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Converting from dry to liquid


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Greetings all.  I've been doing a dry DMT by cutting and filing.  It's worked out OK so far, but the two scales I've purchased generally give me two different numbers.  In fact, each scale gives me different numbers most of the time.  At the higher doses, I honestly haven't cared much about the thousandth so long as they weigh the tenth and hundredth the same.  From what I've read though, as the dose decreases is sometimes where the wheels come off and that precision matters.  I plan to use a vodka/water solution.  Any opinions one way or the other?  Also, I have a pill grinder that grinds the pills to a fine powder.  Should I do this before adding the vodka, or does it even matter?  Also, if I prepare enough solution for the entire week, will it be OK to keep in the refrigerator? Thanks and best wishes to all of you.
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Thank you so much TMH (and slownsteady).  That's great information that cleared up a lot of things up for me.  I didn't know how much solution to prepare to get me through 7 days, but then had a "duh" moment when the calculator suggest 0.1mg per ml.  It makes things so easy.  Now since I'm on a higher dose and using a straight liquid taper, I have to prepare 90 ml and 9 pills of 1mg each to keep the concentration at 0.1mg/ml and that gets me through 7 days.  If I use 25ml of 90% ethanol (180 proof), that's a total alcohol content of 22.5 ml or 3.21 ml per day.  I don't drink, so I can't imagine that 2/3rd of teaspoon a day of ethanol is going to be a problem insofar as interfering with, or altering the taper schedule.  Thanks again and if you feel I've missed something or on the wrong track, please feel free to let me know.  Have a good day.
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Other than Everclear, the highest vodka I could find locally was 100 proof (50% alcohol).  Should this suffice?  Thank you
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Would you consider only doing a small percentage of liquid and the rest in pills? That a lot of alcohol to consume and If you have a good pill splitter you can just divide out your liquid portion. There less errors this way and your body is already adapted to taking the pills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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TMH....yes, I'm open to anything that has worked for those more experienced in this.  Being able to find only 100 proof vodka, that does reduce the alcohol content of the mixture to 12.5 ml (25ml vodka x 0.5 alcohol content) of the total mixture, or about 1.8 ml/day (about a 1/3 of a teaspoon per day) in a 7 day mixture.  It sounds small but I know that over time, it adds up.  I don't want to screw this up and make things worse.  I do have a good aluminum splitter and two scales.  I already made the mixture so I'll see how this week works out but perhaps try a pill/liquid for next week.  Thank you Lilyann.  I had the Everclear in my hand and put it back.  There is some sediment that settles to the bottom but I read elsewhere that it's mostly filler and non-benzo product.....but shake it good before each use anyway.  Thank you so much for your advice.  Will let you know how things go this week.
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The alcohol content is constant, if you use vodka your just using more of it then the Everclear. So the consumption of ethanol is the same. The issue for some is the impurity’s of vodka over Everclear. Here are radios  from Slownsteady’s notes.

 

The Recipe

To make 30ml of medicine at 0.125mg/ml of clonazepam I collect the following ingredients:

7.5 x 0.5mg clonazepam tablets or equivalent (3.75mg total)

“10ml of 180/190 proof alcohol OR 25ml of 80 proof alcohol”

filtered tap or distilled water

Using the 10ml graduated cylinder to measure, add the amount of alcohol listed above to the 50ml graduated cylinder.

Add the tablets to the alcohol, and allow them to soak and dissolve.

Allow the alcohol and tablet slurry to soak, stirring occasionally for 20-30 minutes.

Dilute the mixture carefully with water (use the dropper!) to the 30ml line.

Transfer the diluted solution to the medicine bottle, cap and refrigerate.

 

 

 

 

 

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Oh....ok, now I get it.  I had read his post over and over and didn't realize he was supplementing with pills.  I just thought he was on a very low dose and 30ml of solution could get him through for the week, whereas to get a 0.1mg/ml ratio and make the math easy, I needed a minimum of 90 ml to get me through the week so I have to dissolve 9 pills and will use 88 ml of the solution.  Next week would be 8 pills and so on and so on and it did strike me as having to dissolve a lot of pills at one time, although he is dissolving 7.5 pills.  Since I'm still at 1.335 after tonite, I could take a full 1mg pill and the balance would be liquid?  Wouldn't I still have to cut kind of a funky amount to get the right amount for the liquid?  I think I can confidently cut down to a quarter but after that that I had crumbs and pieces and who know what else.  Once I g

et under 1mg per day, what would be the pill to liquid ratio...like .75 pill and the balance in liquid?  Thank you for your patience with all the questions.  I'm honestly reading all the posts and tutorials and watching videos, but it seems like I'm making it harder than it should be?

