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Diazepam liquid taper help


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Hi Buddies,

 

I have been reducing Diazepam by 0.5mg per fortnight since December (info in signature) and I'm now at the point where I need to slow down my taper - due to insomnia experienced after my cut from 3mg to 2.5mg. Slownsteady has been really helpful on another thread and has suggested that I either dry cut my pills so that I can taper 0.25mg per fortnight or liquid taper. I have decided along with my psychiatrist that I will switch to liquid Diazepam to continue my taper. I have 1ml syringes and I will also need larger syringes - can you recommend what other type of syringe I should purchase?

 

Thanks so much for all your help

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It's me again.  :P

 

So we established on another thread that you are actually taking ~2.75mg diazepam. Are you still going to get some 2mg and/or 5mg tablets? If you are, I suggest using the 2mg tablets to do a step-wise transition to the liquid. Commercial solutions of diazepam seem to be tolerated well by some and not others. If you have 2mg tablets, you can do a step-wise transition similar to this suggestion:

 

Week 1-2: 0.75mg liquid, 2mg tablets

Week 2-4: 1.75mg liquid, 1mg tablets

Week 5+: 2.75mg liquid

 

If at any point you don't feel well taking the liquid, I suggest going back to tablets. Trialing liquid formulas is risky, at least in my experience and from other buddies around the forum; diazepam seems especially risky to me because the side effects might take a couple weeks to develop, which is why I suggested such a long timeline to transition to liquid.

 

The syringes you need really depends on the dilution you're prescribed. I don't remember what's available, but I think 2mg/ml is common and this would work well with a 1ml syringe. If you can get 1mg/ml I think that's even better. Sometimes the labels are confusing; they'll say 5mg/5ml, which just means 1mg/ml.

 

image.cfm?name=diazepam-oral-solution-diazepam-oral-solution-conc-2.jpg&setid=b8cb8fe7-3744-41fa-8981-05a7fa8a2ec3&type=img

https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=b8cb8fe7-3744-41fa-8981-05a7fa8a2ec3

 

A 1ml syringe should come from the pharmacy with 100 gradations (or if you ask nicely); I think that will let you taper quite accurately, likely all the way to the end even with a 2mg/ml solution. I don't think you'd need larger syringes.

 

I can help you work out the math once you know what solution strength you're dealing with.

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Thanks so much for the helpful information. As mentioned, I am going to stay on ~2.75mg Diazepam for another three - four weeks and then I will have an appointment with my psychiatrist. After the appointment I was planning to drop 0.25mg, so is it possible to start the transition to liquid on the 2.5mg dose? Maybe starting with 0.5mg liquid and 2mg in tablet form? My psychiatrist will still prescribe me 2mg tablets along with the liquid because we had discussed me taking part liquid and part solid pill to start off with. I will be able to get the 1mg/ml liquid.

 

Wonderful! Your psychiatrist sounds very supportive, and I'm really glad to hear this.

 

Yes, dropping to 2.5 first sounds good; if you feel stable enough, you could drop a week or two before the appointment. Either way, it might be less confusing to transition to liquid after this 9% cut from 2.75 - > 2.5mg has settled for a couple weeks; I'm thinking less chance to confuse your WD symptoms with liquid intolerance. I'll rewrite my suggested transition schedule to use your intended 1mg/ml liquid...

 

Week 1-2: 0.5ml liquid, 2mg tablets

Week 2-4: 1.5ml liquid, 1mg tablets

Week 5+: 2.5ml liquid

 

I think this really seems like the perfect time in your taper to trial liquid, both for the increased accuracy of reductions and because it can't hurt to spend a month or two just letting your nerves settle at this new dose range (while still making progress by trialing the liquid). Someone earlier in their taper might be chomping at the bit, but you seem be prioritizing your functionality. I'm impressed.  :thumbsup:

 

Let me know if I can be any more help! I hope the next few weeks are restful.

:smitten:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

You have been such a great help! Your advice is very valuable to me. And I'm thankful for your words of encouragement. I am definitely keen to stay functional because I have a 2 year old to look after.

 

Apologies but I accidentally deleted my last post - I thought you hadn't read it yet so I went to delete it and type something else, but it turns out you had read it and responded. I am quite cloudy headed today! I wanted to let you know that I decided to re-weigh my 5mg tablets on my newer scale and it turns out that they actually weigh 0.17g. I weighed 6 tablets and most landed on 0.17g. So that means I am currently on 2.94mg (bummer right?)

 

It looks like I'll need to step down to 2.5mg over 2 reductions (4 weeks) because a 0.44mg drop would probably be too much in one go. So my thoughts are: in a couple of weeks I will go down to 2.72mg (reduction of 0.22mg) and then a couple of weeks after that I will go down to 2.5mg. I will hold the 2.5mg for two weeks before starting my transition to liquid. What are your thoughts?

 

:) Nic

 

Thanks so much for the helpful information. As mentioned, I am going to stay on ~2.75mg Diazepam for another three - four weeks and then I will have an appointment with my psychiatrist. After the appointment I was planning to drop 0.25mg, so is it possible to start the transition to liquid on the 2.5mg dose? Maybe starting with 0.5mg liquid and 2mg in tablet form? My psychiatrist will still prescribe me 2mg tablets along with the liquid because we had discussed me taking part liquid and part solid pill to start off with. I will be able to get the 1mg/ml liquid.

 

Wonderful! Your psychiatrist sounds very supportive, and I'm really glad to hear this.

 

Yes, dropping to 2.5 first sounds good; if you feel stable enough, you could drop a week or two before the appointment. Either way, it might be less confusing to transition to liquid after this 9% cut from 2.75 - > 2.5mg has settled for a couple weeks; I'm thinking less chance to confuse your WD symptoms with liquid intolerance. I'll rewrite my suggested transition schedule to use your intended 1mg/ml liquid...

