Who has paradoxical reactions to dosing?

[[Buddie]]

I want to pick your brain.  I'm trying to better understand how this happens.

[[Buddie]]

Haha today my doctor said I am the queen of paradoxical reactions. Jokes aside. Not joking, I am.
I did react paradoxically on meds and while tapering and in withdrawal. Today I know that my strange reactions are made by my genes since I cannot detox fully in the last process of detoxing because of a genetic mutation.. and I assume thats also the reason why my body creates non normal reactions because the stuff just is over-loading in my body and causing more poison than it should. If you want to dig deeper you could read the book "dirty genes". The word dirty was chosen in a stupid way cause the book is not talking about bad genes or something that is wrong, the opposite is explained - it makes sense for nature to produce varieties of humans with different genetic structures for so many reasons. But the key is to know in which group you are, then you know which meds you cannot tolerate, how to live your best life and so on..
And genes are just one factor that can be the cause for paradoxical reactions, you could also read about hormones and their impact, diet, inflammation - biochemistry is the greatest thing I ever discovered. And the more I understand the more I can forgive my body and I am ashamed that I was so angry with myself.. while my system did for what it was build for once..

[[Buddie]]

Marigold - Yeah, I get about the genes.  Not much to do about that (yet).  I'm looking for some tell-tale signs that a person might be prone to paradoxical reactions.  Do you feel that you were experiencing interdose withdrawal before you began your taper?  Were your first few cuts easy or difficult (and how big were they)?  How quickly do you feel you became tolerant to the benzo?  How quickly do you feel you became dependent on it?  When the paradoxical response began, was it a sudden flip or slow to occur?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Dosing/tapering history and related symptoms.  If you prefer, you can send it to me via PM.  Obviously, no action is required.

[[Buddie]]

Marigold - Yeah, I get about the genes.  Not much to do about that (yet).  I'm looking for some tell-tale signs that a person might be prone to paradoxical reactions.  Do you feel that you were experiencing interdose withdrawal before you began your taper?  Were your first few cuts easy or difficult (and how big were they)?  How quickly do you feel you became tolerant to the benzo?  How quickly do you feel you became dependent on it?  When the paradoxical response began, was it a sudden flip or slow to occur?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Dosing/tapering history and related symptoms.  If you prefer, you can send it to me via PM.  Obviously, no action is required.

You can for sure find out if a person is a slow or a fast "detox-er". This can be permanent (genetic) or temporary (not mutations, depletions but inactive genes which could be activated by adjusting lifestyle and diet). You can also measure the activity of thyroid and adrenal glands and then quickly know if someone is made to react what we call paradoxical or not. My doctor can tell exactly how I reacted on each med, even the symptoms I had while being on the particular med. It is just biochemistry, no mystery at all.
You could read the book "dirty genes" and get a short insight. Slow GST and COMT genes for example are often found in people who get into tolerance quickly, react paradoxically and over-react on chemicals..
For example with my nearly non active GST system I can barely tolerate any chemicals and meds but I would react wonderful on a chemo for cancer treatment, because my body is not able to get rid of these meds at all. that's one point I would actually profit.

So it makes no sense to look on taper history and related symptoms, you need to dig deeper. No way to explain to people "okey, because you reacted with this or that - you are prone for paradoxical effects.." It is not so easy

And then, you still don't know about the numerous system in the body of a certain person. A lack of magnesium can cause symptoms which may look like paradoxical reactions, but in fact are made by other reactions.

The only statement I could make is that I think (personally!) that if you have been on 20 meds, and all did only harm to you, the chances that you are just not made to take these meds are high. No matter for what reason. The body is wise!

[[Buddie]]

https://www.acep.org/how-we-serve/sections/toxicology/news/july-2017/paradoxical-reactions-to-benzodiazepines-who-gets-them-and-why/    some info here bads however we are all different.

re genetics ....  many people have flawed genes without
it ever affecting them health wise.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/12/06/166648187/perfection-is-skin-deep-everyone-has-flawed-genes 

[[Buddie]]

Marigold - Yeah, I get about the genes.  Not much to do about that (yet).  I'm looking for some tell-tale signs that a person might be prone to paradoxical reactions.  Do you feel that you were experiencing interdose withdrawal before you began your taper?  Were your first few cuts easy or difficult (and how big were they)?  How quickly do you feel you became tolerant to the benzo?  How quickly do you feel you became dependent on it?  When the paradoxical response began, was it a sudden flip or slow to occur?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Dosing/tapering history and related symptoms.  If you prefer, you can send it to me via PM.  Obviously, no action is required.

