Mutiple Tapers/long haulers/high dosages

Thank you baddove for taking the time to read my post and express your advice and opinion. I do think, know actually, that my brain is damaged from the last taper plus tapering lexapro at the same time. However, I will try to get off again. You're right in that it's not wise to cut while in fear. I'll put off the cut I was planning to do today for next Sunday. Hoping we all have a better day tomorrow.

 

PS: This is my fifth time coming off benzos, counting tapers and cold turkeys, so I'm not new to this.Little did I know during those years that going on and off would be much worse than just staying on the medication.

VNM,

I have a question for you. I built up a tolerance to Xanax and even had paradoxical symptoms so I had to taper, otherwise I might still be on it. My question is: since you have gotten off benzo's 5 times, do you regain your ability to 'feel' them work? I mean, if I have to have surgery someday, will the benzo's work even though I built up a tolerance? When you went back on benzo's each time, was your tolerance lower?

I'd like to be able to take a Xanax before surgery some day, if I have to. I'm just wondering if I will be able to since only 4 months ago, a 2mg tab of Xanax wouldn't do anything but 'cause' paradoxical symptoms.

 

Thanks, in advance, and I wish you the very best with your taper,

 

HM

Thank you baddove for taking the time to read my post and express your advice and opinion. I do think, know actually, that my brain is damaged from the last taper plus tapering lexapro at the same time. However, I will try to get off again. You're right in that it's not wise to cut while in fear. I'll put off the cut I was planning to do today for next Sunday. Hoping we all have a better day tomorrow.

 

PS: This is my fifth time coming off benzos, counting tapers and cold turkeys, so I'm not new to this.Little did I know during those years that going on and off would be much worse than just staying on the medication.

VNM,

I have a question for you. I built up a tolerance to Xanax and even had paradoxical symptoms so I had to taper, otherwise I might still be on it. My question is: since you have gotten off benzo's 5 times, do you regain your ability to 'feel' them work? I mean, if I have to have surgery someday, will the benzo's work even though I built up a tolerance? When you went back on benzo's each time, was your tolerance lower?

I'd like to be able to take a Xanax before surgery some day, if I have to. I'm just wondering if I will be able to since only 4 months ago, a 2mg tab of Xanax wouldn't do anything but 'cause' paradoxical symptoms.

 

Thanks, in advance, and I wish you the very best with your taper,

 

HM

 

Hi Hearmost! I'm happy to read your post in this group. I never knew if this ever got paradoxical for me. I always struggled to believe that paradoxical even existed but now that I read you and some other buddies I believe in it. It hasn't happened to me. When I quit valium in previous ocasions, without knowing I was kindling myself, I went back to it whenever my worst lifelong symptom set in again: insomnia due to CPTSD due to a very, very crappy childhood. This makes me be very good at handling certain stressful situations, while freaking out very easily in other situations that wouldn't be too stressful for others. The worst was insomnia though. So I always went back to 5 mgs valium to get my sleep back. And I did. Except through a terrible divorce when I didn't sleep even with the valium and instead of upping the dose I went on lexapro. I don't recommend that either but that's my opinion. So the valium did work. Still, to this day, I'm only on 1.60 and I think it still does something but of course I'm also on gabapentin and trazodone so maybe it doesn't. Having said this, if and when I end this taper and finish with the drug, I never ever plan to take another benzo, valium or any other, regardless of the circumstances. People went through wars in the past with no benzos and we are their descendants, we come from them, we have their same teeth, feet and brains, so if they could deal with life without benzos  we can too.I'm too scared of benzos to go back on them if I ever come off. I see the words "acute wd" written very often and I think oftentimes people say this just because they're feeling a lot of sxs but their not really in acute. For some reason in summer of 2019 I went into that state and stayed there for two months. I can't even begin to describe it nor do I want to, but for those who've really been in that state for months, and I was, the drug becomes so terrifying that if we ever come off I think we won't take it again. At least that's what I think now, September 2021.

VNM,

 

Thank you for the response. Yes, it's true that back in late April 2021, even a 2mg Xanax wouldn't work for me. It just made my heart pound and made me anxious. That's the only reason I am tapering off. Because it quit working miracles for me. You make a good point about never wanting to take it again. I am so anxious in the morning (and through the rest of the day, but not as bad) that I am taking your advice on another thread and slowing down my taper. I also have had a horrifically difficult life so I am anxious regardless.

