Hey buddies, how do I get stable?

Hi All,

Please help me get stable. I started DMT in May and I think it was working better than cut & hold technique. How accurate are these little Gemini scales? The weights seem to be jumping all over the place. I’ve been relying on no’s and dismissed the visual of the tablet and now my I’m in a world of hurt because the cut over 25 days according to scales is 0.025g, 0.25mg =0.75mg am dose from 1mg. But the tablet looks close to 1/2 tablet.

Ive ordered a new fancy pill cutter that I’ve seen others have used on here and hoping this will reduce my error going forward by cutting pills to 1/8 and shaving from there. Or maybe switching back to cut & hold, reducing 1/16th? tablet per week, if the pill cutter allows.

 

My question is how do I get some stability now? I’m waiting on the pill cutter to arrive from the US, still another 2 weeks away. I’m continuing to use my scales and going more on visual now and comparing the previously shaved tablet from the day before. I’m not going past 1/2 tablet score. I plan to cut to 1/2 tablet and hold for a bit when the pill cutter arrives.

 

It seems nothing I do helps me gain stability. I’m not functioning, I’m housebound and bed/ couch bound. The only thing I do is a short walk late afternoon. I feel like I’m in panic mode 24/7, Akathesia  hr, crying, feel terrified, DR/DR, body movements, too many symptoms to list. I have all acute symptoms and have done my whole taper.

 

Read my signature for more deets. Unable to cross to Valium and have tried other longer acting benzos with no success, and other drugs and supplements. Tried a hold of 12 weeks, felt worse.

 

I don’t hear of many people with these acute like symptoms everyday whilst on high doses. And most people get relief after a cut & hold and I don’t. I don’t understand.

 

I quit in 2019 after short term use and reinstated December 2019 and it didn’t work. Now I’m sicker than ever and trying to taper.

 

Any advice would be most welcomed.

You made a jump from Ativan to Valium? Have you tried instead something like Klonopin, its the next step from Ativan, longer half-life, but very similar effects... just a thought, i know we have too many thoughts and opinions but it might make it easier.

 

I started down the DMT with scales and it got really tricky really fast, I found I was doing lots of math, the scales gave me different readings for the SAME cut pills everytime, it seems like if the AC so much as blew a whiff of air that thing would change the number... so I went to DMT with alcohol, best choice I made personally.. it takes some work and trial and error first time, but eventually you get into a flow... Theres some good videos for it if ever you are interested...

Oh my heart aches for you as I know you've been struggling for quite some time.

 

It seems you are very sensitive to meds and cuts rigt?  I think DMT is probably right for you but unless you have very expensive scales they are not 100% accurate. I've been tapering with a scale as well and I can tell you I get lots of different readings making capsules. It hasn't bothered me too much as I've been functional.

 

This week I got slammed with symptoms and I wasn't functional. I can't say what brought it on but I'm lucky that holding has helped. However going forward I need a more user-friendly method to do my reductions so I will be going with slownsteady's hybrid liquid pill DMT.  It might be an option for you? It's more accurate than the scale, you can make smaller reductions and you can hold for a few days and resume when you need to.

 

You still need a proper pill cutter for that so it's not an immediate solution. I'm just offering you one option to look into. However you need to consider that some people are very sensitive to the liquid and I don't know how you'll respond to liquid if you're this sensitive. Here's the link http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=254653

 

I'm so scared to give you any advice as I'm worried anything I suggest will set you back. 😥

 

Thank you both for your reply. I’ve tried a few different benzos and had a lot of trouble so I would prefer to stick to Ativan.

 

The partial liquid taper sounds ideal but once again I’m not willing to try a compounded version given my sensitivity to meds and I’m too sick to make my own solution at home.

 

I do really value your input. Thanks for the link Jelly Baby, if I ever improve enough that I can function I would consider this. I really hope it works for you. I’m really interested to know how you go.

 

ill just drop these here for anyone interested:

 

first one is ativan taper using ONLY water:

 

2nd one is klonopin taper with vodka(i personally use Everclear 151 1mg:1ml but to each their own):

 

If you look at Willpower videos comments, she also has a sheet where she shows how to make the calculations for the pills.

