Crossed to V but feels like an updose - pleas help!

Has anyone crossed over to V but felt like you were updosed and if so was it okay to go lower?

 

I feel like that might have happened to me... Not sure what to do now.

Hey SuperJess!

Diazepam is typically initially more sedating than other medications; this and it's notorious depressing effect are said to dissipate with regular use.

 

Could you describe your "updosed" symptoms?

Hi slow steady I feel extremely sick... Like nauseated 🤢 lethargic, muscle weakness, head pressure, jitters and so much heart palpitations that feels like it's in my head.

 

I was doing well ( even on a full day of no A)  until my final dose of V I took Tues night. 20 mins later I felt sick and I feel worse each time I dose the V....

Hey SuperJess!

 

I'm so sorry to hear how much you're suffering right now. What you're describing sound exactly like withdrawal symptoms; i.e. a lack of sedation, and a hyper-excited nervous system. I would be extremely hesitant to reduce my dosage if I was in your position; I think this would only lead to increased symptoms.

 

I suggest not fixating on the diazepam as the perpetrator of your suffering; if it was, I doubt you would have made it this far in your crossover, and blaming the medicine now seems to distract from your need for what limited support it is giving you.

 

I was just thinking back to our conversation and I remember your psychiatrist or NP was only willing to cross you over to 3mg from 0.38mg of Ativan. According to Ashton (for what it's worth) this is a 21% reduction in equivalent dosages. That's a big hit, if the equivalency is accurate for your situation. I am not surprised you're feeling it, and I'm sorry that this is how your crossover has turned out.

 

I have two suggestions: first, I suggest contacting your prescribing doctor and tell them that the crossover went great until you ended up at only 3mg of diazepam and now you're experiencing significant withdrawal symptoms; my suggested goal would be to get the script increased to 4mg/day of diazepam, and give yourself a week at this dosage to see significant improvements.

 

My second suggestion, should the first not work or be available, would be to hold here at 3mg until you regain functionality. I suggest keeping your eye on the prize: diazepam was tolerated by your body at higher overall benzo doses, and it promises a smoother, gentler, easier taper road ahead of you once you can adjust to this dosage. This may be a week or two of really struggling, but I think you should see improvements after that time period and an eventual return to full functionality.

 

I'm sorry SuperJess! You did your best and you've entered the storm that I was afraid of by the mid-crossover dosage reduction. I wish we could have gotten you a larger script before the crossover, but I think there are two viable ways forward that both have a high chance of success.

 

Let me know if you think you could get your dosage raised to 4mg/day. I'm fairly certain from what you're describing that you're experiencing withdrawal, not an updose.

 

I'll be praying for you! 

Slow and steady you are so sweet it makes me emotional. Getting a higher script is likely not to happen... I'm just not sure why it would have happened on the final week of cross and not sooner... And the symptoms literally happened 20mins after I took the final dose of V for my cross (not after I removed the A) which is why I got fixated on the V.

I guess I will wait and see and hope that my body does adjust. currently just feels like I'm in a MAJOR wave. Yesterday I had a horrible panic attack and SI.

 

Also i meant to message you about a previous message but then got distracted... How r u doing after the B6? I personally can't handle B vitamins they are very revving so I get it. Alot of us are genetically not able to tolerate them because of blocked pathways (like a damn in the river). Have u tried upping your meat/chicken intake to get the B's? You'll know for sure if you're truly low based in your dream recall. If you can't recall them at all.. likely B6. But sometimes it's just WD so hard to say also...

Slow and steady you are so sweet it makes me emotional. Getting a higher script is likely not to happen... I'm just not sure why it would have happened on the final week of cross and not sooner... And the symptoms literally happened 20mins after I took the final dose of V for my cross (not after I removed the A) which is why I got fixated on the V.

I guess I will wait and see and hope that my body does adjust. currently just feels like I'm in a MAJOR wave. Yesterday I had a horrible panic attack and SI.

 

I believe your body is adjusting this very minute; bodies are amazing. I'm so sorry that what you're going through is so difficult right now. Hang in there SuperJess!

 

I was just re-reading our conversation where you planned your crossover. I looks like you worked out a 6-week crossover schedule, with your very clever 0.6 A = 5 V (edited for a decimal error) equivalency ratio, basically spreading your potential dosage reduction over the full six weeks as you moved to the 3mg diazepam dose.

 

I also just double checked your math, and you designed a great schedule. These are the diazepam equivalencies per week, calculated from the Ashton numbers, giving you a pretty smooth week to week transition in dosage based on her chart. Not ideal, taking cuts during a crossover, but an impressive compromise to your doctors demands.

 

Week 1 3.7mg

Week 2 3.6mg

Week 3 3.5mg

Week 4 3.4mg

Week 5 3.2mg

Week 6 3mg

 

You said you started the crossover May 18th; your other post says you finished your taper on Tuesday of last week, three weeks from starting. What happened???