 

Week 1-2: 0.5ml liquid, 2mg tablets

Week 2-4: 1.5ml liquid, 1mg tablets

Week 5+: 2.5ml liquid

 

I think this really seems like the perfect time in your taper to trial liquid, both for the increased accuracy of reductions and because it can't hurt to spend a month or two just letting your nerves settle at this new dose range (while still making progress by trialing the liquid). Someone earlier in their taper might be chomping at the bit, but you seem be prioritizing your functionality. I'm impressed.  :thumbsup:

 

Let me know if I can be any more help! I hope the next few weeks are restful.

:smitten:

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Ah, mistakes happen. I have extreme dislike for inexpensive scales; I'm sorry you're having so much trouble. When you get 2mg tablets, 2.5mg will be 1.25 pills and I think this will be quite easy to do with an aluminum pill cutter. Thus, hopefully, no more weighing from that point forward.

 

It looks like I'll need to step down to 2.5mg over 2 reductions (4 weeks) because a 0.44mg drop would probably be too much in one go. So my thoughts are: in a couple of weeks I will go down to 2.72mg (reduction of 0.22mg) and then a couple of weeks after that I will go down to 2.5mg. I will hold the 2.5mg for two weeks before starting my transition to liquid. What are your thoughts?

 

I like your plan; 0.22mg reductions per 2 weeks, until you're down to 2.5mg then stabilize a couple weeks, and trial the liquid after that. Slow and steady!

 

Keep us posted.  :thumbsup:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

I hope you've had a good weekend! I want to run something by you. I've done some maths this morning and worked out that a reduction to 2.72mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.1g to 0.09g. Then a decrease to 2.5mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.09g to 0.085g.

 

My only reliable scale at the moment is a 0.01mg scale so I would need to round down to 0.08g. The issue is that when I switch to liquid the following fortnight I'll be taking a very exact amount of 2.5mg which means I will essentially be updosing (I hope I have explained this well enough). I'm proposing that I stay on 2.72mg until it's time to switch to liquid and then when I switch to liquid I drop to 2.5mg and stick on that dose for a good month. What do you think?

 

Thanks again for all your help,

 

Nic  :)

 

Ah, mistakes happen. I have extreme dislike for inexpensive scales; I'm sorry you're having so much trouble. When you get 2mg tablets, 2.5mg will be 1.25 pills and I think this will be quite easy to do with an aluminum pill cutter. Thus, hopefully, no more weighing from that point forward.

 

It looks like I'll need to step down to 2.5mg over 2 reductions (4 weeks) because a 0.44mg drop would probably be too much in one go. So my thoughts are: in a couple of weeks I will go down to 2.72mg (reduction of 0.22mg) and then a couple of weeks after that I will go down to 2.5mg. I will hold the 2.5mg for two weeks before starting my transition to liquid. What are your thoughts?

 

I like your plan; 0.22mg reductions per 2 weeks, until you're down to 2.5mg then stabilize a couple weeks, and trial the liquid after that. Slow and steady!

 

Keep us posted.  :thumbsup:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

I hope you've had a good weekend! I want to run something by you. I've done some maths this morning and worked out that a reduction to 2.72mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.1g to 0.09g. Then a decrease to 2.5mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.09g to 0.085g.

 

My only reliable scale at the moment is a 0.01mg scale so I would need to round down to 0.08g. The issue is that when I switch to liquid the following fortnight I'll be taking a very exact amount of 2.5mg which means I will essentially be updosing (I hope I have explained this well enough). I'm proposing that I stay on 2.72mg until it's time to switch to liquid and then when I switch to liquid I drop to 2.5mg and stick on that dose for a good month. What do you think?

 

Thanks again for all your help,

 

Nic  :)

 

I suspect you mean your current scale goes to 0.01g. I'd suggest buying a $25 0.001g scale from Amazon if you weren't SO close to being done with weighing things. The good news is that I think you said you'll have 2mg tablets soon! And also, you're on magical diazepam!

 

I also fiddled with math this morning! If your 5mg tablets are 0.17g, that means that there is 29.4mg per gram of pill weight. Since you've been taking 0.1g of these pills, that would put your current dose at 2.94mg, like you said earlier. However I think a 0.01g reduction to 0.09g of pill weight will put you at a 2.64mg dose (not the 2.72mg you mention). Luckily this is still just a 10% reduction.

 

Again I hope that you're getting 2mg tablets (and a decent pill cutter, I suggest the aluminum ones). Once you've stabilized at 2.64mg (0.09g pill weight), to get to 2.5 all you need to do is switch to 1.25 of your 2mg tablets; that's 1 and 1/4 of a 2mg tablet. No need to weigh anything any more at that point.

 

So you might need to go to your psychiatrist appointment on your 2.64mg dose, if you don't have the 2mg tablets by that point. But once you get those 2mg tablets, it'll be only a 5.3% reduction to get to 2.5mg and you'll be done with scales (hopefully forever). I still suggest giving your body a  couple weeks at 2.5mg, if you can be that patient.

 

Only after fully stabilizing at 2.5mg in tablets would I suggest doing the step-wise transition to liquid diazepam that I planned earlier. Stabilizing at 2.5mg is precautionary; there may be a symptomatic adjustment that's taking place when you transition to liquid, and I think it'd be nice to know it's just the liquid and not a previous cut catching up to you and/or the liquid adjustment, which might be confusing.

 

I'm really hopeful that you can tolerate the liquid and make the adjustment, and then have a much easier and more accurate method for reducing going forward; so I'm suggesting whatever I can think of to make that transition successful. You certainly don't have to be as cautious or slow as I'm suggesting; they're just suggestions.  :)

 

Do you still plan to be getting some 2mg tablets?

Do you have a method in mind for cutting them into 1/4s without a scale?

