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Hellish dilemma - what would you do?


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I've been sleepless for several nights now (4, I think) and I'm terrified to face another one tonight.  I've been trying to get my normal sleep back by stopping all sleep aids and so far insomnia's winning.  Should I keep going or give in and take something, which will probably obviate any gains my body has made toward restoring natural sleep.  And what if I'm so wired that the sleep aid doesn't work?  That problem has occurred in the past.  Major meltdown territory.  How do rational people (not me) navigate this minefield?
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I've been sleepless for several nights now (4, I think) and I'm terrified to face another one tonight.  I've been trying to get my normal sleep back by stopping all sleep aids and so far insomnia's winning.  Should I keep going or give in and take something, which will probably obviate any gains my body has made toward restoring natural sleep.  And what if I'm so wired that the sleep aid doesn't work?  That problem has occurred in the past.  Major meltdown territory.  How do rational people (not me) navigate this minefield?

 

My personal opinion: If you have things that are not benzos (or z-drugs) that may help you get some sleep, you might want to try one?

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I agree with Andros. Why suffer? Suffering is not ennobling. Indeed, if you have any of the following (I've tried them all with some success), maybe try one? Unisom, melatonin, chamomile tea (double strength), CBD if you're accustomed to it, go-to-sleep music, l-tryptophan. No blue screens (phone, tablet) before bedtime, sleep hygiene. You probably know the drill. Of all the above, 1 gram of l-tryptophan has proven most successful for me.

 

Not being prescriptive, just suggesting options.

 

Hope things improve for you. Sadly, I've been there.  :'(

 

Best,

 

Katz

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klonopinaddict. I hear you. I also agree with what Shayna, oregonkatz and Andros said.

Last night I was tired and wanted to doze off in front of the TV. I managed to stay awake. Went to bed at 9:00 PM, did my usual relaxation stuff, read my book , and at 1:00 am I was still awake.

Got up and took two Costco otc sleeping aids. They contain doxylamine succinate 25 mg.

I could feel when they were in my system, and yet I was awake. Finally I dropped off.  I maybe slept an hour or two at best. 

At least I slept.

The downside to the OTC sleeping pills is they make me feel groggy all day.  I also have to concentrate on my thoughts. 

Tonight I will tough it out, as the costco pills will not work the 2nd time around.

Hopefully whatever kept me awake, will not tonight.

 

Stay well and may sleep come to you,

NG

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How about Benadryl? Will it help you? I take that sometimes when sleepless nights leave me feeling desperate and now that I'm off meds it works well enough. HUGS
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The problem with taking otc sleep aids that contain antihistamines is that the antihistamines are antocholinergic and that has a detrimental effect on brain function long term, increasing the potential for dementia and Alzheimer's.  They are not benign drugs for anybody, but especially for decrepit old geezers like me.  I've only taken Unisom maybe 3 times and I won't do it again.  Even mirtazapine sedates via a potentially distructive antihistaminergic action and the 2 times I tried it the next day hangover effect was prohibitively awful.  Melatonin and L-tryptophan did nothing for me and the latter is potentially dangerous, raising the possibility for the occurence of serotonin syndrome, especially if used in conjunction with a antihitamine sleep aid.  So what's left - stuff like valerian root, chamomile, passion flower?  Please.  Hmm, I guess you can tell I'm pretty bummed about the whole situation.  Anyhow, what I did in desparation last night after 4 days of no sleep was to abjectly capitulate and take an Ambien in terror of the possibility that it wouldn't work.  I slept for 9 hrs.  So what the hell do I do now, go through 4 more wretched days and take another Ambien?  Can this cycle be broken?
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I forgot to mention Atarax (hdroxyzine), KA. It worked sporadically for me when I was experimenting with "sleep aids". but maybe you've tried it.

 

btw, why say "please" so derisively to "stuff like" chamomile tea? It worked very well for me and works well for others. If I were you, I'd sure try it over reflexively reaching for an Ambien. (I know you were desperate). I threw my unused Ambien away so I wasn't tempted. That forced me to try other things.

