlmt of Xanax maybe over to librium -- any suggestions on how to do a water taper?  was hoping since it is water soluble I could just dissolve in water, pull out and then drink ?

thank you gardener -- I did start a new thread on substitutions - thank. you so much for trying to help me

was there a reason you went with librium over valium

Glad I found you! I switched to Librium because I am a hyper-fast metabolizer of Valium. I believe you said you are a slow stabilizer of Valium?

This is from my p-log.

NOTES

 

Librium not stable in aqueous solution:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20066402

Aqueous solution basically means dissolved in water. So do not let it sit around for a week. I would use it up in a day or two and refrigerate anything you don't drink immediately.

Many years ago we had a discussion in the DMT Support Group about whether or not Librium was actually soluble in water. It starts about here:

Well, that's a clear conflict.  That source says 2mg/ml.  My source says .11mg/ml.  One of them is incorrect.  On the one hand I'm inclined to believe your source as I know people have used water to liquify L.  On the other hand I'm inclined to believe my source as the water data point at .11mg/ml fits in with the rest of the data curve for ethanol/water mixtures.  If it were 2mg/ml it would be way out of whack with the rest of the data.  This has been an unresolved question with L for a long time.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

I don't know how to resolve this, but at least in Gard's case it really doesn't matter as she is just combining her doses and does not need to make a solution.

SG57 has some chemistry background. Anne is a Phd chemistry professor. You can read their discussion if you click on the link above the quote. The link within the quote shows another discussion and a graph showing how poorly soluble in water Librium is.

After the discussion I decided better safe than sorry, I would dissolve in alcohol and then dilute with water. My ratios and methods are in my p-log.

According to USP-NF ...

Chlordiazepoxide: Yellow, practically odorless, crystalline powder. Is sensitive to sunlight. Sparingly soluble in chloroform and in alcohol; insoluble in water.

Chlordiazepoxide Hydrochloride: The hydrochloride salt of chlordiazepoxide is soluble in aqueous solutions. White or practically white, odorless, crystalline powder. Is affected by sunlight. Soluble in water; sparingly soluble in alcohol; insoluble in solvent hexane.

Looking through the information on DailyMed, it appears that chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is the drug molecule used in most of the commercially manufactured capsules in the US.

n.b. According to the drug information pamphlets, although chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is soluble in water, it is unstable in solution.

According to USP-NF ...

 

Chlordiazepoxide: Yellow, practically odorless, crystalline powder. Is sensitive to sunlight. Sparingly soluble in chloroform and in alcohol; insoluble in water.

 

Chlordiazepoxide Hydrochloride: The hydrochloride salt of chlordiazepoxide is soluble in aqueous solutions. White or practically white, odorless, crystalline powder. Is affected by sunlight. Soluble in water; sparingly soluble in alcohol; insoluble in solvent hexane.

 

Looking through the information on DailyMed, it appears that chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is the drug molecule used in most of the commercially manufactured capsules in the US.

 

n.b. According to the drug information pamphlets, although chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is soluble in water, it is unstable in solution.

Oh, this is bringing back memories. I remember my bottle did not say HCI, but it turned out it was. The pharmacy had decided to abbreviate "HCI" off of the label.

So even if the Librium bottle does not say it, it could actually be HCI.

Here's a very handy site for anyone wanting to know what is really in their pills: https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/

gardener99: Please allow me to add my thanks as well. The past discussion you shared is both interesting and helpful. I don’t have time to read all of the posts so wonder:

Did SG57 and Anne2015 reach the same conclusion I have? That is, Jouyban et al. conducted their experimental solubility studies using chlordiazepoxide whereas other researchers conducted theirs using chloridiazepoxide HCl? The first drug molecule is not soluble in water whereas the second one is.

Did Anne2015 eventually address your question about the meaning of “unstable in solution?”  If not and you’re still interested, the study cited below offers a possible answer.  Vinkers et al found that chlordiazepoxide HCl was rapidly hydrolyzed in aqueous solution to the active compound demoxepam. (Hydrolysis is a common decomposition reaction where water breaks the chemical bonds in another reactant - in this case chlordiazepoxide HCl.)