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I'm proposing that I stay on 2.72mg until it's time to switch to liquid and then when I switch to liquid I drop to 2.5mg and stick on that dose for a good month. What do you think?

 

Hello, Nicjk. In case you haven’t already thought of it ... the above approach involves changing two variables at the same time (your dose and your drug formulation). If you do this and experience an issue, you will not know if the issue was caused by the reduction in dose or the switch to liquid.  Also, fyi, some (but not all) members experience the switch to liquid as a reduction in dose.  You might want to ask members in the Valium/Diazepam Support Group about switching from tablets to liquid; several of them have experience with this.

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

Thanks for your doing your own calculations. I don't know how I came up with the wrong calculation! I did say that I'm terrible at maths :)

 

I do have a 0.001g scale but it seems to jump around quite a bit with weight. I have two of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012TDNAM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and every time I put something on the scale it comes up with a different weight. It comes with a 10g calibration weight and every time I place the weight on the scale it comes up with a different weight. My 0.01g scale is much more reliable.

 

The good news is that I already have 46 x 2mg tablets. I have a pill cutter but when I have attempted to use the pill cutter in the past I have never been able to get the pill halves exactly the same size and the brand of pill I have (Valpam) crumbles very easily, so whenever I cut the pill one or both of of the halves crumble. This is similar to the pill cutter I have: https://au.iherb.com/pr/Apex-Ultra-Pill-Splitter/27055?gclid=CjwKCAjw2ZaGBhBoEiwA8pfP_qKHI2o4Ebj2OIuDtFnTXGf4I6xfJ1Ktbjl6fkLuWHq-WSCuhJB8XxoC7ggQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds . Is this the kind you are talking about?

 

It makes sense to not make a dose reduction as well as switching over to liquid but I am probably going to have to rely on my unreliable scale to weigh the pill because I don't know how I'm going to cut a 2mg pill into quarters (and a half) without it crumbling. Is there a better pill cutter that you can recommend? Thanks again

 

 

Hi Slownsteady,

 

I hope you've had a good weekend! I want to run something by you. I've done some maths this morning and worked out that a reduction to 2.72mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.1g to 0.09g. Then a decrease to 2.5mg will mean I drop from a pill weight of 0.09g to 0.085g.

 

My only reliable scale at the moment is a 0.01mg scale so I would need to round down to 0.08g. The issue is that when I switch to liquid the following fortnight I'll be taking a very exact amount of 2.5mg which means I will essentially be updosing (I hope I have explained this well enough). I'm proposing that I stay on 2.72mg until it's time to switch to liquid and then when I switch to liquid I drop to 2.5mg and stick on that dose for a good month. What do you think?

 

Thanks again for all your help,

 

Nic  :)

 

I suspect you mean your current scale goes to 0.01g. I'd suggest buying a $25 0.001g scale from Amazon if you weren't SO close to being done with weighing things. The good news is that I think you said you'll have 2mg tablets soon! And also, you're on magical diazepam!

 

I also fiddled with math this morning! If your 5mg tablets are 0.17g, that means that there is 29.4mg per gram of pill weight. Since you've been taking 0.1g of these pills, that would put your current dose at 2.94mg, like you said earlier. However I think a 0.01g reduction to 0.09g of pill weight will put you at a 2.64mg dose (not the 2.72mg you mention). Luckily this is still just a 10% reduction.

 

Again I hope that you're getting 2mg tablets (and a decent pill cutter, I suggest the aluminum ones). Once you've stabilized at 2.64mg (0.09g pill weight), to get to 2.5 all you need to do is switch to 1.25 of your 2mg tablets; that's 1 and 1/4 of a 2mg tablet. No need to weigh anything any more at that point.

 

So you might need to go to your psychiatrist appointment on your 2.64mg dose, if you don't have the 2mg tablets by that point. But once you get those 2mg tablets, it'll be only a 5.3% reduction to get to 2.5mg and you'll be done with scales (hopefully forever). I still suggest giving your body a  couple weeks at 2.5mg, if you can be that patient.

 

Only after fully stabilizing at 2.5mg in tablets would I suggest doing the step-wise transition to liquid diazepam that I planned earlier. Stabilizing at 2.5mg is precautionary; there may be a symptomatic adjustment that's taking place when you transition to liquid, and I think it'd be nice to know it's just the liquid and not a previous cut catching up to you and/or the liquid adjustment, which might be confusing.

 

I'm really hopeful that you can tolerate the liquid and make the adjustment, and then have a much easier and more accurate method for reducing going forward; so I'm suggesting whatever I can think of to make that transition successful. You certainly don't have to be as cautious or slow as I'm suggesting; they're just suggestions.  :)

 

Do you still plan to be getting some 2mg tablets?

Do you have a method in mind for cutting them into 1/4s without a scale?

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Hi Nic!

I know how frustrating those 0.001mg scales are! I have one and it sits lonely in it's case.

 

It makes sense to not make a dose reduction as well as switching over to liquid but I am probably going to have to rely on my unreliable scale to weigh the pill because I don't know how I'm going to cut a 2mg pill into quarters (and a half) without it crumbling. Is there a better pill cutter that you can recommend?

 

Why yes, there is a better pill cutter!

 

I despise razor-blade pill splitters like the one you linked to. I went through four of them in a matter of weeks before I found the alternative.

 

I suggest any of the aluminum pill splitters on Amazon. This is the exact one I own and I love it...

[nobbc]https://www.amazon.com/EqualSplit-Splitter-Crafted-Medical-Aluminum/dp/B07MH6XTL7[/nobbc]

(just cut and paste the link into the browser web address bar)

Sometimes these go out of stock, so I suggest grabbing one quick. Otherwise I suggest any of the very similar aluminum ones like the EqualDose; they're all around $20-30.

 

And here is a 5-minute instructional video...

