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Is this Tapering okay?


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Hi guys,

After holding 0.25mg K for around 8 days I finally started my taper. *Fingers crossed*

Please check if it's okay.

 

Tools of taper:

- 10 ml syringe with needle

- Little empty sterilised injection glass bottle

- 0.25mg Clonazepam ODT

 

I aimed for 5% dose reduction per 5 days or 10% dose reduction per 10 days. (Seeing how it goes and then will adjust the duration accordingly)

Doing once a day dosing at night. I'm not doing Daily Micro Tapering.

 

Steps:

I took 10ml water in the syringe.

Then transferred that in the glass bottle.

Dropped the tablet in the bottle containing water.

Shaken the bottle so it mixed and there is suspension.

 

Finally, removed 0.5ml (5% of the dose) out of the mixture using syringe.

Discarded it.

Drank the remaining mixture.

Filled the bottle with plain water again.

And drank the rinse water.

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Hello paxanimi,

A number of details of your tapering plan don't line up with my experience or knowledge about tapering clonazepam.

 

First of all clonazepam has an average half-life of 35 hours. This means a reduction in medicine takes an average of 9 days to be fully realized in the body; i.e. by 9 days all previous larger doses have been eliminated by the liver. Typically, a two-week hold time seems necessary for clonazepam reductions, to allow both the peak of withdrawal symptoms and a recovery to full functionality. If the cut is too large, sometimes longer than two weeks is required. If this cut is smaller, maybe 10 days is all that's necessary; waiting less than 10 days before taking subsequent reductions seems rushed to me.

 

Clonazepam does not readily dissolve into water. It has been shown to dissolve, with very great effort, long wait times and pure clonazepam, at low concentrations (0.03mg/ml). What you describe creating is likely a suspension of undissolved clonazepam in water, and water is not a great suspending vehicle; this is likely to result in inaccurate reductions. To improve your chance of making at least a partial dissolution, a very small amount of strong alcohol can be used to "wet" the tablets, in a preliminary stage of just alcohol and tablet(s). I suggest 180 proof alcohol, 0.75ml per 0.25mg K, and allowing this to dissolve the tablet(s) into a slurry for 20-30 minutes of occasional stirring before diluting with water to your desired volume. I do this alcohol soaking stage in the primary measuring vessel for ease.

 

The more water you dilute to, the more accurate your measurements will be. 10ml is a very small amount of water, and seems to leave you vulnerable again to reduction inaccuracies. For daily liquid discarding, I typically I suggest a minimum of 50ml, and 300ml is not unreasonable. This requires some larger syringes, but it dramatically reduces the margin of error caused by inaccurate measuring tools, the tips of syringes, and other mess-ups that happen with daily measuring.

 

I agree with trialing a 5% reduction, but I suggest a 2-week hold time. I also agree with your drink, rinse and drink method to make sure you clear any medicine clinging to your measuring vessel.

 

Would you consider modifying your approach?

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Hi slowsteady,

 

paxanimi provided very wise and what I would consider very correct advice.  paxanimi knows "how to do a good taper" based on a combined amount of experience.

 

That said, I do not want to discourage you from "flying on your own" when it is working for you.

 

You clearly are smart enough to try new methods.  Your descriptions for what you are doing are clear and so seem intelligent so I am not worried about you - you will find a way to be successful.  I do want to add some comments to also support what paxanimi said but also add of out of the box thinking.

 

First, it appears the first time you had benzos was only a few months ago.  You have a chance to get off quickly and if you can, you should. You see, long tapers are good for long term benzo users.  But very short term benzo users, well, the taper time might extend your dependence on the drug.

 

Second, I am concerned you are missing a core recovery topic.  You got on benzos for a reason.  Probably due to anxiety and you didn't have "non-drug" tools to fight the anxiety.  Now  that you are getting off the benzo, you have BOTH the original anxiety issues AND your benzo withdrawal causes anxiety.  You must learn "non-drug" ways to deal with your anxiety.  You can google or youtube search for non-drug anxiety help.  Do it.  Also, if you can, see a phycologists (they do not give drugs, only natural help).