 

As for l-tryptophan, a little research will show you how to avoid serotonin syndrome. I've never seen any mention of avoiding antistamines while on it . . . but surely common sense ought to prevail there. Anyhow, Here's the skinny on it:

 

L-tryptophan can interfere with many different medicines. Do not take L-tryptophan if you are on antidepressants known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), MAO inhibitors, tricyclic antidepressants and atypical antidepressants. Doing so may lead to a life-threatening condition called serotonin syndrome.

 

All is not lost, KA. Keep on trying. I believe you'll find something that will help (besides z drugs.) I did, and I'm not a special snowflake. And just for the record, I'm an "old geezer" too. I guess 73 qualifies.

 

Best,

 

Katz

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Thanks to all who have responded.  To those who suggested otc antihistamine sleep aids, I'm worried enough about the possibility of developing dementia without taking something that has the potential to accelerate it.  Katz, I've tried all the sleep aids you mentioned a few times and received no discernable benefit.  Controlled studies have also failed to reveal any significant increase in efficacy for any of them over that of the placebo for enhancing sleep or reducing anxiety.  Believe me, I desparately wish they would work because I hate the thought of taking Ambien, which, ironically, gave me a great night's sleep last night with no next day hangover.  So tonight I probably begin another few days of sleepless agony until I crack and take another Ambien.  A fiend from Hell couldn't have designed a better form of torture.  (Whew, how dramatic is that?!)  Anyhow, I'll drink my chamomile tea tonight and hope for the best.
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Oh, KA.  :'(

 

In answer to your question, "what would you do?" I'd throw the Ambien away.

 

Dunno if the chamomile tea will help you. It did me. But we're all different.

 

Here's an observation from someone who has been down the road you're on now. I think (based on only my experience and observations) that we're all lusting for an Ambien substitute. Something that will work like Maxwell's Silver Hammer in the Beatles song. Something that will knock us out and give us 8 or 9 hours of sleep. the new Holy Grail of sleep. Well, I never found it. And I doubt that it exists. So we're left with things like the aforementioned tea  . . . or antihistamines, or whatever, and some behavioral changes (I had to leave my partner snoring in bed and sleep by myself in another room until I solved the insomnia problem). It' a dirty rotten shame.

 

So, best to you,

 

Katz

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Thanks, youngster.  Oh to be 73 again...  I  don't know how you overcame insomnia.  I'm going to see a therapist next week to try to learn coping strategies, but I overcome a lifetime of anxiety-prone thinking at my age?  I have to give it a shot, for my wonderful family as well as myself.
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I'm going to see a therapist next week to try to learn coping strategies, but I overcome a lifetime of anxiety-prone thinking at my age

 

You can do it, Uncle KA. It took me a few years and many, many things tried and discarded. My therapist was helpful, also. Like you, I had/have a lifetime of anxiety-prone thinking. Getting on top of it was and is a struggle but I've learned a few things.

 

Best to you. I know you can do it.

 

:smitten:

 

Katz

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KA if once in a while Zolpidem helps you out without significant side effects give it a try. Just remember addiction risk and metabolism, which is slower when you are 65+. Trazodone perhaps has a safer profile, if you haven't tried yet.

 

While being rx drug free or sleeping with natural supplements is the better outcome, there is no evidence that chronic use of antihistamine or off label drugs is safer than benzos or z drugs. As you read, taking benadryl, atarax, etc. regularly is insane. While benzo withdrawal is rather difficult compare to other drugs, it doesn't mean that taking benzos is worse. Benzo withdrawal can be more challenging than heroine. This do not imply that taking Ambien is worse than taking heroine..

 

Addressing underlying anxiety with your doc could provide a safer long lasting improvement.

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I learned something from you, KA.  And I thank you for it.  I have been using Benadryl to help me sleep off and on for, well, years.  Not often in the olden days, but frequently now that I am tapering the benzo.  I was having issues with memory and executive function and we eradicated 7 meds from my poor overburdened brain because they had memory loss as side effects.  So I am MUCH better - but I never checked the Benadryl. I read a bunch of reports from solid sources and, yup, you are right.  I am not using it for sleep going forward.  I guess I will stick with Melatonin and L-Tryptophan.  I don’t want to take those powerful sleeping pills either - too worried I will “sleep drive” or something else stupid.