 

NOW I DO NOT know why people have this weird 450ml, 350ml, 325ml conversions with some crazy conversion math. I like simple so If I want to dissolve 5MG I'm going to use 500ml of solution, that way the entire thing is 1:100, you can use 50 and keep it 1:10 or 5 and keep it 1:1 though I find with 500ML of solution it is a lot easier to DIAL in the correct dose using a graduated cylinder. That's just me though, I like simple.

 

DEFINITELY speak with your doctor about what could happen if you switch to Klonopin, as I said its a longer lasting effect, which might make it easier between doses without going FULL Ashton on the Valium and such. I understand if you want to stay on Ativan though, and the first video describes REALLY easily how to do it without any Science labs...

 

 

 

Hi All,

Please help me get stable. I started DMT in May and I think it was working better than cut & hold technique. How accurate are these little Gemini scales? The weights seem to be jumping all over the place. I’ve been relying on no’s and dismissed the visual of the tablet and now my I’m in a world of hurt because the cut over 25 days according to scales is 0.025g, 0.25mg =0.75mg am dose from 1mg. But the tablet looks close to 1/2 tablet.

Ive ordered a new fancy pill cutter that I’ve seen others have used on here and hoping this will reduce my error going forward by cutting pills to 1/8 and shaving from there. Or maybe switching back to cut & hold, reducing 1/16th? tablet per week, if the pill cutter allows.

 

My question is how do I get some stability now? I’m waiting on the pill cutter to arrive from the US, still another 2 weeks away. I’m continuing to use my scales and going more on visual now and comparing the previously shaved tablet from the day before. I’m not going past 1/2 tablet score. I plan to cut to 1/2 tablet and hold for a bit when the pill cutter arrives.

 

It seems nothing I do helps me gain stability. I’m not functioning, I’m housebound and bed/ couch bound. The only thing I do is a short walk late afternoon. I feel like I’m in panic mode 24/7, Akathesia  hr, crying, feel terrified, DR/DR, body movements, too many symptoms to list. I have all acute symptoms and have done my whole taper.

 

Read my signature for more deets. Unable to cross to Valium and have tried other longer acting benzos with no success, and other drugs and supplements. Tried a hold of 12 weeks, felt worse.

 

I don’t hear of many people with these acute like symptoms everyday whilst on high doses. And most people get relief after a cut & hold and I don’t. I don’t understand.

 

I quit in 2019 after short term use and reinstated December 2019 and it didn’t work. Now I’m sicker than ever and trying to taper.

 

Any advice would be most welcomed.

 

I'm having great results with Slownsteady's method it's extremely easy and accurate, and, I needed easy.

 

Based on your 1.75mg and if you cut to a half a 1 mg pill your at a 28 percent cut in 25 days which is large even at your high dose. I would just hold and wait to get stable and plan out something between 5 to 10 percent every 14 days.

 

One thing I did for a insurance policy was take my liquid for four days to make sure my body was used to the liquid. Even at a small dose of .125mg ml liquid of my 1.5 mg total, I threw up the next day. I was fine after the four days and very mild symptoms since starting. Godspeed to you!

I’m going to hold. I wish I had the headspace to work out s&s schedule. I may pm him and see if he will help simplify things even more for me 

I’m going to hold. I wish I had the headspace to work out s&s schedule. I may pm him and see if he will help simplify things even more for me 

 

I understand it seems daunting. I couldn't make sense of it initially and I then asked my husband to have a look at it and help me. I think I'm getting a better understanding of it. Do you have someone that can help you? It is really tough when we're in the thick of withdrawal and trying to make sense of stuff. I think if you can manage the spreadsheet then half the battle is won. I managed to get that right. But I also understand if you'd prefer to stick to dry tapering.

 

What is your gut telling you? Do you feel switching over to get more accuracy might solve it or do you think sticking to tablet only will be the better option?

It’s so hard to know what to do. I do know that I’m too nervous to try liquid compound. I’d prefer to use the tablet and dissolve it in water but I’m afraid I’ll mess things up further whilst I’m in this state.

 

I don’t have a lot of support so it’s difficult to find someone to help.

 

I think there will be less chance of error if I use the fancy aluminium pill cutters. At least I’ll be able to cut a “accurate” 1/4 or maybe an 1/8th and file down from there. Not ideal but at least I won’t be going over 0.25mg like this cut. I feel so silly that I didn’t pay more attention to tablet and not just the weight.