 

Also i meant to message you about a previous message but then got distracted... How r u doing after the B6? I personally can't handle B vitamins they are very revving so I get it. Alot of us are genetically not able to tolerate them because of blocked pathways (like a damn in the river). Have u tried upping your meat/chicken intake to get the B's? You'll know for sure if you're truly low based in your dream recall. If you can't recall them at all.. likely B6. But sometimes it's just WD so hard to say also...

 

I'm completely distracted by the question of how you're done with your 6-week crossover in 3 weeks.... but I wanted to acknowledge this sweet and informative message. I've recovered and I'm tapering well at the moment. I eat a LOT of protein and fat, namely beef, chicken and eggs. I recall MANY dreams every night. I didn't know B6 and dream recall were linked; that's a really interesting piece of information. Two expensive tests had suggested I had low B6 but I am never taking that supplement again. I'm now exploring my gut for answers; I just mailed a third expensive test, this time a comprehensive stool analysis, which should be really telling about if I have leaky gut, parasites, microbe imbalances... gut has been my weakest link for a long time, so I think this was where my doctor and I should have started.

 

But enough about me; it was very kind of you to ask, but I'm much more concerned about you. What happened to your 6-week plan?? 

I was a dummy and thought since the first 2 weeks went so well I could speed it up. The 3rd week went well too but that last cross really got me. It's been 12 days still haven't stabilised. Around day 8 it improved alot and I thought I was in the clear but then went downhill again (granted I do have alot of external stressors in my life). This sucks though I was hoping V would be my answer. It has removed the interdose WD and I sleep longer at night but I have a sickly nauseated feeling all the time along with constant body pulsing/vibrations...I hope it's still just adjusting. I do tend to be super sensitive to changes. I do worry tho if I've screwed myself and if I can heal you know the usual worries. I think I'm going to give myself 1 more week to adjust and then just start my next cut. That will be a 3 week hold. I don't want to hold too long... I'm thinking of trying 0.25mg cut (this is what my pharmacist agreed to anyway). Im really upset at my last conversation w her and I wonder if that triggered me to not stabilize. She told me because I've been in WD so long my symptoms are likely caused by my "negative thoughts". ULGH. If I didn't have a benzo in my system than u can attempt that hypothesis but no I'm in WD and I just switched over a drug. The nerve,!! Anyways sorry for not getting back to you sooner I get in a funk when I don't feel well. Also I would like to ask for your help with a DLMT. I figure if I can get to 2mg then those are whole pills and I'd like to try to finish it all doing a milk taper.... I just need help with the logistics. Thanks for listening to me and supporting me. It helps to have a friend.

I was a dummy and thought since the first 2 weeks went so well I could speed it up. The 3rd week went well too but that last cross really got me. It's been 12 days still haven't stabilised. Around day 8 it improved alot and I thought I was in the clear but then went downhill again (granted I do have alot of external stressors in my life). This sucks though I was hoping V would be my answer. It has removed the interdose WD and I sleep longer at night but I have a sickly nauseated feeling all the time along with constant body pulsing/vibrations...I hope it's still just adjusting. I do tend to be super sensitive to changes. I do worry tho if I've screwed myself and if I can heal you know the usual worries. I think I'm going to give myself 1 more week to adjust and then just start my next cut. That will be a 3 week hold. I don't want to hold too long... I'm thinking of trying 0.25mg cut (this is what my pharmacist agreed to anyway). Im really upset at my last conversation w her and I wonder if that triggered me to not stabilize. She told me because I've been in WD so long my symptoms are likely caused by my "negative thoughts". ULGH. If I didn't have a benzo in my system than u can attempt that hypothesis but no I'm in WD and I just switched over a drug. The nerve,!! Anyways sorry for not getting back to you sooner I get in a funk when I don't feel well. Also I would like to ask for your help with a DLMT. I figure if I can get to 2mg then those are whole pills and I'd like to try to finish it all doing a milk taper.... I just need help with the logistics. Thanks for listening to me and supporting me. It helps to have a friend.

 

I'm so glad to hear from you again SuperJess! I've been worried and I almost PM'd you the other day, but I hoped you were focused on recovery and I worried maybe I'd struck a nerve pointing out your rushed crossover.

 

I'm sorry your psychiatrist (I think that's who you called your pharmacist) is so unaware of your struggle and needs. I often advocate switching doctors when their attitude is this un-supportive, but I know that's not an option for everyone and can add more challenges to an already difficult situation.

 

From what you've described I'm fairly certain that your first weeks of crossover went so well because you tolerate V. I'm also fairly certain that you're now feeling the mid-crossover cut that was planned to be taken over a further three weeks; it sounds like you took at least half that 21% cut all at once, while still waiting for the V to build up it's therapeutic strength. Yikes.

 

I suggest having faith and giving yourself whatever time you need to stabilize before cutting again. I don't think it's going to get easier throwing another reduction into the mix. Your body is designed to heal, and it's healing while you hold on a medicine that you say has proven to resolve a number of your earlier tapering problems. To my mind, now is the time to earn those benefits by holding tight!

