How slow can you go?

I saw a Klonopin taper recently that made me wonder if some people are kidding themselves that their tiny cuts do anything. Is there a lower limit on daily reductions past which it is pointless to go? (e.g., could we use the step off dose for Klonopin of 25 micro-grams as a lower bound on daily reductions?)

 

Here's a link to the web site describing the taper.

 

https://benzodrytapermath.com/

 

 

Here's the gist of the above taper:

 

Day 1: 0.125 mg

Day 2: 0.124 mg

Day 3: 0.123 mg

...

 

So we have a linear taper with a 0.001 mg cut.  That's a 1 micro-gram cut, if my math is right.  This is truly a minute amount of substance. I'm not even sure with a cut that small that it is possible for someone to accurately carry out in a kitchen. The only medicine I take that's denominated in micro-grams is thyroid hormone.  I take 175 micro-grams Thyroxine or 175 times the size of the cut in this taper.

 

Your thoughts? Can one make a taper as slow as one wants?  Or is there some lower bound on the daily reductions at which the body sees the two doses (original and reduced) as the same?

Can someone do me a favour and equate that to valium over 10 days (ie a cut n hold size cut), pretty please..

 

 

 

I believe you are looking at Bob7’s taper reduction format that worked for him and many others from what I’ve read. Maybe he could answer your questions. I do believe it all depends on the person, some people that are working very stressful jobs and cannot take off work or quit to taper go extremely slow. They need to do this in order to function and continue to support their family. His taper is somewhat complicated and labor intensive.  You have use his spreadsheet and add another substance to get the weights more accurate, but he does months without at a time. It’s actually a very smart idea for dry tapering with more accuracy for those that want to go very slow at the end. The beginning part of his taper he just cut 1/8 off his tablets for a cut and hold until he got to .125mg, where he started to run into major withdrawal symptoms.

Edgee: This is an interesting topic for discussion.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are wondering if there is a lower limit to the amount of clonazepam/Klonopin a body can meaningfully “register”?  For example, if that lower limit is 0.025mg (or 25 micrograms), then reducing by amounts less than that may be in effect “too low” and may, in turn, make a taper “too slow” (or at least unnecessarily slow).

 

Am I correct that you chose 0.025mg because is that is the equivalent jump dose for clonazepam based on Aston’s recommended jump dose of 0.5mg for diazepam?

 

Cantfly: You’ve raised an important point. That is, different benzodiazepines have different potencies.  Reducing one’s dose of clonazepam by 0.001mg is not the same as reducing one’s dose of diazepam by 0.001mg.

 

Is this what you’re looking for?  This is the taper plan in the original post converted from clonazepam to diazepam (per Ashton’s 1mg of clonazepam = 20mg of diazepam).

 

Day 1:  2.5mg

Day 2:  2.48mg

Day 3:  2.46mg

....

Edgee: This is an interesting topic for discussion.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are wondering if there is a lower limit to the amount of clonazepam/Klonopin a body can meaningfully “register”?  For example, if that lower limit is 0.025mg (or 25 micrograms), then reducing by amounts less than that may be in effect “too low” and may, in turn, make a taper “too slow” (or at least unnecessarily slow).

 

Am I correct that you chose 0.025mg because is that is the equivalent jump dose for clonazepam based on Aston’s recommended jump dose of 0.5mg for diazepam?

 

Libertas Yes.  I question whether the human body can distinguish between two doses of Klonopin that differ by a millionth of a gram.  Cuts this small put me in mind of homeopathy where the active ingredient of a medication may be diluted 1:1,000,000.  Homeopathic remedies are considered biochemically inert, the equivalent of sugar pills. I wonder if something similar is going on with cuts on the order of a micro-gram.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Edgee: This is an interesting topic for discussion.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are wondering if there is a lower limit to the amount of clonazepam/Klonopin a body can meaningfully “register”?  For example, if that lower limit is 0.025mg (or 25 micrograms), then reducing by amounts less than that may be in effect “too low” and may, in turn, make a taper “too slow” (or at least unnecessarily slow).