 

I love this splitter so much that it's been the cornerstone of my tapering process since I got it.

 

Those 2mg tablets should make hitting 2.5mg easy with a good splitter, and I think you'll also want the splitter to get the 1mg doses on your step-wise transition to liquid, if that's still your plan.

:smitten:

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Thanks Slownsteady, I have ordered the pill splitter you recommended. Fingers crossed that it'll make my life a lot easier! I'm definitely planning to do the step-wise transition to liquid that you recommended. It makes a lot of sense.

 

Have a good week :)

 

Hi Nic!

I know how frustrating those 0.001mg scales are! I have one and it sits lonely in it's case.

 

It makes sense to not make a dose reduction as well as switching over to liquid but I am probably going to have to rely on my unreliable scale to weigh the pill because I don't know how I'm going to cut a 2mg pill into quarters (and a half) without it crumbling. Is there a better pill cutter that you can recommend?

 

Why yes, there is a better pill cutter!

 

I despise razor-blade pill splitters like the one you linked to. I went through four of them in a matter of weeks before I found the alternative.

 

I suggest any of the aluminum pill splitters on Amazon. This is the exact one I own and I love it...

[nobbc]https://www.amazon.com/EqualSplit-Splitter-Crafted-Medical-Aluminum/dp/B07MH6XTL7[/nobbc]

(just cut and paste the link into the browser web address bar)

Sometimes these go out of stock, so I suggest grabbing one quick. Otherwise I suggest any of the very similar aluminum ones like the EqualDose; they're all around $20-30.

 

And here is a 5-minute instructional video...

 

I love this splitter so much that it's been the cornerstone of my tapering process since I got it.

 

Those 2mg tablets should make hitting 2.5mg easy with a good splitter, and I think you'll also want the splitter to get the 1mg doses on your step-wise transition to liquid, if that's still your plan.

:smitten:

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Hi Libertas,

 

I appreciate your advice regarding not changing two variables at once. I'm going to try and stabilise on 2.5mg before switching over to liquid (at the same dosage). I'll check out the Valium/Diazepam Support Group :)

 

Thank you,

 

Nic

 

I'm proposing that I stay on 2.72mg until it's time to switch to liquid and then when I switch to liquid I drop to 2.5mg and stick on that dose for a good month. What do you think?

 

Hello, Nicjk. In case you haven’t already thought of it ... the above approach involves changing two variables at the same time (your dose and your drug formulation). If you do this and experience an issue, you will not know if the issue was caused by the reduction in dose or the switch to liquid.  Also, fyi, some (but not all) members experience the switch to liquid as a reduction in dose.  You might want to ask members in the Valium/Diazepam Support Group about switching from tablets to liquid; several of them have experience with this.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Slownsteady,

 

I hope all is well with you :) .I decreased from 2.94mg to 2.65mg on Monday, which is a 9.86% decrease. Would you recommend that I stay on 2.65mg for more than 2 weeks? My next step is to drop down to 2.5mg as we discussed.

 

Thank you,

 

Nic

 

Hi Nic!

I know how frustrating those 0.001mg scales are! I have one and it sits lonely in it's case.

 

It makes sense to not make a dose reduction as well as switching over to liquid but I am probably going to have to rely on my unreliable scale to weigh the pill because I don't know how I'm going to cut a 2mg pill into quarters (and a half) without it crumbling. Is there a better pill cutter that you can recommend?

 

Why yes, there is a better pill cutter!

 

I despise razor-blade pill splitters like the one you linked to. I went through four of them in a matter of weeks before I found the alternative.

 

I suggest any of the aluminum pill splitters on Amazon. This is the exact one I own and I love it...

[nobbc]https://www.amazon.com/EqualSplit-Splitter-Crafted-Medical-Aluminum/dp/B07MH6XTL7[/nobbc]

(just cut and paste the link into the browser web address bar)

Sometimes these go out of stock, so I suggest grabbing one quick. Otherwise I suggest any of the very similar aluminum ones like the EqualDose; they're all around $20-30.

 

And here is a 5-minute instructional video...

 

I love this splitter so much that it's been the cornerstone of my tapering process since I got it.

 

Those 2mg tablets should make hitting 2.5mg easy with a good splitter, and I think you'll also want the splitter to get the 1mg doses on your step-wise transition to liquid, if that's still your plan.

:smitten:

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I hope all is well with you :) .I decreased from 2.94mg to 2.65mg on Monday, which is a 9.86% decrease. Would you recommend that I stay on 2.65mg for more than 2 weeks? My next step is to drop down to 2.5mg as we discussed.

 

I'm glad to be hearing from you! Congrats on making progress.  :thumbsup:

 

I suggest holding until you feel a return to stability; two weeks seems a sufficient period to be sure you've met the brunt of any symptoms. So one and a half more weeks?

 

Did you get the aluminum pill splitter?

Any success using it to cut 1/4s?

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Oh yes I forgot to mention that the pill splitter arrived. What a game changer! Thanks so much for the recommendation. I played around with it and I was able to prepare a week's worth of 2.5mg pills really quickly. After diazepam I have another horrid medication to taper so the pill splitter will get lots of use.

 

Usually my withdrawals kick in about a week after dropping my dosage, so we'll see what happens. Fingers crossed that I won't experience anything terrible. 

 

Enjoy your weekend :)

 

-Nic

 

I hope all is well with you :) .I decreased from 2.94mg to 2.65mg on Monday, which is a 9.86% decrease. Would you recommend that I stay on 2.65mg for more than 2 weeks? My next step is to drop down to 2.5mg as we discussed.

 

I'm glad to be hearing from you! Congrats on making progress.  :thumbsup:

 

I suggest holding until you feel a return to stability; two weeks seems a sufficient period to be sure you've met the brunt of any symptoms. So one and a half more weeks?

 

Did you get the aluminum pill splitter?