 

Withdrawal anxiety tells us to rush; but you learned recently what rushing causes in this benzo tapering process. If you're still unstable in a week, and you're being told to cut, I suggest sharing your ongoing symptoms and asking for another week. If your doctor isn't willing to work with you based on your ongoing symptoms, how can they call themselves a doctor? The "it's probably just in your head" gimmick seems to warrant a class-action malpractice lawsuit; I got that gag pulled on me over ten years ago and thus I never again shared my pain disorder until it started to cripple me eight years later.

 

I've never done a milk taper myself, but I would be more than happy to help you work out the math for one. Maybe a new thread on the titration board? Send me a PM if I miss it.

 

But right now it sounds like your job is self-love and self-care.

You can do this! 

Do you think so? (That I'll stabilize?) I am so symptomatic right now (even new ones I didn't have before). I just worry it sucks. I wish I was more patient but like everyone I hate this stuff. You've been on these boards for a whike have u seen people stabilize after making mistakes like I did? I wonder how long it will take... Some people take a month but some don't stabilize at all and have to just keep cutting.. Like how do I know if that will be me?

I was thinking of cutting 0.25mg every 2 weeks for 2 months to get from 3 mg to 2mg then doing a 100 or 120ml milk taper for the remaining 2mg taking out 1ml /day. (Then dealing with the zopiclone). Off course this is how I hope it will go.. but everytime I plan something it fails in WD so I'm so discouraged either way. Like I cant help but be disappointed at myself for rushing the crossover and also for not adjusting to the volume as quickly as I'd hoped. I hope it wasn't a mistake to switch. Yours is going really well though I can't believe in a few months like you've managed to get down a milligram that's amazing. What test are you going to do is it the diagnostic solutions poop test?

Do you think so? (That I'll stabilize?) I am so symptomatic right now (even new ones I didn't have before). I just worry it sucks. I wish I was more patient but like everyone I hate this stuff. You've been on these boards for a whike have u seen people stabilize after making mistakes like I did? I wonder how long it will take... Some people take a month but some don't stabilize at all and have to just keep cutting.. Like how do I know if that will be me?

 

Yes I am fairly certain that you will stabilize, if you can stay in one place long enough. I'm relatively new to BB, but I'm old friends with suffering and mental instability. The body and mind have an amazing capacity for healing; often it seems to me that illness is rooted in a continued obsession with action, and healing waits for a willingness to accept and rest.

 

The experiences involved in tapering benzos can be so intense that I think it's easy to forget that we are on the journey of an entire lifetime. Benzodiazepine won't be the end of suffering for any of us; it will only be a gateway to the next trial and the next. The future remains mysterious at every turn; there is no end in sight to the questions and challenges that await us. Why rush?

 

I see your experience now as an opportunity challenging you to trust your body, and to allow a healing process to take place. Maybe now is the right time for you to allow healing; or maybe you'll try rushing to action again and that will be okay too. But I suggest cultivating trust in your body's capacity to heal; then even if you're still rushing, you'll be looking for healing from where I think it truly comes: from inside ourselves.

 

Yours is going really well though I can't believe in a few months like you've managed to get down a milligram that's amazing.

 

In a months time I will have cut my original dose in half in about 6 months; that's a 5% taper. The next 6 months may reward me with a further reduction of half, which will only be by 0.5mg that time. The next 6 months may offer a reduction of 0.25mg, and it will go on beyond that. I am on a slow road to recovery. Thank you for your encouragement; I do treasure my milestones.

 

I think your progress is very impressive; you've no doubt faced incredible challenges and I don't hear you getting the credit you deserve, perhaps because the bar is set too high in your mind. No one caught firmly in the benzo web dances out with a jump and a wink; recovering from these drugs pushes some of us to our absolute limits, and beyond them! I think if it's hard, you're doing something difficult, not doing something wrong; you deserve to feel good for what you've survived and know that this strength in you will be there for you for the next challenge. This is the silver-lining of any adversity: personal growth.

 

I suggest holding as long as it takes. Our lives have so many other facets, resources and opportunities. I suggest leaning on gentle, natural solutions for care and comfort, and telling yourself positive stories about who you are and how brave you are in these moments of incredible suffering and learning.

 

I hope I haven't over-philosophized you. I get the sense that positive mental stories would go a long way in helping you to feel better about this and other circumstances in your life, and so I indulged in sharing a few of my own.

 

I do believe that stability will come to you in time, and that neurological stability is urgently needed for you right now; if I had just crossed over as you have, I'd be trying to get my dosage raised to 4mg/day to pick up the slack. Focusing now on tapering seems a recipe for greater suffering, and I hope you will consider taking unstable reductions with extreme caution.

 

Let me know if there's anything more we can do to help you. And keep us posted if you're able!

I'll be praying for you SuperJess!