 

Am I correct that you chose 0.025mg because is that is the equivalent jump dose for clonazepam based on Aston’s recommended jump dose of 0.5mg for diazepam?

 

Cantfly: You’ve raised an important point. That is, different benzodiazepines have different potencies.  Reducing one’s dose of clonazepam by 0.001mg is not the same as reducing one’s dose of diazepam by 0.001mg.

 

Is this what you’re looking for?  This is the taper plan in the original post converted from clonazepam to diazepam (per Ashton’s 1mg of clonazepam = 20mg of diazepam).

 

Day 1:  2.5mg

Day 2:  2.48mg

Day 3:  2.46mg

....

Ta Lib.. (Flu headache now, Cantthink..)

 

***

So.. For V (@ 2.5mg) thats 0.2mg reduction/10 days.. (-%=??)

Or, 1v over 50 days (nearly 2 months) -roughly 6 times faster than my last mg of V..!!

I think overall, at that low dose (importantly), I was kinda inline with the standard Ashton speed, -were it continued to be applied to the very last..

Whats important to me is that it matched my healing of my Direct cut related symptoms..

I found the last “sub-therapeutic” portion of tapering to be very interesting times, the transition onto ones own chemistry, as I put it.. How much was time alone, and how much was reduction increments would be hard to say..

I first jumped at 0.5v but my “overall” long term GI damage wasnt going to have it.. -Some months on 0.25v did the trick..

Now thats very low dose, in a complex multi med situation, -It was what it was..

 

But as I think Edgee is trying to raise, on higher doses (perhaps), are these fine reductions a bit of a moot point..??

I think its individual and situational.. -Bearing in mind BB tends to be a group of self selecting “problematics”, not a representation of everyone that discontinues around the world year in year out..

I also think back to just how strong valium was for me in a benzo “naive” application in the ER..!!

 

Then there is the application of other and onflow problems, a wholistic deviation from homeostasis in its many facets, both med related and not.. Im sure situational or environmental aspects play a role too..

 

Hmmm, Im going to stick with “follow your body’s lead”, mainly for simplicity, as yes, I think there can be some traps to avoid with particularly slow tapering for some people.. Long holds/very slow tapers fighting tolerance symptoms *might* be one.. -Though my opiate experience would counter that, I am slowly adjusting despite severe tolerance/dependance, its just not pretty..

 

Finally.. Do these “tiny” dose (reductions) register..??

-Well, when a spider runs over ones foot, just how much does our neurochemistry change in a fraction of a second, -for such an obviously vivid response (if your anything like me and spiders).. -Food for thought..??

 

 

 

Edgee: This is an interesting topic for discussion.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are wondering if there is a lower limit to the amount of clonazepam/Klonopin a body can meaningfully “register”?  For example, if that lower limit is 0.025mg (or 25 micrograms), then reducing by amounts less than that may be in effect “too low” and may, in turn, make a taper “too slow” (or at least unnecessarily slow).

 

Am I correct that you chose 0.025mg because is that is the equivalent jump dose for clonazepam based on Aston’s recommended jump dose of 0.5mg for diazepam?

 

Libertas Yes.  I question whether the human body can distinguish between two doses of Klonopin that differ by a millionth of a gram.  Cuts this small put me in mind of homeopathy where the active ingredient of a medication may be diluted 1:1,000,000.  Homeopathic remedies are considered biochemically inert, the equivalent of sugar pills. I wonder if something similar is going on with cuts on the order of a micro-gram.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

 

I've written about this from several perspectives over the years, but it what you both write there is at the core of my concerns.

 

When we are on higher doses of benzodiazepine, very little of normal GABA functioning is in place - replaced by ingestion of benzodiazepine. However, so long as we have followed a sensible taper plan, normal or near normal GABA functioning will have returned; a very small dose has only a tiny effect on the system as a whole. There comes a point where GABA system self-regulation makes the presence of a small amount of benzodiazepine moot. If the patient has radically reduced their dose of benzodiazepine, and they feel relatively OK, this demonstrates return of normal GABA regulation. Obsessing is about microgram (one thousandth of one milligram) doses is counterproductive.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=72390.msg973423;topicseen#msg973423

 

My perspective has shifted somewhat since that post of mine in 2013. I have become much more leery of titration methods commonly utilised in the home. But from what I wrote there (and elsewhere at BB), you will understand there that I wholeheartedly agree that obsessive attempts at making minute reductions to dose are not only impossible (in the home), it can be counterproductive to one's psyche.