 

I guess I just need to adjust to life without Benzo's. I'm thinking of asking my Dr. for Vistaril to help with anxiety. It's nowhere near as potent as Benzo's but maybe it will help.

 

Thanks, again for the response,

 

HM

VNM,

 

Thank you for the response. Yes, it's true that back in late April 2021, even a 2mg Xanax wouldn't work for me. It just made my heart pound and made me anxious. That's the only reason I am tapering off. Because it quit working miracles for me. You make a good point about never wanting to take it again. I am so anxious in the morning (and through the rest of the day, but not as bad) that I am taking your advice on another thread and slowing down my taper. I also have had a horrifically difficult life so I am anxious regardless.

 

I guess I just need to adjust to life without Benzo's. I'm thinking of asking my Dr. for Vistaril to help with anxiety. It's nowhere near as potent as Benzo's but maybe it will help.

 

Thanks, again for the response,

 

HM

 

Vistaril helped me a tiny bit when I was much worse than now, but when I reached a very bad place, what I needed was a

good long hold. I guess it doesn't work for everyone but that's my experience to remain functional.

VNM,

 

Thank you for the response. Yes, it's true that back in late April 2021, even a 2mg Xanax wouldn't work for me. It just made my heart pound and made me anxious. That's the only reason I am tapering off. Because it quit working miracles for me. You make a good point about never wanting to take it again. I am so anxious in the morning (and through the rest of the day, but not as bad) that I am taking your advice on another thread and slowing down my taper. I also have had a horrifically difficult life so I am anxious regardless.

 

I guess I just need to adjust to life without Benzo's. I'm thinking of asking my Dr. for Vistaril to help with anxiety. It's nowhere near as potent as Benzo's but maybe it will help.

 

Thanks, again for the response,

 

HM

 

Vistaril helped me a tiny bit when I was much worse than now, but when I reached a very bad place, what I needed was a

good long hold. I guess it doesn't work for everyone but that's my experience to remain functional.

 

I hear you. I am disappointed that I have to hold because I want off this crap, but I am going to hold for at least another week, if not 2, and see if my morning anxiety (and anxiety, in general) doesn't ease up some.

 

I guess a few weeks longer isn't a big deal in the long run.

 

HM

VNM,

 

Thank you for the response. Yes, it's true that back in late April 2021, even a 2mg Xanax wouldn't work for me. It just made my heart pound and made me anxious. That's the only reason I am tapering off. Because it quit working miracles for me. You make a good point about never wanting to take it again. I am so anxious in the morning (and through the rest of the day, but not as bad) that I am taking your advice on another thread and slowing down my taper. I also have had a horrifically difficult life so I am anxious regardless.

 

I guess I just need to adjust to life without Benzo's. I'm thinking of asking my Dr. for Vistaril to help with anxiety. It's nowhere near as potent as Benzo's but maybe it will help.

 

Thanks, again for the response,

 

HM

 

Vistaril helped me a tiny bit when I was much worse than now, but when I reached a very bad place, what I needed was a

good long hold. I guess it doesn't work for everyone but that's my experience to remain functional.

 

I hear you. I am disappointed that I have to hold because I want off this crap, but I am going to hold for at least another week, if not 2, and see if my morning anxiety (and anxiety, in general) doesn't ease up some.

 

I guess a few weeks longer isn't a big deal in the long run.

 

HM

 

For me a hold is three months minimum  My state in summer 2019 was so terrifying that my top priority is not going there again. Coming off is secondary. However, I do manage to chip away a bit here and there. I hope I get there eventually.

I feel better this morning than usual for some reason. I am still anxious but not as bad as usual.

 

I'm still holding my Xanax for at least an extra week.

 

HM

I feel better this morning than usual for some reason. I am still anxious but not as bad as usual.

 

I'm still holding my Xanax for at least an extra week.

 

HM

 

I feel better this morning than usual for some reason. I am still anxious but not as bad as usual.

 

I'm still holding my Xanax for at least an extra week.

