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Transfer of alcohol and water solutions


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I’m wondering how to transfer 30ml alcohol tablet water solution to a medicine bottle with out rinsing the cylinder and mixing rod of the K residue left behind.?

 

Would I just make the solution to 29ml and swish 1 ml water to get the residual K residue.

 

I’ve looked at bottles with lids that have ml measurement line, so would only use one container, but they don’t have the proper graduation to make them accurate. I’ve seen a video we’re a guy used a piece of tape to mark his designated ml amount on a unmarked jar for dosing. 

 

Seems a little tricky, any help would be appreciated.

 

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This is a good question! It is important in my experience to minimize "transfer loss" by using the minimum number of vessels. I use a 10ml grad cylinder for the alcohol-only measurement, then a 50ml grad cylinder to do both the alcohol and tablet soak, and for the final dilution to 30ml. So the tablets are soaked and diluted in the same vessel, minimizing transfer loss.

 

Since I believe you're trying to make a solution from tablets, and you're using 30% ethanol per volume to create a 0.125mg/ml formula, I can say that it has worked in my experience to stir the 50ml cylinder vigorously (nothing maniacal or anything) and then quickly pour into the medicine bottle (I use a small funnel for speed and accuracy). The dreggs that remain are likely micro crystalline cellulose and other insoluble tablet excipients; while it is nerve wracking to see "something left behind", I've not bothered to rinse and not had any noticeable problems.

 

I would support anyone's efforts to collect these dreggs, if they wanted to, just to be safe.

 

What I would do is wait 30 minute to an hour for the liquid in the medicine bottle to settle; if I've just used alcohol and water, there should be a layer of excipients on the bottom of the bottle and a large excipient-free layer on top of that. I'd just gently pour 5-10ml of the excipient-free liquid off the top of the bottle and into the 50ml grad cylinder (down the stir rod if you want to rinse that too), swish it around, and pour this quickly back into the medicine bottle. This should carry most if not all of the dreggs with it; if not, this can be repeated after waiting for the medicine bottle to settle again.

 

Again, I haven't found this necessary but that's what I'd do if I wanted to get all of it.

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Re: how to prepare your homebrew liquid to minimize drug loss due to surface transfer ... 

 

Here’s one approach to consider.  It’s based on a method described in the article cited below.

 

1. Calibrate the bottle to the desired final volume (in your case 30mL).

    - Measure 30mL of water using the graduated cylinder.

    - Pour the water into the bottle.

    - Mark the bottle at the fill line using a permanent marker.

    - Repeat the above steps to double-check that you have marked the fill line correctly.

2. Add the tablets to the bottle.

3. Measure the target volume of alcohol using the graduated cylinder.

4. Pour the alcohol into the bottle.

5. Shake the bottle until the tablets disperse and a slurry is formed.

6. Add water up to the fill line marked on the bottle.

 

Citation:

 

Wan-Man Ellaria Lee, Ralph A. Lugo, William J. Rusho, Mark MacKay, and John Sweeley. (2004). Chemical Stability of Extemporaneously Prepared Lorazepam Suspension at Two Temperatures. The Journal of Pediatric Pharmacology and Therapeutics: October 2004, Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 254-258. Accessed online at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3469120/pdf/i1551-6776-9-4-254.pdf

 

Libertas,

Thanks for chiming in on this.

 

Unfortunately you've linked to a document which neither describes your approach, nor even how to make a benzo solution in general. The study you link to appears to be the results of creating a lorazepam suspension using Ora-Plus commercial suspension vehicle and then testing it for stability over a 2 month period; not the intended outcome via the use of a solvent.

 

Maybe you linked to the wrong article?

 

Marking the medicine bottle at the 30ml spot and doing the mixing and diluting in-bottle would work to reduce transfer loss, but I think it sacrifices the benefits of graduated cylinders for dilution accuracy. A tall, narrow medicine bottle might be necessary for your suggested approach to be reliable. Still, a good idea to consider and it saves the back-and-forth that my suggestion requires.

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Also just a note, I made a liquid yesterday using 10ml of 180 proof alcohol, soaked tablets for 30+ minutes, stirring occasionally and then I diluted it with vegetable glycerine instead of water. The result was a superior suspension of the excipients, and after a vigorous stirring almost no dreggs were left in the measuring vessel when I poured into the medicine bottle. Plus, after a little shaking the excipients stay well suspended in the medicine bottle for easy dosing. I intend to dose with this new mixture once I'm stable in my cutting again; for lack of mass spectrometry, I have only the "eat this" testing method.  :P

 

I think my current experiment requires 180 proof alcohol to keep the VG percent high enough (i.e. the water content low enough), so this isn't a suggestion for use with vodka THM, just a note of what I'm trying.