 

I am curious: will one of the chemists here tell me how many diazepam molecules there are in a microgram?

 

diazepam: 284.74 g·mol⁻¹

I am curious: will one of the chemists here tell me how many diazepam molecules there are in a microgram?

 

diazepam: 284.74 g·mol⁻¹

Okay second attempt here...

 

I'm not a chemist, but it looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 21,149,100,000.

 

I'll show my work this time.

First I get how many moles of diazepam in a microgram...

 

284.74g / 1 mol = 0.000001g / x

(multiply both sides by x)

284.74x = 0.000001

(divide both sides by 284.74)

x = 1/284740000

i.e. 1/284740000 moles of diazepam in a microgram

 

Then I solve for how many molecules in this many moles....

(1/284740000) * (6.022x10²³) = 2.11491x10¹⁵

i.e. 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules in a microgram of diazepam (hopefully!  )

I am curious: will one of the chemists here tell me how many diazepam molecules there are in a microgram?

 

diazepam: 284.74 g·mol⁻¹

Okay second attempt here...

 

I'm not a chemist, but it looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 21,149,100,000.

 

I'll show my work this time.

First I get how many moles of diazepam in a microgram...

 

284.74g / 1 mol = 0.000001g / x

(multiply both sides by x)

284.74x = 0.000001

(divide both sides by 284.74)

x = 1/284740000

i.e. 1/284740000 moles of diazepam in a microgram

 

Then I solve for how many molecules in this many moles....

(1/284740000) * (6.022x10²³) = 2.11491x10¹⁵

i.e. 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules in a microgram of diazepam (hopefully!  )

 

Well, I understood there would be a lot, but did not realise it was that many!

 

Thanks, slownsteady.

That is interesting..!!(??)

Now how many receptors are there, how many molecules required to modulate a single receptor, and how many modulated receptors to effect a noticeable change, a) -in or within normal function, and b) -as a discontinuation “symptom”..!!

-Somewhat rhetorically obviously, but if we could know, wouldnt it be interesting..!!

(Not that it would address the multitude of possible aspects involved with discontinuation..)

 

**Random (morning blurt) thought: I often feel some people view neurochemistry function somewhat like leavers and switches, pipes and valves, or say a singular and direct action/response.. What helped me was viewing it more like a drop of oil on water, the dispersing rainbow sheen that spreads as it will.. -Or perhaps drops of food colouring in water, a bright concentrate initially, but endlessly dispersing, mixing and changing (colour) as it interacts and blends with the array of other constantly fluxing “colours”..

-Or a big high rise under construction (re Parker)..

 

 

I'm happy to help Colin. "Small" mistake in my conversion from the 10^x format to the full length number...

 

It looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 2,114,910,000,000,000 or around 2 quadrillion. I left some zeros off of my previous post; just a factor of one million.  Number like this make me dizzy.

 

Interesting metaphors Cantfly!

I'm happy to help Colin. "Small" mistake in my conversion from the 10^x format to the full length number...

 

It looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 2,114,910,000,000,000 or around 2 quadrillion. I left some zeros off of my previous post; just a factor of one million.  Number like this make me dizzy.

 

Interesting metaphors Cantfly!

 

I thought that's how many you indicated in your previous post?

I'm happy to help Colin. "Small" mistake in my conversion from the 10^x format to the full length number...

 

It looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 2,114,910,000,000,000 or around 2 quadrillion. I left some zeros off of my previous post; just a factor of one million.  Number like this make me dizzy.

 

Interesting metaphors Cantfly!

 

I thought that's how many you indicated in your previous post?

 

I believe the number that is missing a few zeros is indicated in purple below. 

 

Okay second attempt here...

 

I'm not a chemist, but it looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 21,149,100,000.

I'm happy to help Colin. "Small" mistake in my conversion from the 10^x format to the full length number...