Any success using it to cut 1/4s?

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Oh yes I forgot to mention that the pill splitter arrived. What a game changer! Thanks so much for the recommendation. I played around with it and I was able to prepare a week's worth of 2.5mg pills really quickly. After diazepam I have another horrid medication to taper so the pill splitter will get lots of use.

 

That's great news you got the splitter and it works for you! That tool is the cornerstone of my own taper. You'll be ready for that next horrid medication in more ways than one after this taper I think.

 

Usually my withdrawals kick in about a week after dropping my dosage, so we'll see what happens. Fingers crossed that I won't experience anything terrible. 

 

I'll be praying for you. Your next cut to 2.5mg will hopefully be even easier.

 

Keep us posted! And if you don't mind me asking, how's your little one doing?  I've taught kindergarten and I miss it. My wife does infant and early childcare; she's like a toddler magnet. Two years old can be a bit of a handful with all their hard-won mobility! I suspect you're making the best of it.  :thumbsup:

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Thanks for your prayers Slownsteady - you are so kind :) I'm thankful for your support.

 

My son Angus is doing very well. He is thriving - learning lots of new words every day. And he has a real sense of humour! He teases me by calling out my name (instead of mom) and expects me to chase him around.

 

Teaching kindergarten must have been wonderful! Children are so cute at this age (even though they're a handful!). Lovely that your wife works in infant and early childcare. It's such a high energy job - I look up to those that can handle lots of little ones at once.

 

Oh yes I forgot to mention that the pill splitter arrived. What a game changer! Thanks so much for the recommendation. I played around with it and I was able to prepare a week's worth of 2.5mg pills really quickly. After diazepam I have another horrid medication to taper so the pill splitter will get lots of use.

 

That's great news you got the splitter and it works for you! That tool is the cornerstone of my own taper. You'll be ready for that next horrid medication in more ways than one after this taper I think.

 

Usually my withdrawals kick in about a week after dropping my dosage, so we'll see what happens. Fingers crossed that I won't experience anything terrible. 

 

I'll be praying for you. Your next cut to 2.5mg will hopefully be even easier.

 

Keep us posted! And if you don't mind me asking, how's your little one doing?  I've taught kindergarten and I miss it. My wife does infant and early childcare; she's like a toddler magnet. Two years old can be a bit of a handful with all their hard-won mobility! I suspect you're making the best of it.  :thumbsup:

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Thanks for your prayers Slownsteady - you are so kind :) I'm thankful for your support.

 

My son Angus is doing very well. He is thriving - learning lots of new words every day. And he has a real sense of humour! He teases me by calling out my name (instead of mom) and expects me to chase him around.

 

Teaching kindergarten must have been wonderful! Children are so cute at this age (even though they're a handful!). Lovely that your wife works in infant and early childcare. It's such a high energy job - I look up to those that can handle lots of little ones at once.

 

Teaching kindergarten WAS wonderful; I only ever had trouble with the adults!

 

My wife used to work at a daycare, but now she does freelance nanny work, usually for one or two children, ideally a single infant. The first few years are so important! She likes to take them out in nature, in all weather, and practices a respectful childcare philosophy called RIE.

 

Angus sounds really special, and he must be thrilled to be able to zoom around on his little legs. He's so lucky to have all your care and attention.

I'll be here when you have updates or need more support. :smitten:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

Your wife sounds like an amazing nurturing woman. It is so important to take children out into nature so that they can learn to enjoy the simple things in life. I also take Angus out even when it's raining. I will look into RIE - I like the sound of it.

 

Unfortunately I am experiencing insomnia again. For the last two nights I have had lots of wake ups and lots of tossing and turning. Seeing as it passed last time, I feel less worried. I just hope that it passes more quickly than last time.

 

A friend suggested that instead of dropping say 0.25mg in one go, once I am on liquid Diazepam I could drop 0.02mg per day - which would be reducing by one of the tiny notches on a 1ml syringe per day. He said this might minimise withdrawals. I tested it out with a bit of food dye in water and it would work quite well. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Thanks so much again for all your help. I think I would be stressing if I didn't have your support! 

 

- Nic

 

Thanks for your prayers Slownsteady - you are so kind :) I'm thankful for your support.

 

My son Angus is doing very well. He is thriving - learning lots of new words every day. And he has a real sense of humour! He teases me by calling out my name (instead of mom) and expects me to chase him around.

 

Teaching kindergarten must have been wonderful! Children are so cute at this age (even though they're a handful!). Lovely that your wife works in infant and early childcare. It's such a high energy job - I look up to those that can handle lots of little ones at once.

 

Teaching kindergarten WAS wonderful; I only ever had trouble with the adults!

 

My wife used to work at a daycare, but now she does freelance nanny work, usually for one or two children, ideally a single infant. The first few years are so important! She likes to take them out in nature, in all weather, and practices a respectful childcare philosophy called RIE.

 

Angus sounds really special, and he must be thrilled to be able to zoom around on his little legs. He's so lucky to have all your care and attention.

I'll be here when you have updates or need more support. :smitten:

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Unfortunately I am experiencing insomnia again. For the last two nights I have had lots of wake ups and lots of tossing and turning. Seeing as it passed last time, I feel less worried. I just hope that it passes more quickly than last time.

 

A friend suggested that instead of dropping say 0.25mg in one go, once I am on liquid Diazepam I could drop 0.02mg per day - which would be reducing by one of the tiny notches on a 1ml syringe per day. He said this might minimise withdrawals. I tested it out with a bit of food dye in water and it would work quite well. What are your thoughts on this?

 

I'm really glad I can help. Seems I'm in a mood to type this morning; I hope you will forgive my lengthy reply...