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Re: how to prepare your homebrew liquid to minimize drug loss due to surface transfer ... [text color changed to emphasize subject being discussed]

 

Here’s one approach to consider.  It’s based on a method described in the article cited below.

 

1. Calibrate the bottle to the desired final volume (in your case 30mL).

    - Measure 30mL of water using the graduated cylinder.

    - Pour the water into the bottle.

    - Mark the bottle at the fill line using a permanent marker.

    - Repeat the above steps to double-check that you have marked the fill line correctly.

2. Add the tablets to the bottle.

3. Measure the target volume of alcohol using the graduated cylinder.

4. Pour the alcohol into the bottle.

5. Shake the bottle until the tablets disperse and a slurry is formed.

6. Add water up to the fill line marked on the bottle.

 

Citation:

 

Wan-Man Ellaria Lee, Ralph A. Lugo, William J. Rusho, Mark MacKay, and John Sweeley. (2004). Chemical Stability of Extemporaneously Prepared Lorazepam Suspension at Two Temperatures. The Journal of Pediatric Pharmacology and Therapeutics: October 2004, Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 254-258. Accessed online at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3469120/pdf/i1551-6776-9-4-254.pdf

 

*** [deleted incorrect spelling of username]

Thanks for chiming in on this.

 

Unfortunately you've linked to a document which neither describes your approach, nor even how to make a benzo solution in general. The study you link to appears to be the results of creating a lorazepam suspension using Ora-Plus commercial suspension vehicle and then testing it for stability over a 2 month period; not the intended outcome via the use of a solvent.

 

Maybe you linked to the wrong article?

 

Marking the medicine bottle at the 30ml spot and doing the mixing and diluting in-bottle would work to reduce transfer loss, but I think it sacrifices the benefits of graduated cylinders for dilution accuracy. A tall, narrow medicine bottle might be necessary for your suggested approach to be reliable. Still, a good idea to consider and it saves the back-and-forth that my suggestion requires.

 

slownsteady:

 

Oh dear.  You misunderstood the reason I linked to the article (see bolded purple text above). Please read the Methods section starting on page 255.  It describes the method the pharmacists used to prepare a liquid to minimize drug loss.  The rest of the article is irrelevant to the OP’s inquiry.

 

Re: your comments about accuracy and reliability ... might I encourage you to learn more about accuracy and precision related to measuring devices (e.g. graduated cylinders, oral syringes) as well measuring different types of liquids (e.g. solutions, suspensions)?

 

PS Would you be so kind as to correct the typo you made in my username in your original post?  This will ensure it is redacted properly in content available to non-members.

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I appreciate all the great feedback, great points to consider. The one container seems to be the factor that’s important to consistently, yet homebrew seems to remain valid with consistent metrics i.e. the same constant devices to measure liquids each time. Note this is a tablet liquid combo with only .125mg out of my 1.5mg would be liquid.  If I don’t get it right I will the feel a cut or the up dose and adjust accordingly, at least this is my plan since I’ve haven’t done it yet. Hopefully someone gets something out of this thread.

 

The main issue for me is my insurance plan is a closed network so I don’t have the luxury of transferring my prescription out of my network to a compound pharmacy. If there’s a work around for this it would be much appreciated. Will a compound pharmacy allows an unopened prescription to be mailed and processed?

 

Im very curious about the vegetable glycerine, I’m guessing the viscosity is more suitable then water. I have taken note of the 180 proof being important, can you explain why Slownsteady? Wouldn’t the alcohol be a superior solution even know it’s 80 proof, is it due to the water content? Have you tested it at a stable dose for proper absorption?

 

Again I appreciate all the advice and the different view points.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Oh dear.

 

Only my wife gets to call me that. :laugh:

 

Name fixed. Thanks for the clarity on why you mentioned the article.

 

The main issue for me is my insurance plan is a closed network so I don’t have the luxury of transferring my prescription out of my network to a compound pharmacy. If there’s a work around for this it would be much appreciated. Will a compound pharmacy allows an unopened prescription to be mailed and processed?