 

HM

 

you are doing GREAT with your taper . Congrats!!! A high dose too!! I agree dont push it. I wish I did this well. you are the poster child for getting it right the FIRST time.

Hi Keagan,

 

What was your inpatient experience like? to go from 40mgs V to zero that fast is quite an accomplishment. Do you wish you would have slow tapered at home? or are you glad you did it the inpatient way?

 

Thanks, in advance,

 

HM

Hi Keagan,

 

What was your inpatient experience like? to go from 40mgs V to zero that fast is quite an accomplishment. Do you wish you would have slow tapered at home? or are you glad you did it the inpatient way?

 

Thanks, in advance,

 

HM

 

I tried to taper for several years, first off 2mg of K, made some headway but hit a wall. When my tolerance got real bad and depression awful, I did an updose crossover to 40 mgs of valium which was a horrible failure. My depression was so horrible, with depersonalization, TOTAL insomnia and global dysfunction that I had no choice to go inpatient or I would have died. I lost 42 pounds in 3 months. Fortunately I was able to get into Johns Hopkins psych service (my mother had to get this done) and they pumped me full of AD's while tapering me quickly. Surprisingly I was discharged way better than I was on admission, although it took a while to recover.

 

But with your excellent success, keep going the way you are. If your mood gets low, consider some psych med support.

Keagan,

 

I'm glad for your positive inpatient experience. That's always good to hear! I've been holding this week to see if I feel any better. It seems like my morning anxiety is less than it has been.

 

VNM,

I hear you on the benefit of long holds. I'm going to see how I feel Friday and decide whether I'm going to do my cut from .12mg/day to .10mg/day. I'm not sure yet. As I have said; I just want off this crap! but I know I have to be careful too.

How are most of you doing? I reread through the group from post 1, and most of you seemed to have a sense of relief that you were not alone.

 

It was good to have a place to talk about the issues we face with multiple tapers and other issues.

 

I am doing much better, although my dosage has not moved much. If that's how I have to taper at this time to stay sane, then that is good and right. I am giving my brain what it is telling me it needs.

 

Did experience a horrible wave after I had surgery and opiates. Was stunned by the viciousness of it, and scared. It has just now started to ease off, so I am tapering again. (test cutting)

 

What I have learned:

1. Don't bump a dose. Once I stopped doing that, the pardoxing slowed down. (even though I was doing it hoping to stop the paradox)

 

2. Consistency in quantities. I was paradoxing so much, I would try to go up, down , longer or shorter trying to stop it after a few days. I determined to hold my dose, even once the paradox hit, and wait it out. 3 weeks, and I was through the darkness.  I learned from this that I need (generally) to hold 3 weeks. Now I know my time frame.

 

3. Setbacks. Expect the unexpected. Shit will always happen. I had a major surgery and opiates that threw me into hard wd, as bad as it's ever been. I was so scared it would not let up, very bad shape. HELD my dose and waited. and waited. and waited. It's been 7 weeks, and I am coming out of it. But anything can create a setback, you may not even know what it is. I did some reading on the topic, setbacks are very common, even post jump. Expect the unexpected, it will most likely happen. It's not your dose, it's not that you can't heal, it is another manifestation of withdrawal and injury. Hold and hang on, it will resolve. 

 

4. Test cut. When you think your ready, make the cut. If it is bad. Stop, go back, give it some time, and go again. You can always go lower in your percentage.

 

5. Slow slow slow. Find your own unique rhythm. Better to go a bit longer between cuts than you can tolerate than to cut too soon and destabilize yourself. Learning process. Same with percentages.

 

6. Tool box. If you build it, relief will come! Keep adding to it. Doing yoga almost daily while I was in a wave gave me no noticeable relief, but the discipline and practice were calming my nervous system even if I could not feel it. The good things can take time to manifest their benefits, but it will happen.

 

7. Congratulate yourself often. You are doing this. You made it another hour. You made a small cut and held for a while and survived. You folded the laundry. You took a shower. You sat on your porch and listened to the birds and allowed yourself to just be. You dealt with a difficult issue in amped up anxiety and stress. You were kind to a stranger. 

 

Be proud of who you are and what you do.