 

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing insomnia, but I think it will pass. One of the challenges I've faced in my taper has been sleeping through the night; specifically returning to sleep after awakening. I use 0.5mg melatonin and my 8pm K dose to nod off rather easily, but during withdrawal I often wake up between 10 and 3am, and some nights it's been impossible to return to sleep. I decided early on in this challenge that the issue could be resolved by somehow learning to put myself to sleep; this is closely linked to infant trauma I experienced, and what I've learned about successful techniques for putting infants to sleep, namely encouraging them to, whenever possible, develop their own self-soothing techniques around sleep-time.

 

Recently I am having more and more success sleeping through the night. But it all started with laying awake and exploring what it takes to fall back asleep; this often took many hours each night, and I had many evenings of dreading the night time. You may find this easier than I did, but I think the same challenge of developing self-soothing methods might be before you. The best suggestion I can offer is to believe that sleep is possible, and to also believe that whatever time it takes you to find your way of "letting go" is just the right amount of time, and completely worth the effort!

 

A last note, for years and years I've chronically woken up to urinate in the night. While tapering, sometimes I'd fall right back to sleep afterwards, but so many other times I couldn't. My doctor said this wasn't normal for someone my age, so I started to think critically about this behavior. Something has shifted recently, after so many months of exploring this nighttime self-soothing, that now when I wake up to urinate, I almost automatically think to myself, "No, this is time for sleep." and I go back to sleep! This nightly interruption has been a problem for so many years before benzos that to see this improvement happening while tapering has me thinking that there are really valuable skills that can be learned during withdrawal. Last night I had the usual urgent wake up to urinate, decided not to, and then woke up around 6am with no need to urinate; so curious! I wonder if someday I'll understand how it all works, but all I know now is that getting used to the dark and the quiet and learning to somehow "let sleep happen" is a skill, and it does work!

 

Regarding daily reductions of diazepam, I do not recommend it. The major caveat to doing a DMT with any of the long half-life benzos is that these regular cuts have a way of generating momentum. Say for example you did a diazepam DMT for a couple weeks, then your cuts start hitting you, and they're tolerable, but maybe after a month you feel like it's too fast and you decide to back off. Holding at your new dose, you still have the previous one or two weeks of unrealized cuts coming for you! The brakes basically don't work. DMT is ideal, in my opinion, for alprazolam and lorazepam because as soon as the taperer is overwhelmed they can hold and improve within the day or two; with clonazepam it's more like three to five days for improvements. With diazepam it could be weeks.

 

Another way to look at this is that a DMT artificially increase the half-life of the medicine. Diazepam's half-life is already crazy long. Clonazepam benefits from the artificial half-life lengthening, but it's still a little tricky to manage; I basically have to aim to go slower than I like but the reward is minimal waves in symptoms. Switching to a DMT did not, like I'd hoped, speed up my clonazepam taper; instead it slowed it down, but my functionality improved.

 

The compromise I'd suggest, if you wanted to try something like your friend is suggesting, is to cut 0.125mg/week instead of 0.25mg/2 weeks. Your first cut will run into the next cut which will run into the following, similar to a DMT, but this probably won't be a problem if you remember it's happening and you'll only need a week or so to hold on the brakes if things get hairy. This weekly cutting could significantly reduce your symptoms, but it may come with a sort of increased regular pressure on your nerves; cut-and-holds ideally have a little rest period that can be useful to gauge functionality and to reset before the next dosage adjustment.

 

I personally wouldn't bother trying to make your taper schedule more complicated than weekly reductions. The body can only heal as fast as it's able, and diazepam is already doing so much magic with it's superb half-life. Someone else may disagree; I know some people DMT their diazepam. I just have my concerns, based on the challenges I've faced doing a clonazepam DMT.

 

I think skill-building is probably a better bet for getting more comfortable in your situation, and beyond that, there's just time and the patience to use it. I generally encourage putting functionality goals ahead of tapering goals, so if you need to go slower in general, I support it.

 

I think you're doing awesome! I hope you find sleep coming to you soon; I know how hard insomnia can be, but I have great confidence in you getting through this. And no doubt you will be much wiser for it!

 

Adversity awards the priceless gift of personal growth. :thumbsup:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

It sounds like you have had quite a journey with learning how to put yourself to sleep (or back to sleep). I like that you have been able to draw on your experience helping infants to self soothe! Also, I find it fascinating that you have managed to trick your brain into going back to sleep after you wake up needing to urinate. The power of the mind :). Insomnia is so uncomfortable and unsettling for most people, so it was brave of you to have lay awake in the dark and explore what it takes to fall back to sleep. I will take your advice and try my best to tell myself that sleep is possible, and to not put pressure on myself to quickly fall back to sleep. I will say that the insomnia this time around hasn't been as bad as the last time. Last night I had an ok night. I am hopeful that it might be a shorter and less harsh round of insomnia this time around.

 

I actually had the same concerns about a daily micro tapering Diazepam - that the withdrawals might build up and hit you all at once when it's too late. You are very knowledgeable and I now completely understand why a daily micro taper wouldn't be a good idea. I think that I might just continue cutting 0.25mg per fortnight once I am ready, and if I keep getting hit with bad insomnia I might consider trying to drop 0.125mg per week instead to see if that helps.

 

I am just going to learn to ride the waves because I know they will pass. Hopefully I won't need to slow down the Diazepam taper even more because the other drug I am on is giving me many negative symptoms (Zyprexa) and I am looking forward to starting my taper off it in the future.

 

Thanks again for your wonderful advice and encouragement. I will be in touch again soon :)

 

 

Unfortunately I am experiencing insomnia again. For the last two nights I have had lots of wake ups and lots of tossing and turning. Seeing as it passed last time, I feel less worried. I just hope that it passes more quickly than last time.

 

A friend suggested that instead of dropping say 0.25mg in one go, once I am on liquid Diazepam I could drop 0.02mg per day - which would be reducing by one of the tiny notches on a 1ml syringe per day. He said this might minimise withdrawals. I tested it out with a bit of food dye in water and it would work quite well. What are your thoughts on this?