 

At the moment my last shaved tablet says 10.074g (I use the 10g weight and the pill) but looks more like to 10.060g. I’ll keep the tablet shaved to around the same amount until the pill cutter arrives then cut to 1/2 tablet and hold.

Thoughts?

 

I just hope a hold will help me this time.

 

Please keep in touch if you can. Really means a lot to me.

 

If you feel more comfortable with tablet, you can look into Bob7's method. I don't know what colour your tablets are? If it's white it might be a bit difficult to follow his method. Adding microcrystalline powder adds a lot more accuracy to the weight of the scale. This is what I've been doing: https://benzodrytapermath.com/

 

But like I said, I still got variances on the scale. However, I do believe it's a lot more accurate than the pill and shaving alone especially when you're in the lower numbers. 

 

(Just trying to give you options. You don't have to do any of this!).

Oh, and I think holding will be good! At least for now you know it won't get worse. 

Thanks JB, I’ve been in touch with Bob. Knowing me I’ll be sensitive to the filler.

 

 

 

 

Hi Aussiegalrecovery,

I'm sorry to hear how much difficulty you've been having in using your scale and getting accurate results. We get what we pay for, unfortunately. And especially with a very dose-sensitive drug like lorazepam, I can understand someone sensitive having real problems when the weight measurements aren't reliable.

 

It looks like you've been receiving excellent support on this thread. There are a number of initial ways I see to proceed, and almost all of them have been suggested. If a clonazepam crossover is off the table, I think that leaves improving your stability on lorazepam.

 

I suggest with your severity of symptoms that your upmost goal at this time be reliable dosing, and leave reductions for a future exploration. In my experience regaining stability depends on consistent and accurate dosing, may also require a broader distribution of doses to keep blood serum levels more regular, and last but not least, may require an updose.

 

I do not believe there are measurable benefits to remaining dysfunctional at a daily dosage reached by overly rapid reductions (or crossover, for that matter). When someone is suffering terribly from withdrawal symptoms that are related to reductions and not tolerance, I often suggest updosing to the nearest previously stable dose, ideally one which is easy and reliable to administer.

 

It sounds like from your post that you have 1mg lorazepam tablets, and that you dose twice a day, AM and PM. It sounds like you are currently cutting your AM dose by dry taper with a scale, and that while you intend to be at 0.75mg with this dose, visually you are more likely to be taking 0.5mg, thus having cut ~25% in 25 days.

 

I do not suggest holding at 1.5mg with your severity of symptoms, given that you were at 2mg just a month ago. I know this may feel like progress lost, but I want to encourage you to not see it this way; I believe we are first and foremost gaining understanding, and successful tapering is just a benefit of that understanding. In my opinion, what you are describe experiencing is NOT successful tapering but it IS successful growth in understanding. I suggest we capitalize on that growth and move towards successful tapering by taking an updose.

 

For lack of a reliable pill splitter, I suggest updosing to 2mg, and I suggest dividing this into four (4) doses with whatever pill splitting options you have available (razor-blade pill splitter or even a kitchen knife). Since I'm suggesting dosing 2mg/day, you would be using 2 full tablets so I don't think a crude division will matter as long as you consume all the parts of the two tablets (crumbs and all) within the day. I suggest dividing these four doses evenly throughout the day, but leaving at least an 8 hour window for sleep between doses at night.

 

A suggested dosage schedule might be:

6am - 0.5mg

11am - 0.5mg

5pm - 0.5mg

10pm - 0.5mg

 

Would you consider making the updose that I describe?

Would you consider spreading your doses out to four doses per day?

 

Please let me know if I misunderstood any aspects of your situation, and your preferences for moving forward in healing. 

Hi SS,

Thank you for your reply.

I currently dose 3 times a day, 8 hours apart. I don’t think I have interdose withdrawal because I feel terrible 24/7 and taking Ativan gives me no relief. I think I have tolerance withdrawal and withdrawal as I taper and I’ve been on Ativan a few times now.

I have tried other meds and they did not agree with me. I deteriorated rapidly after trying to cross over over to Valium. Ever since then I haven’t been able to function much. I tapered off Valium and then held my Ativan dose for 12 weeks, no improvement. It wasn’t until I started DMT I improved slightly at times. Even before the failed c/o I was a little more functional but I still had many disabling symptoms.