 

You must learn to deal with anxiety and panic naturally or your withdrawal will be confusing (you might be having normal anxiety but blaming the withdrawal).

 

 

 

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Hi slowsteady,

 

paxanimi provided very wise and what I would consider very correct advice.  paxanimi knows "how to do a good taper" based on a combined amount of experience.

 

That said, I do not want to discourage you from "flying on your own" when it is working for you.

 

You clearly are smart enough to try new methods.  Your descriptions for what you are doing are clear and so seem intelligent so I am not worried about you - you will find a way to be successful.  I do want to add some comments to also support what paxanimi said but also add of out of the box thinking.

 

First, it appears the first time you had benzos was only a few months ago.  You have a chance to get off quickly and if you can, you should. You see, long tapers are good for long term benzo users.  But very short term benzo users, well, the taper time might extend your dependence on the drug.

 

Second, I am concerned you are missing a core recovery topic.  You got on benzos for a reason.  Probably due to anxiety and you didn't have "non-drug" tools to fight the anxiety.  Now  that you are getting off the benzo, you have BOTH the original anxiety issues AND your benzo withdrawal causes anxiety.  You must learn "non-drug" ways to deal with your anxiety.  You can google or youtube search for non-drug anxiety help.  Do it.  Also, if you can, see a phycologists (they do not give drugs, only natural help).

 

You must learn to deal with anxiety and panic naturally or your withdrawal will be confusing (you might be having normal anxiety but blaming the withdrawal).

 

Hi Bob7; did you get paxanimi and my user names mixed up?

 

Your first and second comments seem to contradict each other. In the first you say that if paxanimi can go faster he "should". And in your second comment, you point out the need for psychological skill-building, which in my experience can take a long time to develop.

 

Also, while I deeply honor your commitment and contributions to the forum, posts of yours recently have often contained prescriptive statements. Telling paxanimi if he can taper faster he "should", telling paxanimi to search for non-drug anxiety help and "Do it.". "You must..." was also used twice in this post.

 

I get the goal of helping people, and I get the urgency to communicate your insights and what you hope will help buddies; I disagree with using prescriptive language.

 

I hope this feedback helpful and not hurtful to you Bob7. I also want to give forum members clarity that our goal as buddies is peer-support. We do not know the intricacies of anyone's specific situation, and we each are responsible for our own health decisions.

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Your math and your method look ok to me, paxanimi.  Tip of the hat for recognizing that your homebrew liquid (a) is a suspension so it’s important to shake it well before measuring out your reduction and (b) may not be stable so making a small batch is less risky than making a larger batch and storing it for more than a few days.

 

I agree with Bob7:

 

“... it appears the first time you had benzos was only a few months ago.  You have a chance to get off quickly and if you can, you should.”

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I think some names were switched up there so it was a little confusing to follow. I also agree with bob7 and libertas.  You only took benzos for a short time so taking a year or so to taper off may seem unnecessary, but if you’re having severe and intolerable sypmtoms then you may need to take a long and slow taper. If you find symptoms are manageable with a rapid taper I would suggest trying that first.  Unfortunately no one knows how they will react until they try. At one point in my life I took between 3-4mgs of Ativan a day for almost a decade straight. Stopped cold turkey along with alcohol simultaneously and had no withdrawal symptoms. Then a little over two years later I reinstated with my leftover pills  for panic attacks (I was prescribed 4mg Ativan a day, but only took 3 for the last year). Took about 3-4 mgs a day again as I was previously prescribed, but this time when I stopped all hell broke loose. Fortunately there are many people who have rapidly tapered or c/t their benzo and had very little problems. Unfortunately the people on this site are not those people, or they were at some point (like myself), but when they started the medication again it was a whole different ball game when trying to quit. . Kindling is thought to play a major role in this but has not been proven.  My point is that if I were you then I would try a faster taper and see how it feels. That’s the only way you will know. If it doesn’t work out then you can go the 5-10% every 2 weeks like most of us around the forum, but that takes a long time. Many new  members are not told this at the beginning ( my guess is to not scare them or deter them away from tapering and rightfully so), but once you do the math it takes over a year to taper at the maximum recommended rate of 10% every two weeks from .5mg of clonazepam. That is without and holds along the way. If I were you I would try a faster taper and avoid  further dependence on the drug. If it doesn’t work out then you can taper slower.  That just what I would do.
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I disagree that the benefits of trialing a rapid taper so soon after instating on benzos outweighs the risks. I understand that benzodiazepine is neurotoxic, but it also serves as a psychological support system for individuals who lack the skills to down-regulate their nervous system. Encouraging a short-time user to rapidly taper off seems both insensitive to the original need for medical support and risky for the taperer. Giving this advice prescriptively, seems also to violate the guidelines of the forum and is misleading someone in a vulnerable position.