 

Im very curious about the vegetable glycerine, I’m guessing the viscosity is more suitable then water. I have taken note of the 180 proof being important, can you explain why Slownsteady? Wouldn’t the alcohol be a superior solution even know it’s 80 proof, is it due to the water content? Have you tested it at a stable dose for proper absorption?

 

A 35ml bottle of 0.125mg/ml of clonazepam costs me $35 from a compounding pharmacy, including shipping and lasts me a couple months. My compounding pharmacist is a gem; I think it's worth shopping around for a good one. I didn't know it before but some compounding pharmacies are licensed for multiple states and mail their compounding, including controlled substances like clonazepam. Seems like there should be a directory of these somewhere...

 

I'm curious about VG as well; I can't really say much about it other than the viscosity is very nice and it tastes sweet. I was taught to use 180 proof for the alcohol wetting/initial dissolution stage because it's likely to dissolve the clonazepam faster by having a higher ethanol to water ratio. I'm sure 80 proof works out in the end, especially with a batch that will sit around and soak for a while (unlike a daily liquid discard).

 

To your last question, I've literally never held on liquid at a previously stable tablet dose. Seems like an oversight in my investigations. I've never done this because I don't like taking any more alcohol than I need to; I'm always more inclined to hold when I'm at a tablet-only dose. I guess in my taper thus far, I haven't needed the liquid to be perfectly analogous to the tablets; what I do value is that when I hold on my liquid my withdrawal symptoms are soon ameliorated. I care about this because it's "the brakes", and I care about having some overall control of dosage reduction rate. I seem to have that with my taper. I also don't feel any big cut or anything when I start taking liquid again from tablets, and I've done this four or five times now.

 

Nothing too scientific about this all, but then neither is a $35 milligram scale.  ;)

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I was taught to use 180 proof for the alcohol wetting/initial dissolution stage because it's likely to dissolve the clonazepam faster by having a higher ethanol to water ratio. I'm sure 80 proof works out in the end, especially with a batch that will sit around and soak for a while (unlike a daily liquid discard).

 

TMH: Tip of the hat for welcoming different viewpoints.  As I’m sure you’ve already surmised, there are many ways to taper and many opinions about how to go about it.  To paraphrase Pamster, one of our very wise and experienced forum administrators, tapering is an experiment with each of us serving as our own guinea pig.

 

slownsteady: Thank you for fixing the typo in my username.

 

Although I would welcome evidence to the contrary, I am skeptical that using a higher-proof alcohol has a significant impact on dissolution rate compared to using a lower-proof alcohol.  Assuming that the substance being dissolved exhibits reasonable solubility in the chosen solvent or co-solvents, the primary avenues to increase dissolution rate are decreasing the particle size of the solid, increasing the temperature and/or increasing the stirring/agitation rate (see citation below).

 

The rationale for using a higher-proof alcohol is to increase the amount of active drug substance a given amount of the alcohol will dissolve.  In other words, X milliliters of 90% alcohol will (theoretically) dissolve more milligrams of the active drug substance than X milliliters of 40% alcohol.

 

Thinking about dissolution rate reminds me of another rate makers and users of alcohol-based homebrew liquids might want to keep in mind — that is, the evaporation rate of alcohol over time.

 

Citation:

How to Increase the Dissolution Rate

https://sciencing.com/increase-dissolution-rate-8099113.html

 

 

Thanks for the response Libertas. I really don’t want to make any mistake considering I can’t use a compound pharmacy so I’m left to my own devises. I know from your sig and post I’ve read that you only really trust the tested pharmacy compounds. Like Pamster said I’m my own guinea pig. It’s amazing to me that the system doesn’t take responsibility for there own product and we are reduced to becoming amateur chemist. Something seems wrong about all this. 

 

 

Edit: Fixed quote

 

 

 

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You are welcome, TMH.  It is indeed unfortunate that some individuals have to resort to kitchen chemistry to taper their benzodiazepines. In an ideal world, all individuals would have easy access to affordable, quality-tested, commercially manufactured or professionally compounded benzodiazepines in whatever dosage forms they need to make “small enough” reductions in dose.
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It is indeed unfortunate that some individuals have to resort to kitchen chemistry to taper their benzodiazepines. In an ideal world, all individuals would have easy access to affordable, quality-tested, commercially manufactured or professionally compounded benzodiazepines in whatever dosage forms they need to make “small enough” reductions in dose.

 

Amen! Hopefully we'll get there eventually.

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