 

Thank you for the heads up!

 

Butterfly 🦋

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I’d rather take an antihistamine than a z drug or ap. I think if u look up aps or z drugs u will also find research saying they are linked to dementia, as is lack of sleep.
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AP only if everything else fails.

 

I'm tapering flurazepam because at 15mg doesn't work and I wanna try to be benzo free BUT if I have to judge between Dalmane VS Seroquel as a sleeping drugs without considering my current situation, 10 times better Dalmane. Very long half life (longer than diazepam), never had intra day withdrawal. Unfortunately it can't be used for tapering because it came only in 15mg pills otherwise it could be a viable solution for insomniacs instead of valium.

 

KA have you ever tried trazodone?

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Ummm…I did not suggest that I’d be taking either of those. Was your response directed to a different post/poster?

 

No I wasn’t speaking directly to you but just saying that people have said here that taking antihistamine is risky but then they take aps and z drugs. I’m not having a go at anyone because trust me lack of sleep has made me desperate too. I’m just saying that I have seen studies or suggestions that both aps and z drugs are also linked to dementia as is lack of sleep. So really they’re all in the same basket. None are the answer but when ur facing night after night of no sleep and ur mental and physical health is suffering I know personally I’d rather take an antihistamine.

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An antihistamine once in a while isn't a big issue.

 

The main problem is being unable to sleep without taking something.

 

Yes KA antihistamines are anticholinergic (while trazodone and mirtazapine are not) but aren't addictive like zolpidem. You could be my mom. I'm not judgemental: if ambien gives you a good night of sleep without hangover you shouldn't feel guilty. At the same time you could take benadryl or atarax instead of ambien just to avoid addiction or tolerance issues. Low dose trazodone is also safe. Btw reaction is subjective.

 

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Anti psychotic.

 

KA honestly I don’t judge you at all for doing what u need to to get sleep xx

 

Can I ask you? So after u got off klonopin have u had the insomnia the whole time or is it recent? I know u have said u had acid reflux that was very bad but I’m just wondering? X

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Please excuse my ignorance; I'm not up on the jargon.  What's an ap?

 

Anti-Psychotic.

 

Not really sure what to say about the Ambien. It's basically a baby benzo. I was effed up on its bigger brother Zopiclone, which is 100% like a benzo in its effects. I was a short term user but quit essentially cold turkey. In the month of living hell I endured, I was never tempted to take another Zop, but only because they did not really work well. I'd "sleep" with one, but wake up extremely fatigued, like I hadn't slept at all. I think had a Valium landed on my lap, I would have swallowed it. So I understand the desperation (we all do)

 

All drugs cause side effects. That can't be avoided.

 

Antidepressants (the non-SSRI ones), and Antipsychotics happen to have similar structures to the OTC Antihistamines, so essentially, at low doses, they act like Unisom on steroids.

 

I wouldn't worry about the dementia sides as I think you'd have to use an AH for months to start risking that.

 

Have you tried any supplements at all?

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Yeah, I get it about taking Benadryl, I'm now more prone to just go with the less sleep and accept it. But it helps as a crutch when I let go of the ambien finally. But I'd vote for Benadryl over ambien after the BS pain and crap I went through for so long with no clue it was the ambien!!

 

Blood sugar seems to be an issue, days I have sugar I don't sleep long ... not exclusively. But I do fall asleep. Sorry for those who go days without--- KA do you follow sleep hygiene?? Like getting off the computer and tv and bright lights in the evening 2 hours before sleep and getting daylight in to your eyeballs first thing in the morning? About ready to pull out my happy light for the winter here for that reason! Daily walks, movement or other things?

 

There's over the counter progestcream (progest--is bio-identical, not the same as progesterone) and that can be found at health food stores. It's worth looking in to for calming and sleep.

 

 

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