When I did a quick taper off 2mg in July 2019 I was like this. I feel like I’m in acute all the time. When I reinstated Dec 19 @ 4mg, it gave me very little relief.

For these reasons I’m not comfortable updosing because it does not give me any relief at any dose rate.

I do value your opinion but I don’t know what to think anymore because I have tried many techniques, meds, supps etc.

This process has been torturous and long already. The plan was to get stable then it really didn’t matter how long my taper took as long as I could function. I’ve never found stability and now I’ve lost hope.

 

I’m

 

Hi SS,

Thank you for your reply.

I currently dose 3 times a day, 8 hours apart. I don’t think I have interdose withdrawal because I feel terrible 24/7 and taking Ativan gives me no relief. I think I have tolerance withdrawal and withdrawal as I taper and I’ve been on Ativan a few times now.

I have tried other meds and they did not agree with me. I deteriorated rapidly after trying to cross over over to Valium. Ever since then I haven’t been able to function much. I tapered off Valium and then held my Ativan dose for 12 weeks, no improvement. It wasn’t until I started DMT I improved slightly at times. Even before the failed c/o I was a little more functional but I still had many disabling symptoms.

When I did a quick taper off 2mg in July 2019 I was like this. I feel like I’m in acute all the time. When I reinstated Dec 19 @ 4mg, it gave me very little relief.

For these reasons I’m not comfortable updosing because it does not give me any relief at any dose rate.

I do value your opinion but I don’t know what to think anymore because I have tried many techniques, meds, supps etc.

This process has been torturous and long already. The plan was to get stable then it really didn’t matter how long my taper took as long as I could function. I’ve never found stability and now I’ve lost hope.

 

I’m

 

I hear you. It sounds like this has been a long and frustrating journey.

 

Nothing I suggested was specifically to treat interdose withdrawal; my intention was to offer you strategies that I believe improve neurological stability with lorazepam.

 

I suspect that your judgement is impaired in ways by the impact that these drugs and drug adjustments have had on your nervous system. I have found that impatience is a common withdrawal symptom, and can lead to poor decision-making during patient-led tapering once the taper has gotten out of hand; this instability is what I am suggesting to treat, if at all possible, and the methods to do this may go against your current pattern of thinking.

 

I understand that you were on 2mg/day ~25 days ago, and your description of your current dose suggests you may have taken a 25% reduction during this time, a reduction which I suspect would not be well tolerated by someone who is already unstable. Tolerance or not, rapid reductions seem to carry a heavy cost and may be compounding your suffering more than you realize.

 

This is your taper. I know how hard it can be to make decisions in the midst of mental instability. You may have a different way of doing things that works for you, and I respect the journey you are on. I stand by my suggestion of an updose, but if there's any other way that I can help you going forward please don't hesitate to ask.

 

You will find a way.

I agree with you. My thinking is impaired and therefore knowing what the right thing to do is difficult.

I do really appreciate your help, please don’t think that I’m ungrateful because I feel lucky to have found this site and such support from people like you and many others.

 

I will be holding for now and will definitely require your expertise going forward. So many people praise your techniques and sensible advice. I’m so glad that you’ve found your way through this process...

 

All the best. Will be in touch.

 

Thank you

Hi Aussiegal,

 

I very much value sns input and believe he is quite educated on the subject of benzo's. For this one, I agree with your decision to hold for now. I have been following you on different threads and I think what you're going through is not purely as a result of your tapering but also exacerbated by the health issues you had to deal with (which sns might not be aware of). My opinion is you need to fully recover from your health and meds set backs and just give your body and mind a break.

 

I fully believe you'll get better and heal like we all do. There is hope at the end of the tunnel.  You WILL overcome this!

You’re so good to me JB. 😘

 

I agree with Jelly Baby, in lieu of a crossover or an updose it makes sense to just hold as long as necessary to get a break and recover some functionality. My concern was about where to take that hold but of course that is entirely up to you Aussiegalrecovery, and if 1.5mg/day is where you want to hold, you've made the decision and I support that. 

 

Thanks for the feedback! I'll be around if you'd like help going forward.

Many buddies make lite work. 

Thanks for all your input and support slownsteady. 

Thanks for all your input and support slownsteady. 