 

It looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 2,114,910,000,000,000 or around 2 quadrillion. I left some zeros off of my previous post; just a factor of one million.  Number like this make me dizzy.

 

Interesting metaphors Cantfly!

 

Ah. Yes, I only noticed the first figure and missed the second. Thanks.

I thought that's how many you indicated in your previous post?

 

I believe the number that is missing a few zeros is indicated in purple below. 

 

Okay second attempt here...

 

I'm not a chemist, but it looks like there are 2.11491x10¹⁵ molecules of diazepam in a microgram. i.e. 21,149,100,000.

moles, reminds me of college chemistry.  ugh.

I am one of those people who goes exceedingly slow. I have failed to get off of this crap multiple times (and kindled myself along the way, making it even more difficult to get off) and after my cut and hold taper blew up in my face last time I decided to do whatever it takes this time. I have a bit of a log in my signature for how things went but I went off a cliff of hell when I got to 6mg and had to switch to DLMT. I played with 14-day totals ranging from 2.5-10% and have landed at 3.5% every 14 days being the most tolerable while still making progress for me. 5% was way too much to handle. Seeing how I have gotten down under 6mg without needing constant updoses, it seems to have worked. I am down to .75mg being the exact amount I am scheduled to take tonight and I will be dropping .002mg tonight.

 

It’s really not that difficult to make smaller doses with liquid titration and my 20/80 propylene glycol/distilled water solution works better than the actual stuff from Roxane Labs which I tried and just left me feeling like I was cold turkeyed.

 

I even went to the dentist last week without taking an updose, first of 4 appointments where I felt comfortable enough to try.

 

My original taper plan had me going from 2/2018 to 7/2019 but fortunately my psychiatrist has been totally fine with me extending it because the number is consistently going down. She didn’t believe that microtapering was beneficial at all and refused to let me do it so I made my own solution and then when my dose had a big chunk fall off between the following 3 months after cut and hold leaving me stuck, I told her what I did. Well she’s a believer now! It was looking for awhile like I would not be able to tolerate getting off this drug. Now I’m seeing the end in sight.

 

The mind is a powerful thing. Whether the receptors really know the difference or not, going as slow as I have has worked for me so I don’t really question it. I’m just thankful that I found a way to navigate and I’m almost out of hell.

I am one of those people who goes exceedingly slow. I have failed to get off of this crap multiple times (and kindled myself along the way, making it even more difficult to get off) and after my cut and hold taper blew up in my face last time I decided to do whatever it takes this time. I have a bit of a log in my signature for how things went but I went off a cliff of hell when I got to 6mg and had to switch to DLMT. I played with 14-day totals ranging from 2.5-10% and have landed at 3.5% every 14 days being the most tolerable while still making progress for me. 5% was way too much to handle. Seeing how I have gotten down under 6mg without needing constant updoses, it seems to have worked. I am down to .75mg being the exact amount I am scheduled to take tonight and I will be dropping .002mg tonight.

 

It’s really not that difficult to make smaller doses with liquid titration and my 20/80 propylene glycol/distilled water solution works better than the actual stuff from Roxane Labs which I tried and just left me feeling like I was cold turkeyed.

 

I even went to the dentist last week without taking an updose, first of 4 appointments where I felt comfortable enough to try.

 

My original taper plan had me going from 2/2018 to 7/2019 but fortunately my psychiatrist has been totally fine with me extending it because the number is consistently going down. She didn’t believe that microtapering was beneficial at all and refused to let me do it so I made my own solution and then when my dose had a big chunk fall off between the following 3 months after cut and hold leaving me stuck, I told her what I did. Well she’s a believer now! It was looking for awhile like I would not be able to tolerate getting off this drug. Now I’m seeing the end in sight.

 

The mind is a powerful thing. Whether the receptors really know the difference or not, going as slow as I have has worked for me so I don’t really question it. I’m just thankful that I found a way to navigate and I’m almost out of hell.

 

Hi - Do you calculate your dose each month to keep it at 3.5% every two weeks? Thank you!

 

Edit: fixed quoting.

~Colin.