 

I'm really glad I can help. Seems I'm in a mood to type this morning; I hope you will forgive my lengthy reply...

 

I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing insomnia, but I think it will pass. One of the challenges I've faced in my taper has been sleeping through the night; specifically returning to sleep after awakening. I use 0.5mg melatonin and my 8pm K dose to nod off rather easily, but during withdrawal I often wake up between 10 and 3am, and some nights it's been impossible to return to sleep. I decided early on in this challenge that the issue could be resolved by somehow learning to put myself to sleep; this is closely linked to infant trauma I experienced, and what I've learned about successful techniques for putting infants to sleep, namely encouraging them to, whenever possible, develop their own self-soothing techniques around sleep-time.

 

Recently I am having more and more success sleeping through the night. But it all started with laying awake and exploring what it takes to fall back asleep; this often took many hours each night, and I had many evenings of dreading the night time. You may find this easier than I did, but I think the same challenge of developing self-soothing methods might be before you. The best suggestion I can offer is to believe that sleep is possible, and to also believe that whatever time it takes you to find your way of "letting go" is just the right amount of time, and completely worth the effort!

 

A last note, for years and years I've chronically woken up to urinate in the night. While tapering, sometimes I'd fall right back to sleep afterwards, but so many other times I couldn't. My doctor said this wasn't normal for someone my age, so I started to think critically about this behavior. Something has shifted recently, after so many months of exploring this nighttime self-soothing, that now when I wake up to urinate, I almost automatically think to myself, "No, this is time for sleep." and I go back to sleep! This nightly interruption has been a problem for so many years before benzos that to see this improvement happening while tapering has me thinking that there are really valuable skills that can be learned during withdrawal. Last night I had the usual urgent wake up to urinate, decided not to, and then woke up around 6am with no need to urinate; so curious! I wonder if someday I'll understand how it all works, but all I know now is that getting used to the dark and the quiet and learning to somehow "let sleep happen" is a skill, and it does work!

 

Regarding daily reductions of diazepam, I do not recommend it. The major caveat to doing a DMT with any of the long half-life benzos is that these regular cuts have a way of generating momentum. Say for example you did a diazepam DMT for a couple weeks, then your cuts start hitting you, and they're tolerable, but maybe after a month you feel like it's too fast and you decide to back off. Holding at your new dose, you still have the previous one or two weeks of unrealized cuts coming for you! The brakes basically don't work. DMT is ideal, in my opinion, for alprazolam and lorazepam because as soon as the taperer is overwhelmed they can hold and improve within the day or two; with clonazepam it's more like three to five days for improvements. With diazepam it could be weeks.

 

Another way to look at this is that a DMT artificially increase the half-life of the medicine. Diazepam's half-life is already crazy long. Clonazepam benefits from the artificial half-life lengthening, but it's still a little tricky to manage; I basically have to aim to go slower than I like but the reward is minimal waves in symptoms. Switching to a DMT did not, like I'd hoped, speed up my clonazepam taper; instead it slowed it down, but my functionality improved.

 

The compromise I'd suggest, if you wanted to try something like your friend is suggesting, is to cut 0.125mg/week instead of 0.25mg/2 weeks. Your first cut will run into the next cut which will run into the following, similar to a DMT, but this probably won't be a problem if you remember it's happening and you'll only need a week or so to hold on the brakes if things get hairy. This weekly cutting could significantly reduce your symptoms, but it may come with a sort of increased regular pressure on your nerves; cut-and-holds ideally have a little rest period that can be useful to gauge functionality and to reset before the next dosage adjustment.

 

I personally wouldn't bother trying to make your taper schedule more complicated than weekly reductions. The body can only heal as fast as it's able, and diazepam is already doing so much magic with it's superb half-life. Someone else may disagree; I know some people DMT their diazepam. I just have my concerns, based on the challenges I've faced doing a clonazepam DMT.

 

I think skill-building is probably a better bet for getting more comfortable in your situation, and beyond that, there's just time and the patience to use it. I generally encourage putting functionality goals ahead of tapering goals, so if you need to go slower in general, I support it.

 

I think you're doing awesome! I hope you find sleep coming to you soon; I know how hard insomnia can be, but I have great confidence in you getting through this. And no doubt you will be much wiser for it!

 

Adversity awards the priceless gift of personal growth. :thumbsup:

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I'm really happy to hear that short novel I wrote was helpful for you. Sleep comes to us all! I'm glad the insomnia is not as bad for you as last time.

 

I agree with the course of 0.25mg/2-week reductions if you can; if you need to go slower, you will still be done soon. Functionality is so important; in my experience, the desire to speed things up is often a withdrawal symptom.

 

I am sorry to hear you're on Zyprexa. I think you're very brave to be tackling these medications, and so patiently and intelligently. It gives me great joy to know that I've been able to help you on this important journey of yours.

 

Please keep us posted Nic! And may you find those sweet dreams again.  :sleepy:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Slownsteady,

 

How have you been?

 

Just a little update and also a question. On Monday I reduced from 2.65mg to 2.47mg (the closest I could get to 2.5mg using my 0.01g scale - I weighed the 1/4 of a tablet). The dreaded insomnia returned last night unfortunately. Forgive me if this is a dumb question but seeing as I am experiencing insomnia no matter how little I drop, why is it better for me to drop 0.25mg per fortnight rather than 0.5mg per fortnight?

 

Many thanks,

 

Nic

 

I'm really happy to hear that short novel I wrote was helpful for you. Sleep comes to us all! I'm glad the insomnia is not as bad for you as last time.

 

I agree with the course of 0.25mg/2-week reductions if you can; if you need to go slower, you will still be done soon. Functionality is so important; in my experience, the desire to speed things up is often a withdrawal symptom.