 

I know staying on benzos for a time as a medical support may not be a popular opinion on a benzo tapering site, but this is not an anti-benzo site.

 

Yes, many of us have rapidly tapered and successfully. But what stands out to me is that in those instances, many of us have used benzos for extended periods of time (TouchdownIrish took Ativan therapeutically for a decade, per his previous post), before rapidly tapering. I don't see that any of us besides paxanimi could possible have enough information to suggest, much less insist, that they "should" rapid taper their medication; even experimentally. There is no evidence being given that the neuroplasticity needed to rapid taper will disappear somewhere in the first few months of use, or while doing a slow taper. And it was paxanimi who suggested a 5-10% taper rate, as per their original post.

 

I am concerned by the responses on this thread. I'm also having a hard day. So I hope you all will forgive me if I've pushed some buttons, and also consider that we are a peer-support group and need to be careful not to encourage reckless actions, especially amongst newer members.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

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Slownsteady, I’m sorry to hear that you’re having a hard day. I know they suck. I was just suggesting what I would do if I were in paxanimi’s position. I’m not trying to insist he do anything. If I did I apologize. I was only relating to my previous experiences and suggesting what I would do in that situation.

 

I agree with much of what you have said. The risks are potentially great and severe. I’m not telling him to do it. I was just stating what I would try first if I was in his situation.  If he is comfortable doing the long and slow method of tapering than I fully support that.  It is very unfortunate that the only way to know is to try for oneself. 

 

You haven’t pushed any of my buttons and I appreciate your helpful and thorough suggestions. I believe you’re a good asset to the community. You are correct that we are here to help each other.  I was merely suggesting what I would do in a situation where the meds were short term and relatively small dose (compared to many on this site, like yourself). I think paxanimi would know in a fairly short time if the rapid taper would be too much to handle. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is see unnecessary suffering, but sometimes and in certain cases a risk might be worth it. Just my personal thoughts on the matter.

 

I was only saying what I would do in his situation.  Maybe if he chimes in we can know a little more of his situation.

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After re reading his post and signature it seems he may be best suited for a longer taper, but the signature does state he went from .5 to .25 and was holding there until recently dropping a little further.  He did not state how difficult the 50% drop was, but he was holding there and began to taper more, suggesting it wasn’t unbearable.  If he dropped that much and was able to be functional doing so that is a great accomplishment. I doubt if he dropped 50% and it was too much that he would continue to taper instead of holding or updosing. This suggests just maybe he can taper a little faster than most of us, but only he knows.
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I see the name mix-up caused some issues but it looks like things are back on track, I also agree with Libertas and TouchdownIrish that at least initially it might be possible to try doing this a little faster given the short time paxanini was on first the Alprazolam and then the Clonazepam.  I'm glad to see paxanimi has been given options by members, that way he can make an informed decision about the way forward.

 

I agree there were prescriptive comments made, a brief review of paxanimi's introductory post lets me know that the benzo's were prescribed as an adjunct medication for Covid-19 so there is no chronic anxiety that needs addressing.  Regardless, we don't tell members what they must or must not do, this is against our policy. 

 

We all want to help each other and sometimes even team members can bump up against policy in our efforts to help.  I know I've been called out by members and I'm appreciative as long as it's done respectfully which this was.

 

I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to offer guidance to paxanimi.