 

This is the worst experience in the world, and even just to survive an hour is worthy of accolades. Appreciate how strong and amazing you are to get through this. All things are temporary. You may feel stagnate, but you are not stuck. It may feel like that, but we need to change our perception of those spells. The brain is not ready, but it will be in time to make the move you want. Healing is a convoluted non-linear roller coaster, and our body is working so hard to heal. Cut yourself some slack. This process hurts! 

 

Do not let withdrawal define you. It is an injury, an illness, and unbearable, but it is not you. You are a wonder of nature, a spark of divinity, a person of love and peace and giving. You feel the pain, but you are not your pain. You are amazing.

 

Loves to all, far and wide.

 

 

Hi Baddove,

 

That you for the post.  You have such great information that you share!  I so agree with what you wrote. 

 

I am doing ok, have had a few things that have caused me issues but I am holding on.  This is hard to do but we can and we are doing it! 

 

I am so glad that you are doing better after your wave.  I know that all had to be hard to deal with, but you did and you are doing great!  You sound really good and focused and I applaud you for even trying to make cuts.  I totally agree with the testing cuts too, I have done that and it does work.  I have learned that when I make a cut and it hits me really hard really fast, that I am not ready and I go back to the dose before that one.  I keep trying until I am able to make the cut without total suffering.  To me, cutting is not supposed to make me non functional.  I know there is discomfort and WD and I can handle it most times when I cut but there have been times when a cut has knocked me to my knees.  At first I kept at that cut and suffered so much and for months and a couple times, months.  I do not do that to myself anymore.

 

I love how positive you are even though you have been through hell multiple times.  I am proud of how much you have accomplished!!

 

You are an inspiration to me and to others!!

 

Love and hugs,

Julia 

Baddove,

 

So happy to hear that the paradoxing has subsided (no bumping).  This alone might be the step that allows you to resume your taper because it seems that it was one of your most difficult issues to date.  Even better that you figured out your 3 week window ... it will be valuable in the months ahead.  It truly sounds like you have a solid plan now!  Rooting for you big time!!

 

Fondly,

Lori

 

Just wanted to send some love to my fellow Xanax buddies. This is my third taper. I'm right there with you. 26 years on the poison.  Currently shaving off the 2mg tablet using a gram scale by 5% every two weeks, and sometimes that is too much. Unbelievable.  The drug doesn't work anymore, but I'm stuck taking it until this damn taper is over one day.  I need all the support I can get. Wishing us all well!

It does my heart good to see Julia, Lori and now widesky chiming in. Widesky, save your shavings for microdosing which will come down the road in a waterproof container. I have an actual small hard plastic box with a tight rubber cover. I toss my shavings in, as well as pills that crumble. On occasion a pill gets wet. I set it aside to dry. Once it is dry, it will crumble, but those go in my rubber-ware container as well.

 

For many of us, the drug doesn't do much, and it can create a real problem tapering. We have to really pay attention to our bodies, and not get overwhelmed with a cut. Not always workable. Sometimes, we just have to stick it out. I know Julia did that when she accidentally made a double cut.

 

But like Julia said,

I have learned that when I make a cut and it hits me really hard really fast, that I am not ready and I go back to the dose before that one.  I keep trying until I am able to make the cut without total suffering.  To me, cutting is not supposed to make me non functional.

 

It can get very frustrating. I was finally getting stable, and what a relief it was. Then I had oral surgery and opiates, as I have said before, and I was stunned that it threw me into a severe setback. Now coming up on 8 weeks post surgery. I am still not stable, but have made 2 test cuts, my body is not ready. At least I am starting to come out of the wave, I will wait until next week. Having company through this weekend, and another dental appt next week.  I see the dentist every 2 weeks. My last appt, she said I was recovering well, but that my gums were still swollen.

 

At least I know what caused my setback! Often, we have no idea.

 

Here is to everyone finding some inner peace in spite of symptoms and frustrations as we inch our way through at times.

 

We will all get there. Our journey may be bizarre, and it may be painful, but it will happen. My greatest wish is that I could just taper larger doses and get this over with. I can't do that right now.

 

Much respect my beauties, so happy to have some company n here.