 

 

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Hi Enufalready2021!

Tapering can be confusing at first! I appreciate TMH and Lilyann for the support they are offering you.

 

Yes, I dose exclusively with a 1ml syringe and a liquid at a concentration of 0.125mg/ml because this is 1/4 of my 0.5mg tablets, and I can't cut them any smaller. If you have 1mg tablets, I suggest considering a concentration of 0.25mg/ml as this will make dosing simpler since your largest liquid dose will be 1ml. A 1ml syringe with 100 gradations is necessary for this approach if you want to do a daily micro taper (DMT).

 

This is how and why I do a liquid/tablet hybrid:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=254653.2#post_hybrid

 

Your pill to liquid ratio and all other math can be solved rather simply by using Jim Hawk's DMT generator. I wrote an instructional with pictures at the end of my tapering notes to help buddies succeed with the schedule generator (mainly by avoiding or correcting a glitch that happens).

 

To do a liquid/tablet hybrid the way the generator suggests (choosing the "Combine with Tablets" option), to dose 1.335mg with 1mg tablets would consist of taking 1.25mg in tablets and 0.085mg in liquid, which if your liquid is 0.25mg/ml I think the generator will tell you to take 0.34ml in liquid.

 

To make a 0.25mg/ml liquid of clonazepam I suggest considering using 40% ethanol. Research shows a maximum saturation rate of clonazepam in 40% ethanol and water as ~0.6mg/ml, which I think leaves a good margin of error for so-called "kitchen sink chemistry".

 

Simply using 7.5 of your 1mg tablets, filling your measuring vessel to the 30ml mark with 80 proof vodka, will create 30ml of 0.25mg/ml at 40% ethanol. For 100 proof vodka, this would be 24ml of vodka and tablets, and then filling your measuring vessel to the 30ml mark with distilled water (or similar), again creating 30ml of 0.25mg/ml at 40% ethanol.

 

I think it's important to mention that liquids made from tablets are untested for stability. I like to keep mine in the refrigerator, and I've used the same liquid batch at 30% ethanol stored this way for up to two months. I strongly suggest treating any liquid made from tablets as a suspension; this means shaking to suspend all the undissolved particles, and immediately drawing a dose from near the middle of the volume of liquid. That's how I use my liquid from tablets, it's an approach that takes very little extra effort and I believe, like a liquid/tablet hybrid, significantly reduces the risk of homemade liquids.

 

I hope this helps!  :thumbsup:

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I main issues is what potency is your pills, Slownsteady’s is using a .5mg so if you split it in 4 part which is easy to do you get a .125mg per 1/4 pill. This part gets confusing if you have 1mg pills so below I break it down.

 

I just saw Slownsteady’s post, here’s a solution based on the .1 solution you had in your last post. Both ways work.

 

 

If you have 1 mg pills then you would take 1.25 in pills and .79ml of a .1mg ml solution 1mg 10ml .1 .solution “ I make small batches” then the next day 1.25 mg pills and .74ml it’s all done with the DMT generator. I put in 6 percent every 14 days. This does all the math for you with the pill amount, with a 1ml syringe with 100 graduation.  http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php

 

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Hi Enufalready2021!

Tapering can be confusing at first! I appreciate TMH and Lilyann for the support they are offering you.

 

Yes, I dose exclusively with a 1ml syringe and a liquid at a concentration of 0.125mg/ml because this is 1/4 of my 0.5mg tablets, and I can't cut them any smaller. If you have 1mg tablets, I suggest considering a concentration of 0.25mg/ml as this will make dosing simpler since your largest liquid dose will be 1ml. A 1ml syringe with 100 gradations is necessary for this approach if you want to do a daily micro taper (DMT).

 

This is how and why I do a liquid/tablet hybrid:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=254653.2#post_hybrid

 

Your pill to liquid ratio and all other math can be solved rather simply by using Jim Hawk's DMT generator. I wrote an instructional with pictures at the end of my tapering notes to help buddies succeed with the schedule generator (mainly by avoiding or correcting a glitch that happens).

 

To do a liquid/tablet hybrid the way the generator suggests (choosing the "Combine with Tablets" option), to dose 1.335mg with 1mg tablets would consist of taking 1.25mg in tablets and 0.085mg in liquid, which if your liquid is 0.25mg/ml I think the generator will tell you to take 0.34ml in liquid.

 

To make a 0.25mg/ml liquid of clonazepam I suggest considering using 40% ethanol. Research shows a maximum saturation rate of clonazepam in 40% ethanol and water as ~0.6mg/ml, which I think leaves a good margin of error for so-called "kitchen sink chemistry".