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Slownsteady, I’m sorry to hear that you’re having a hard day. I know they suck. I was just suggesting what I would do if I were in paxanimi’s position. I’m not trying to insist he do anything. If I did I apologize. I was only relating to my previous experiences and suggesting what I would do in that situation.

 

I agree with much of what you have said. The risks are potentially great and severe. I’m not telling him to do it. I was just stating what I would try first if I was in his situation.  If he is comfortable doing the long and slow method of tapering than I fully support that.  It is very unfortunate that the only way to know is to try for oneself. 

 

You haven’t pushed any of my buttons and I appreciate your helpful and thorough suggestions. I believe you’re a good asset to the community. You are correct that we are here to help each other.  I was merely suggesting what I would do in a situation where the meds were short term and relatively small dose (compared to many on this site, like yourself). I think paxanimi would know in a fairly short time if the rapid taper would be too much to handle. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is see unnecessary suffering, but sometimes and in certain cases a risk might be worth it. Just my personal thoughts on the matter.

 

I was only saying what I would do in his situation.  Maybe if he chimes in we can know a little more of his situation.

 

Sorry TouchdownIrish, I should have been more clear. Bob7's statement regarding a quicker taper was prescriptive; yours was not. I do understand that you are frustrated with the slowness of the taper you are on, and that you would go faster if you could. This doesn't necessarily mean that's appropriate in paxanimi's situation, but I appreciate you sharing your experience and thoughts.

 

My point was that paxanimi will likely have plenty of time to speed up his taper, if that's what he'd like to do. Testing the waters with a 5-10%/14 day taper is considered safe. Encouraging buddies to start with a rapid taper seems reckless.

 

I think asking questions would be the best way to find out more about paxanimi, if that's your goal. I always appreciate your help around the forums. Thanks for your concern.  :thumbsup:

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I agree there were prescriptive comments made, a brief review of paxanimi's introductory post lets me know that the benzo's were prescribed as an adjunct medication for Covid-19 so there is no chronic anxiety that needs addressing.  Regardless, we don't tell members what they must or must not do, this is against our policy. 

 

We all want to help each other and sometimes even team members can bump up against policy in our efforts to help.  I know I've been called out by members and I'm appreciative as long as it's done respectfully which this was.

 

I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to offer guidance to paxanimi.

 

Thanks for your inclusive oversight Pamster!

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Yes yes yes.

I did mix the names up.

Sorry it caused so much concern.

That will cost you 1 push up and 2 star jumps.. -no cheating..

 

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Thank you guys for all your replies.

You don't know how much the support of buddies on this forum means to me.

 

I wish there was a diagnostic test to measure the degree of benzodiazepine dependence.

 

Ever since the taper started most of the shortness of breath seemed to have gone.

There was some tachycardia the first day after dose reduction but from the next day onwards the heart rate have started to stabilize. Yes there are some mild wd sxs. But they too go away once i start distracting my mind by interacting with people around.

 

I just love this forum and how people here help newbies like me. There's so much that can be learnt by simply interacting with other members here which would take weeks if not months if a person goes on his/her tapering journey all alone.

 

Love you guys.

 

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On behalf of all of us you are very welcome.

 

Each time I read your posts I feel more and more like you have a good chance that you're not too dependent yet.

 

So just keep learning non-drug ways to deal with your issues and I think you might attempt a relatively fast taper.  Remember those new tools will need to be with you for life or anytime your life gets stressfully complicated.

 

Before anyone slaps me for saying relatively fast taper let me explain that.  I think you should journal what's going on each day and reflect on your journal to control the speed of your taper.  I'm just predicting the speed will be faster than most people can handle because you're not as addicted as most.  But let your symptoms be the guide to your speed.

 

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Hey paxanimi,

 

The only test that I know of for how well your body can recover from a dosage reduction is a dosage reduction and an observation of symptoms. A "safe" reduction, typically described as between 5-10%/14 days, is slow but much more likely to be well tolerated, and I am not aware of any concrete evidence that continued benzo use such as during a slowly taper "extends" or increases physical dependence on the medication after weeks of regular use.