 

 

 

it feels good for me to be here, too.  Today was a hard day....I screwed up my dosing ties yesterday and it affected me today.  Lots of intrusive, unkind thoughts and pins/needles in my face. Depression.  I wish it could be over fast and easy...but that isn't the reality.  At least I have my friends here, it means the world. Sleep peacefully if you can. Nite.

Widesky,

 

Those pins and needles were the worst!  I had that for quite a while in the early years of my taper!  I had honestly forgotten about it until I read your post and the memory of it came flooding back of me laying on the sofa in my living room with my legs and face just buzzing, prickly or feeling numb!  It was awful!  Somehow that nasty symptom just sort of vanished somewhere under 2 milligrams (I'd have to look through my journals).

I hope it disappears for you as well! 

 

Lori

Widesky,

 

Those pins and needles were the worst!  I had that for quite a while in the early years of my taper!  I had honestly forgotten about it until I read your post and the memory of it came flooding back of me laying on the sofa in my living room with my legs and face just buzzing, prickly or feeling numb!  It was awful!  Somehow that nasty symptom just sort of vanished somewhere under 2 milligrams (I'd have to look through my journals).

I hope it disappears for you as well! 

 

Lori

 

Is is so frigging uncomfortable!  I'm so glad it is over for you!  I'm a living pin cushion (trying to make light of it!). Oy vey.

The paradoxing came back with a vengeance yesterday. And it's worse today. I dropped my last dose today by 10% hoping less medication would tone it down.(it did tone it down, but not gone)  But I am concerned about further antagonizing this paradox wave. I never know what to do, unless it's too hold, when this happens.

 

I have a very busy week, and am desperate to be functional to get through it. Then I can try a larger taper and see if that helps. But for now, I have out of town company through the weekend, and another dentist apt. Thursday.

 

If dose 1 doses this again tommorrow, I am going to reduce dose 2. If I am stuck in a wave because of reducing, I will have to reschedule, but it's almost impossible as far as the dentist. I have to be seen every 2 weeks so they can measure my progress and prep me for dentures.

 

Several of us are in acute right now, and have been posting on a new thread.

 

This episode seems to have hit many of us.

Widesky - I hope the pins and needles have gotten better or better yet, gone away.  I have read a lot of posts where people have that and it sounds horrible.  I have not had that but have had a lot of other things that are hard to deal with. 

 

I hope that you are better today from the issue with dosing the other day!  I had to take a dose early yesterday and it did throw me off today but I am getting through it! 

 

Know we are here and are glad you found this thread!  We all need support and encouragement!!  Know that things do get better.  We never know what we will face next but there are so many success stories here of people who have done the exact thing we are trying to do today!  When I am having a hard time, I look for those success stories and they help me get through.

 

 

Baddove - Wow - I am so sorry that the paradoxing came back with a vengeance.  That has to be difficult to deal with.  My hope is that it will get better and leave you as it has in the past.  IT is so hard to know what to do to feel better.  Less of a dose sounds logical but with xanax we never know.  Xanax is a evil and hard drug to get off of.  It feels like it just waits for any vulnerable moment we may be having and it hits us harder.  It never likes for us to make progress but we do it anyway! 

 

You have taught me that everything is temporary and that this  too shall pass.  I know that you will get better and be able to get stable and feel better.  I wish I could make this go away for you but know I am thinking about you and praying for you! 

 

You give me the strength I need some days to do the things I have to do.  If you can make it through some of the things you have gone through, then I can do the things I need to as they are not nearly as rough as your situation. 

 

I hope you are able to feel better and enjoy your company this weekend and be able to handle your dentist appointment next week.

 

Praying that you get better and then you can decide what to do next. 

 

Hugs and love to you! 