 

Simply using 7.5 of your 1mg tablets, filling your measuring vessel to the 30ml mark with 80 proof vodka, will create 30ml of 0.25mg/ml at 40% ethanol. For 100 proof vodka, this would be 24ml of vodka and tablets, and then filling your measuring vessel to the 30ml mark with distilled water (or similar), again creating 30ml of 0.25mg/ml at 40% ethanol.

 

I think it's important to mention that liquids made from tablets are untested for stability. I like to keep mine in the refrigerator, and I've used the same liquid batch at 30% ethanol stored this way for up to two months. I strongly suggest treating any liquid made from tablets as a suspension; this means shaking to suspend all the undissolved particles, and immediately drawing a dose from near the middle of the volume of liquid. That's how I use my liquid from tablets, it's an approach that takes very little extra effort and I believe, like a liquid/tablet hybrid, significantly reduces the risk of homemade liquids.

 

I hope this helps!  :thumbsup:

 

I Slownsteady’s formula in the generator and it works out to be easier because you would always be under 1ml. My math you would have to dose at 1mg pills to 2.49 ml making you have to draw up 3 times to do your liquid, but it will still work. Do what’s comfortable, we’re here for you.

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Thanks so much to all of you for your patience and assistance.  Yes, I have 1mg pills.  I will digest all of this and try it out.  I have a pretty long way to go so I have time to get it right.  Just don't want to make a mistake that makes me feel like shit or takes me backwards.  Have a great night.
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Remember that your mixture is 8/2/1 = 1 mg pill plus 2 ml vodka to dissolve plus 8 ml water to round it up to 1 ml. Mix like this and your concentration is always the same.

 

So, you have this strength of mix based on 10, and the use a 1 ml syringe. It will probably have 50 lines on the syringe. You draw with that syringe from the above mixture and a full syringe equals 1 mg or 1 pill. Just make sure to use 1 mg pills.

 

Pull up whatever percentage of mixture that you need for the day. Say, you want .5 mg, then you need half the syringe.

 

Okay. Put that little amount of of medication in a measuring cup, so you can dose. Fill with water up to the one cup line, and you can easily divide that into four 1/4 doses spread over the day, or take it 8 times during the day. Any division at this point. You just use the amount in the one cup measure divided any way you want.

 

Instead of thinking about what can be really complicated math, just make the master mix which never varies. Draw out a daily amount. Mix that daily amount in a measuring cup and add water or Gatoraid or whatever and divide it into how ever many doses you want for the day.

 

Hang in there and try not to stress/worry about the liquid. The thought of doing it can be really frightening, but the reality is not bad at all. I went to liquid at .5 and was desperate and terrified. I rode that .5 down to nothing, and that was two years back. Benzo free and thankful. 

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Hi Lilyann!

 

Remember that your mixture is 8/2/1 = 1 mg pill plus 2 ml vodka to dissolve plus 8 ml water to round it up to 1 ml. Mix like this and your concentration is always the same.

 

This mixture you describe, even with 100 proof vodka, results in a liquid containing ~10% ethanol. Research data on clonazepam indicates that the maximum saturation of pure clonazepam in a solution of 10% ethanol and water is around 0.04mg/ml, which is significantly lower than the 0.1mg/ml your mixture intends to dissolve. Since I think that dissolving tablets with alcohol at-home is not nearly as effective as what was done to get the 0.04mg/ml results, I believe what you are describing is a water suspension of clonazepam, with a dash of alcohol for taste. Maybe 0.02mg/ml clonazepam might dissolve given sufficient agitation and time; certainly not 0.1mg/ml.

 

Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K. Journal of Chemical and Engineering Data, 2008, Washington D.C.: American Chemical Society, pp. 1107-1109. Accessed online at:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc674044/m2/1/high_res_d/Acree%20Pub-479.pdf

 

Okay. Put that little amount of of medication in a measuring cup, so you can dose. Fill with water up to the one cup line, and you can easily divide that into four 1/4 doses spread over the day, or take it 8 times during the day. Any division at this point. You just use the amount in the one cup measure divided any way you want.

 

In this last quote you are describing a step that significantly reduces the ethanol-to-water ratio, which the research data above indicates limits the solubility of clonazepam and this may result in any medicine that has dissolved precipitating out of solution. Even with 100 proof vodka, you're now talking about ~0.42% ethanol, which is pretty much just water. Water alone was found to hold 0.03mg/ml clonazepam, but again, only with pure clonazepam, sufficient agitation and time; for example, I believe the study mentioned used 48 hours.

 

I realized after reading your post that you tapered alprazolam, and may not be familiar with the benefits of both research data and a longer half-life that clonazepam users can take advantage of.