 

As others are saying, I agree that you may be able to go faster than most benzo buddies; but how to proceed in investigating what your specific reduction rate is seems extremely important. Claims that you should taper quickly if at all possible don't give much information on how to go about this safely.

 

Not having a history of chronic anxiety diagnoses doesn't, to my knowledge, protect anyone from benzo withdrawal or exclude the possibility of underlying chronic anxiety. I have been led to believe that difficulties in reducing dosage has to do with neuroplasticity, far more so that dosages or usage patterns or medical history. Neuroplasticity, it seems has a variety of limiting factors such as age, ongoing inflammation, and stress-responses.

https://www.balancingbrainchemistry.co.uk/peter-smith/146/Accelerate-Benzo-Withdrawal-by-Increasing-GABA-A-Receptors-Natural-Treatment.html

 

I suggest starting with a reduction between 5-10%, and after a minimum of 10 days and full recovery from withdrawal symptoms, then I'd suggest trying an increased reduction rate.

 

I agree with Bob7's suggestion to keep a journal, with a minimum of the date, dosage and symptoms. I suggest using this kind of self-observation and gradual reduction rate increases to find the fastest rate at which you are remaining functional and able to recover fully between reductions. I still suggest a 10-14 day minimum hold time throughout your taper; in my experience it just takes that long for clonazepam to be eliminated and the full effects of the reduction to be felt, even in a short-term user.

 

I hope my suggestions on the inclusion of an alcohol wetting stage and larger dilution of water were worth considering. Keep us posted!  :thumbsup:

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Your kind comments are much appreciated, paxanimi .

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Bob7’s comment about the importance of keeping a journal.  Two keys to a successful taper are discovering your unique-to-you taper rate as well as your withdrawal pattern (i.e., how long it takes for withdrawal symptoms to emerge and then stabilize after a reduction). Keeping a journal will give you the data you need to make such discoveries. (If you’re interested in learning more about setting up a taper journal, I’ve included a link below.)

 

After thinking more about your case, three additional comments:

 

(1) To make math and measuring easier, you might consider adding 25mL of water (preferably distilled or purified) to your 0.25 Orally Disintegrating Tablet (ODT).  This will give you a liquid with a concentration of 0.25mg/25mL = 0.01mL.  From a math perspective, units of 0.01 are easier to work with than units of 0.025 (the concentration of your 0.25mg ODT in 10mL liquid).  From a measuring perspective, working with 25mL is easier than 10mL (10mL is not much liquid, especially when measuring small amounts).

 

(2)  You may wish to consider using a 1mL syringe with graduations (marks) every 0.01mL (or 0.02mL).  This would allow you to make smaller reductions if needed.

 

(3)  Member Warriette successfully completed a taper using a homebrew liquid made with clonazepam ODTs and water in 9/2020.  Member Intend to be off uses a homebrew liquid made with clonazepam ODTs and whole fat, homogenized milk. (An advantage of using ODTs to make a homebrew liquid is they are designed to disintegrate/disperse quickly in liquid; regular tablets are not.)

 

Link:

Setting Up a Taper Journal | The Withdrawal Project

https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/taper/step-19-setting-taper-journal

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Paxanimi, how bad were your symptoms when you went from .5 to .25? That is a big time drop. Were  you feeling bad then it got better, hence the continuation of the taper? I’m just wondering because if you cut your dose at 50% of your dose initially and were able to barrel through the symptoms and gain functionality that is great. It suggests to me that you may be able to do a quicker taper than most. I’m not telling you to go fast, but if you were able to tolerate a 50% drop as your initial cut that may indicate you have the ability to go quicker than most here.

 

 

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TouchdownIrish my body was able to adapt quite quickly from 0.25mg

0.5mg K seemed quite strong for me when I was given K as a substitute for X.

I'm quite comfortable at 0.25mg

It's only when I dropped from 0.25mg to 0.125mg that I started to experience WD.

Perhaps 0.125mg and below is quite a low dose when WD symptoms show up intensely.

I read Bob7 too had difficulty from 0.125mg onwards.

Taper from 0.125mg K needs to be discussed on benzobuddies. Those who had come off K need to share their experience while they were at that dose as it'd help others who are tapering.

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