Julia 

Hi buddies -

The pins and needles are improved but now there's numbness instead without the pins/needles, so instead of having both, I only have the numbness today..I'll take it!  Today was again a torturous day with a myriad of the same Sx I had yesterday.  Like bad dove has expressed before with this damn Xanax...we wish we could just make bigger cuts and get this over with..but that's just wishful thinking. I'm transitioning to 4 .5 tablet coming up with this next prescription, as opposed to just one 2mg bar tablet which I shave off and then measure the pill as it decreases in weight.  The 2mg tablet is getting harder to hold with my fingers as I shave lengthwise across it.  I'm hope to god that four .5 tablets weigh close to the same as the 2mg bar so I can be sure I'm cutting the same amount according to weight of the four pills being equal or very close to what the 2mg pill weighs, I was told by the pharmacy they are going to be from the same manufacturer.  A whole 2mg tablet ideally weighs 265g, and I'm down to 248g (seems so small a cut to be having the Sx that I am!). It's unbelievable that the quality control on a pill weighing the exact same each time is allowed to be so varied and pass quality control tests. God help these bastards who allow this.  I'm so angry at the pharmaceutical companies for what they get away with.  Anyhow, I'm not even sure what I wrote makes sense since I feel such brain fog.  I used to be a professional writer, now I can barely use 1/3 of the adult vocabulary I used to...I hope it is still locked away somewhere in my brain.  Anyhow, I'm rambling.  Catch you later friends. 

Hey Widesky,

 

So glad the pins and needles have improved.  I have the numbness sometimes but not a lot thank goodness. 

 

I just wanted to say that as far as the pills go, I think it will be easier for you with the .5 mg pills.  I have .25 mg pills and my husband shaves my pills for me and he says that it is easier.  We just take the pills and shave them to the dose we need.  We do not weigh them before we cut them, we just weigh them as we are shaving them down to the dose I need.  I understand that you had to weigh each pill when it was a 2 mg bar.  I am sure that was difficult to do but am glad you were able to.  Since you are at .248 grams - and will be using .5 mg pills, you should be able to divide 248 by 4 and use that number to get the accurate dose for each .5 mg pill.  If my calculation is correct - it should be .248 g divided by 4 = .062 g - take 4 pills and shave each one to .062 grams.  Please make sure to calculate this for accuracy.

 

The different milligrams of pills has nothing to do with the weight of the pills - example - .25 mg means the pills has .25 mg of the medication in it, .50 mg means the pill has .50 mg of medication it it.  Also since the .50 mg pills you are getting are from the same manufacturer, you should not feel a difference.  When the pharmacy switches your brands sometimes, it is possible that the new brand  has a  different amount of filler etc in the pills and can cause issues for people.  I have it on file with my pharmacy that I can only use one brand for this reason. 

 

Hope this helped you.  I hope changing from 2 mg pills to .5 mg pills will help you with shaving your pills and making sure your dosage is correct.  Shaving the pills helped me a lot and I am getting accurate dosing.  Also equal dosing with my 4 doses a day!

 

Take care.

You sound good, Widesky, even though I know you are in a horrid wave.  I worked as an art teacher at a community college in my town for a while, but the pay was a joke and it was way to political. Not my scene, I don't do toxic people or environments. I have been a professional writer as well for a very long time. (Even in college I was working as a copy editor for a writer, and a promo and text editor for a publisher.) Moved into SEO writing for an on line company as internet content became the thing, until I got fired a few years ago because... xanax. I still edit books for a few writers .Anyway, I like your plan.

 

Just be VERY sure it is the same brand, because none of them are equal in how much med is in the pill as well as using different fillers.

 

Wanted to add on to what Julia said. If a .5mg pill  weighs 128, that means it has a ratio of 100 of the drug (which isn't 100 mg, but .5) I hope that's not confusing. and 28  of filler. Each pill is about 20% filler. It is not consistent either. I use the top brand, Greenstone, and my 1 mg pills weigh anywhere from 125-132. I average at 128. My .25 pills weigh the same. Essentially, at least Greenstone is about 20% filler, keep that in mind with weight.

 

So, if your pills don't all weigh the same, it should be the inherent discrepancy with production, plus our scale's are not perfect. Don't sweat it.  I am at a point right now where I don't have to shave, I take whole pills to get my weight.

 

Since my tapering attempts the past two weeks left me insane, instead of dropping a whole pill (.25), I am going to go back to shaving it down to half (.12.5) 

 

When I am ready this time, not when I am feeling impatient. Learned that lesson very hard.

 

Julia, can I borrow your husband to shave my pills?

 

But I think splitting in 4 should be easier than shaving one pill.

 

Proud of you.