 

Likewise Jelly Baby; you've been a huge help to so many members around the forum. I appreciated your feedback on the larger situation here. I can get a little focused on the numbers. 

I'm no expert. and respect your decisions to maintain with Lorazepam, but I wish to also tell you that Ativan gave me ZERO relief from any symptoms once I started getting withdrawal symptons, I've tried updosing with it, taking more times a day, the Ativan/Lorazepam is just crap to my system... and it could be like that to you too since you say you don't feel good at all during the day. The switch to clonazepam to me was a heavensend, after several days of insomnia I was feeling GREAT somehow after 1mg of clonazepam...

 

You failed crossing from Lorazepam to valium, but thats an INTENSE switch. Those 2 have entirely different half lifes and dosages that are SOO far apart.

 

All we want is for you to get better and be stable. And from all I read so far, the ativan is not keeping you stable, this is the reason I keep insisting on the clonazepam. Now, I'm not a doctor, and have a lot less experience than anyone here.. but this is what I've witnessed from your words...  I think if you talk this through with a doctor, and try it at least 1 day, it might hurt, it might not, but at least you would know.. benzos suck, but some work better than others and it depends on each person obviously...

 

 

Rev,

Thank you for the message.

I think I’ve been burnt so bad from the Valium I’m reluctant to try yet another benzo. I have tried a few, one off doses and they had no effect on me. The Valium is longer acting so I had to give it a bit of time and with time I became worse. Ever since then I haven’t recovered even though I’m still on Ativan. I was struggling last year just on Ativan but I still managed to work a couple of hours a week, could drive and would get some relief when I took Ativan.

 

If I were to try Clonazepam how would I introduce this? My Dr is lovely but doesn’t know about tapering but is willing to help me.

 

 

When I talked about this with my doctor and told them I was on Ativan, I had already googled about people switching to a longer acting benzo like Klonopin (clonazepam) under the recommendation of their docs. He managed to say it before I even brought it up, he said a longer acting Benzo would benefit me 1 because Klonopin is stronger than Ativan (1mg of K is roughly 2mg of A) and 2 the effects would stay in my system longer. Though I'm not certain the conversion math is correct , nor important, I think you could try to go on the same dose and see if you FEEL GOOD, I think feeling good is the first step you want to reach, and then you can start tapering from there. You should find your balance naturally, if you are too woozy, than its too much, if you still dont feel good, than its not enough... listen to your body...

 

If this is something you are willing to try, then bring it up, If it was me, I would say I don't feel the Ativan isn't helping me and that I would like a longer acting benzo but one that is not so far from Ativan, hence : Klonopin. Valium is just tooo far off, I know the Ashton Manual is built on it, but... it just seems like such a stretch to go from Ativan to Valium, especially with the doses and half-lifes being completely different...

 

There is an image in this page that shows: the half life of Ativan is 10-20 and the half life of klonopin 18-50, so it can stay in your blood longer keeping you stabler longer.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3684331/

 

Again, I'm not a doctor, and this is not actual medical advice since I'm trying to recover just like you so I'd look to your doctor for guidance on this (but I understand, not many doctors understand it all) there are some resources like

dosage calculators:

https://clincalc.com/Benzodiazepine/

 

And you can google switching from ativan to klonopin and see what people have said about it as well... and then draw your own conclusions from that...

 

Keep trying until you find the right solution for you, there is something out there that will help you, believe it. I'm sure you'll find your way through this, as hard as it is, you will prevail.

Hi I haven't read the whole thread but I noticed at the beginning you asked about how accurate the scale was.

 

Before trying to withdraw off klonopin i withdrew successfully off latuda and I got a very accurate scale.

 

It reads to 0.0000 g so therefore it is accurate to the milligram (remember the weight of the pill itself will weigh much more than the dosage on the label. For example a .5 mg pill of klononpin for me usually weighs around 0.1720 g give or take

 

I won't lie, it is a more expensive scale as I believe it is actually lab equipment. It's currently $569 but it was worth every penny to me.

 

It's the Hanchen Digital Analytical Balance, 0.1mg Precise Electronic Scale for Lab/ Pharmacy/ Jewelry Store/ Chemical Plant 0.0001g

 

I'm not sure if we are allowed to post links here but if you search for it on Amazon you can find it. I get it if it's too expensive but it's helped me a lot and hopefully it will help me get off Klonopin someday!