 

I am sorry to hear you're on Zyprexa. I think you're very brave to be tackling these medications, and so patiently and intelligently. It gives me great joy to know that I've been able to help you on this important journey of yours.

 

Please keep us posted Nic! And may you find those sweet dreams again.  :sleepy:

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Hi Slownsteady,

How have you been?

 

Just a little update and also a question. On Monday I reduced from 2.65mg to 2.47mg (the closest I could get to 2.5mg using my 0.01g scale - I weighed the 1/4 of a tablet). The dreaded insomnia returned last night unfortunately. Forgive me if this is a dumb question but seeing as I am experiencing insomnia no matter how little I drop, why is it better for me to drop 0.25mg per fortnight rather than 0.5mg per fortnight?

 

Hi Nic,

I've been generally good; busy with therapy. Pushing myself a bit to get to 1mg/day when I plan to take a respite. Probably holding today for a social event tomorrow. I struggle to take my own advice sometimes, and slow down!

 

I suggest not bothering with your scale any more. It's up to you, but I think 2.5mg cut from 2mg tablets with that aluminum pill splitter is going to be "close enough", especially if you cut it like demonstrated in the YouTube video. Day-by-day any variance from split to split is going to likely disappear, especially on diazepam.

 

I suspect there would likely be two differences if you doubled your rate of reduction, as considered. The first that the severity of the insomnia and other symptoms would be more significant; I think insomnia indicates your CNS is struggling do to it's own down-regulating at night sufficient to fall or stay asleep. In benzo withdrawal this is exacerbated chemically by a lack of GABA receptors and and an over abundance of glutamate receptors; basically your brain is set up to function on more sedative and not getting it. If you reduce your dosage by twice as much, there will be twice as much of a temporary imbalance.

 

The results of twice this imbalance could cause something like twice the intensity of withdrawal, and a more prolonged period of time during which your body is experiencing dysfunction while trying to make the necessary neuro-regenerative adjustments. So, more withdrawal symptoms, increase severity and/or longer recovery times; that's what I suspect would happen.

 

That you dread the insomnia says a lot about where you are in terms of down-regulating at night time. At some point, I hope, insomnia will become boring and ordinary to you. This is a good sign that you're developing the down-regulating skills necessary to fall asleep with less sedative. For now, I suggest just noticing you're awake and trying see this as less of a problem.

 

Let me know if I can be any more help.  :thumbsup:

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Hi Slownsteady,

 

Much respect to you! I tapered off K in the past (long story as to how I ended up back on Benzos!) and it was much more difficult than tapering off Diaz. It won't be long until you reach your goal. How long do you think you'll take a break for? It is admirable that you are willing to take a break because as you know, most want to just power through their taper and get off the drugs. Sounds like you're really in touch with what your body can handle.

 

Thank you for your explanation in response to my question. Yesterday I just had a bad mental health day and I was fed up with the whole process - leading to me thinking that I just want to hurry up and get off the drugs. But I have noticed that with the smaller cuts the insomnia is much milder, so I am definitely going to continue on the path you and I decided on, with 0.25mg drops every 2 weeks or so. Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I am actually going to have to stay on 2.5mg of diazepam for a while longer because I am switching from solid Zyprexa tablets to a dissolvable wafer. There have been studies showing that the dissolvable version does not cause as much weight gain due to the way it's metabolised, and I have been piling on weight like crazy. I will stay on 2.5mg for at least 2 weeks before making my Zyprexa change and then won't change anything again for at least 2 weeks after the switch.

 

P.S. I read your backstory and it looks like you and I are the same age :). I am turning 35 next month.

 

Enjoy your social event and I'm sure I will chat to you soon

 

Hi Slownsteady,

How have you been?

 

Just a little update and also a question. On Monday I reduced from 2.65mg to 2.47mg (the closest I could get to 2.5mg using my 0.01g scale - I weighed the 1/4 of a tablet). The dreaded insomnia returned last night unfortunately. Forgive me if this is a dumb question but seeing as I am experiencing insomnia no matter how little I drop, why is it better for me to drop 0.25mg per fortnight rather than 0.5mg per fortnight?

 

Hi Nic,

I've been generally good; busy with therapy. Pushing myself a bit to get to 1mg/day when I plan to take a respite. Probably holding today for a social event tomorrow. I struggle to take my own advice sometimes, and slow down!

 

I suggest not bothering with your scale any more. It's up to you, but I think 2.5mg cut from 2mg tablets with that aluminum pill splitter is going to be "close enough", especially if you cut it like demonstrated in the YouTube video. Day-by-day any variance from split to split is going to likely disappear, especially on diazepam.

 

I suspect there would likely be two differences if you doubled your rate of reduction, as considered. The first that the severity of the insomnia and other symptoms would be more significant; I think insomnia indicates your CNS is struggling do to it's own down-regulating at night sufficient to fall or stay asleep. In benzo withdrawal this is exacerbated chemically by a lack of GABA receptors and and an over abundance of glutamate receptors; basically your brain is set up to function on more sedative and not getting it. If you reduce your dosage by twice as much, there will be twice as much of a temporary imbalance.

 

The results of twice this imbalance could cause something like twice the intensity of withdrawal, and a more prolonged period of time during which your body is experiencing dysfunction while trying to make the necessary neuro-regenerative adjustments. So, more withdrawal symptoms, increase severity and/or longer recovery times; that's what I suspect would happen.

 

That you dread the insomnia says a lot about where you are in terms of down-regulating at night time. At some point, I hope, insomnia will become boring and ordinary to you. This is a good sign that you're developing the down-regulating skills necessary to fall asleep with less sedative. For now, I suggest just noticing you're awake and trying see this as less of a problem.

 

Let me know if I can be any more help.  :thumbsup:

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