 

I currently am not aware of any data on alprazolam dissolution in ethanol-to-water ratios, and I suspect this is why a water suspension (perhaps with an initial alcohol and tablet wetting stage) has been the method you're familiar with for liquid from tablets. Doing a daily water suspension of benzo tablets seems to have helped many people taper so I'm not knocking it. I personally think we can do better than a water suspension, and that is the reason why I use and maintain a generous ethanol-to-water ratio with the intention to dissolve most if not all of my clonazepam from tablets.

 

There are many ways to make a liquid from tablets, and using a water suspension is one of them that despite its risks has helped people due to it's broad application and limited complexity. However, I'd like to dispel any assumptions about very small ratios of ethanol-to-water creating or sustaining a true solution of benzodiazepines, especially those like clonazepam for which we have research evidence that indicates otherwise.

 

Thanks Lilyann for sharing what has worked for you with alprazolam. FYI, I find speaking from the perspective of personal experience, opinion, or factual evidence can go a long way in terms of not confusing our buddies. I think instructing buddies to do things is prescriptive and misleading as we are not medical providers on our the behalf of our readers.

 

I hope this helps!  :thumbsup:

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Well, since I dose at 9am and 9pm,  I decided to use my concoction for my pm dose last night and for my am dose this morning and for the first time since I started my taper, I don't feel all that great today.  Maybe not a big surprise to you guys that offered so much assistance yesterday?  You don't have to say it  :laugh, the jump from total pills to total liquid was impulsive and not particularly well thought out.  Absorption, metabolism, maybe the vodka didn't agree with me, perhaps the doses were inconsistent or even inaccurate, shock to the system....who knows, but it's back to cutting and filing and then gradually incorporating liquid in smaller doses as per your suggestions when I get down to 1mg.  Thanks again...you guys are great.
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Thanks for the update Enufalready2021!

 

You're living and learning just like the rest of us.

I'm glad you have a familiar tapering method to fall back on.

 

Let us know if there's any way we can help.

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I am sorry you are not feeling well after switching to homebrew liquid.  Can you tell us more about how you prepared your liquid?  Am I correct that you used 9 1mg tablets? How many milliliters of the 100 proof vodka did you use? How much water?
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Yes, I used 25ml of 100 proof vodka and 65 ml of bottled water for a total of 9 x 1mg tablets into 90ml.  I wanted the concentration of 0.1mg/ml.  I ground the pills and as Lilyann suggested, that's not necessary.  Just to experiment today, I dissolved a quarter pill in about an 1ml of vodka and it was dissolved in minutes as well, and for some reason probably better than my crushed pills dissolved.  As long as pill supply does not become an issue, I will be trying a lot of the things that these wonderful people suggested.  If push comes to shove and I have to cut and file and stay dry from here on out, I can do that.  Thanks to all and have a great week.
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I never mixed more than one mg in a batch, but I started at .5 for the liquid taper.

 

When I first found BB, I read a ton of posts. Then, I focused on the posts by members who had tapered off successfully. At that time (and in my opinion), members who were getting off successfully or had tapered off were using or had used DLMT (daily liquid micro taper). With no compounding pharmacy in my area, I did make home brew with help from BB members. 

 

I've never prescribed how anyone should do anything here. I thought message boards were spaces where people shared their experiences. Perhaps there is a scientific study posting only board somewhere that would better suit your needs.

 

I hope you are able to get off K. Benzo dependency is hell.

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You very specifically explained how you did your taper and I very much appreciate it.  Not sure what I posted that would indicate I'd be better off on another board, but if I've offended or posted something inappropriate in any way, please know it was never intended and accept my sincere apology.  Thanks and have a great week.
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You’re welcome, Enufalready2021. Tip of the hat to you for your open-mindedness.  There are many different approaches to tapering; the key is to find what works for you. Speaking of which, please allow me to assure you we have had many members over the years who have successfully discontinued clonazepam using “dry” tapering methods including pill-splitting, pill-shaving, and pill/powder-weighing with digital scales.
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OOps! Yes. I responded to the person posting to me on your thread. Probably should have used the quote function, but it is my opinion that the quote function is generally used in unhelpful ways here.

 

Take your time and check out as many ideas as you can tolerate  :D There are a lot of approaches and a lot of opinions. Also, you can always try something and then do something different if the first (or second or third) thing doesn't work for you. I did dry cut earlier in my taper but reached a point where I could not handle doing that. 

 

Benzos really are hell on the mind and body. It is hard to get off them, but it can certainly be done. Just don't give up. Try something that feels right. If it doesn't work, try something else. Circle back later if need be. And, be very kind to yourself during the process. You need support including from yourself.

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