300days: If you decide to make a homebrew liquid using capsules containing chlordiazepoxide HCl and water, you might want to consider preparing your liquid just before you consume it.  If you choose to store unused liquid, consider keeping it in the refrigerator (Vinkers et al reported that hydrolysis was temperature dependent) for a limited amount of time.

Source:

Vinkers CH, Korte-Bouws GA, Toraño JS, et al. The rapid hydrolysis of chlordiazepoxide to demoxepam may affect the outcome of chronic osmotic minipump studies. Psychopharmacology. 2010 Mar;208(4):555-562. DOI: 10.1007/s00213-009-1752-8. Available online at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20066402/

hi all this is so helpful---

so, yes I would want to do a home-brew and what I typically do is just make it the night before -- so all of my doses are consumed within a 24 hour period.......I am scientifically challenged........so it sounds like what I would do is open the capsules of the 50mg of librium, add in the 400ml of water and shake and then divide into four containers -- (again I tend to do this around 11pm the night before)........does that seem reasonable?  and not too long in the water to become unstable?

gardenr going to look at your use of adding alcohol to dissolve - but it seems it would be quite a bit of alcohol for 50mg of librium (I would be transitioning over from 1mg of Xanax to 50mg of librium)......I use alcohol now with my Xanax taper - but it is just 2ml of vodka per 1mg of Xanax so it is a tiny amount

thanks guys

Hello again, 300days.

Given the drug information pamphlet warning that chlordiazepoxide HCl (C-HCl) is unstable in solution and Vinkers et al findings, I suggest keeping the homebrew refrigerated.

imho there’s no need to add off-the-shelf vodka given that (1) C-HCl is soluble in water and (2) adding alcohol adds risk — e.g. alcohol is cross-tolerant with benzodiazepines; interactions between the vodka and the drug molecule and/or the excipients are possible.  (In contrast, alprazolam/Xanax is soluble in alcohol so adding vodka to a homebrew has the potential to dissolve at least some of the drug molecules embedded with other ingredients in regular tablets.)

In the interest of risk-reduction (there are more unknowns than knowns regarding homebrew liquids), have you considered using a combination of regular capsules and homebrew?

If you are in the US, according to DailyMed, C-HCl is available in 5mg, 10mg, and 25mg capsules. If you plan to dose 4 times a day, you could take 10mg per dose in capsule form (40mg total) and 2.5mg (10mg total) in homebrew.  You would make your reductions using the homebrew.  When you reached 0mg of homebrew, you could switch to 5mg capsules plus homebrew. 

hi all this is so helpful---

so, yes I would want to do a home-brew and what I typically do is just make it the night before -- so all of my doses are consumed within a 24 hour period.......I am scientifically challenged........so it sounds like what I would do is open the capsules of the 50mg of librium, add in the 400ml of water and shake and then divide into four containers -- (again I tend to do this around 11pm the night before)........does that seem reasonable?  and not too long in the water to become unstable?

 

gardenr going to look at your use of adding alcohol to dissolve - but it seems it would be quite a bit of alcohol for 50mg of librium (I would be transitioning over from 1mg of Xanax to 50mg of librium)......I use alcohol now with my Xanax taper - but it is just 2ml of vodka per 1mg of Xanax so it is a tiny amount

 

thanks guys

I used 5mg capsules, only dissolving what I needed to dissolve, and taking the rest as whole capsules. I wrote more details in my p-log. Most of my L taper is near the front of my p-log. I made my brew the night before for the next day and refrigerated it. The solution will be fine if refrigerated. The link to info on Librium's stability in water is in my p-log, too. You can see by the graphs in the article that it will be fine refrigerated for 24 hours. It will be fine if you have to carry it with you unrefrigerated for a few hours too. I did that all the time.

This is a very interesting thread; thank you gardener99 and Libertas for your insights into this topic! I learned a lot, and I'm sure this will be valuable for other members.

300days,

I agree that a hybrid of homemade liquid and capsules seems much safer than switching entirely to homemade liquid, if possible.

I personally find the DrugBank site much easier to navigate than DailyMed. It also lists all the brand and generic forms of the chlordiazepoxide and if they're the HCl version or not. This link below will take you right to the list of manufacturer and drug forms; just look for your manufacturer in the table (their name could be on your pill bottle, but otherwise your pharmacist will know) to see what form of chlordiazepoxide they're peddling.

https://go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB00475#products-header