You can for sure find out if a person is a slow or a fast "detox-er". This can be permanent (genetic) or temporary (not mutations, depletions but inactive genes which could be activated by adjusting lifestyle and diet). You can also measure the activity of thyroid and adrenal glands and then quickly know if someone is made to react what we call paradoxical or not. My doctor can tell exactly how I reacted on each med, even the symptoms I had while being on the particular med. It is just biochemistry, no mystery at all.
You could read the book "dirty genes" and get a short insight. Slow GST and COMT genes for example are often found in people who get into tolerance quickly, react paradoxically and over-react on chemicals..
For example with my nearly non active GST system I can barely tolerate any chemicals and meds but I would react wonderful on a chemo for cancer treatment, because my body is not able to get rid of these meds at all. that's one point I would actually profit.

So it makes no sense to look on taper history and related symptoms, you need to dig deeper. No way to explain to people "okey, because you reacted with this or that - you are prone for paradoxical effects.." It is not so easy

And then, you still don't know about the numerous system in the body of a certain person. A lack of magnesium can cause symptoms which may look like paradoxical reactions, but in fact are made by other reactions.

The only statement I could make is that I think (personally!) that if you have been on 20 meds, and all did only harm to you, the chances that you are just not made to take these meds are high. No matter for what reason. The body is wise!

Marigold, does this then explain why healing times can be so drawn out for some people, that they fall into the permanent category?  I'm assuming you mean here not that the damage is permanent but that the gene is already predisposed as "damaged" therefore healing is going to take much longer?   For those who have a "temporary" depletion then, it's just a case of trying to jump start possible inactive genes through lifestyle, diet, etc.. in order to facilitate a faster heal time?   I'm trying to understand the mechanisms at work here, so apologies for jumping in and not focusing on the paradoxical reaction portion of the discussion, but it is a curious line of reasoning here that I'm wanting to make sure I understand.  I will most definitely look into this text Dirty Genes.  Thank you. 

As for me, I think my reaction happened very, very quickly.  I felt the benzo wasn't working within a few days of use, in fact I felt worse that 2nd day but in a different way, not what I went to my Dr for in first place, hence I stopped after 3 days.  Then I felt WAY worse.  Started again per Dr, only felt slightly better (not baseline before benzo better), then stopped again.  That's when things went way south.  It was a cat and mouse game for me the entire time then as Dr felt it couldn't be the benzo that was making me feel that way, yet every time I tried to either stop or extend the dose longer and longer, the sicker I got (this was only 9 days in).  It wasn't until I had a consistent dose that was much higher than my initial starting point that I felt okay.  Had a few days of "okay, I think I got this now" but then the taper he had me on was way too fast and I crashed again.  I have always wondered if it was my past history (which really was unremarkable in that it was PRN and very sporadic use over a long period of time but I never really had any luck with it even back then--never felt "ahh, I'm relaxed now") or if it was more of a this drug is just bad for my genetic make-up period, hence why it never really worked in a way that relaxed me or did what it was supposed to do in the first place.   

I have no evidence other than my own experience, so this idea of paradoxical is very interesting to me. 

[[Buddie]]

Marigold - Yeah, I get about the genes.  Not much to do about that (yet).  I'm looking for some tell-tale signs that a person might be prone to paradoxical reactions.  Do you feel that you were experiencing interdose withdrawal before you began your taper?  Were your first few cuts easy or difficult (and how big were they)?  How quickly do you feel you became tolerant to the benzo?  How quickly do you feel you became dependent on it?  When the paradoxical response began, was it a sudden flip or slow to occur?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Dosing/tapering history and related symptoms.  If you prefer, you can send it to me via PM.  Obviously, no action is required.

You can for sure find out if a person is a slow or a fast "detox-er". This can be permanent (genetic) or temporary (not mutations, depletions but inactive genes which could be activated by adjusting lifestyle and diet). You can also measure the activity of thyroid and adrenal glands and then quickly know if someone is made to react what we call paradoxical or not. My doctor can tell exactly how I reacted on each med, even the symptoms I had while being on the particular med. It is just biochemistry, no mystery at all.
You could read the book "dirty genes" and get a short insight. Slow GST and COMT genes for example are often found in people who get into tolerance quickly, react paradoxically and over-react on chemicals..
For example with my nearly non active GST system I can barely tolerate any chemicals and meds but I would react wonderful on a chemo for cancer treatment, because my body is not able to get rid of these meds at all. that's one point I would actually profit.

So it makes no sense to look on taper history and related symptoms, you need to dig deeper. No way to explain to people "okey, because you reacted with this or that - you are prone for paradoxical effects.." It is not so easy

And then, you still don't know about the numerous system in the body of a certain person. A lack of magnesium can cause symptoms which may look like paradoxical reactions, but in fact are made by other reactions.

The only statement I could make is that I think (personally!) that if you have been on 20 meds, and all did only harm to you, the chances that you are just not made to take these meds are high. No matter for what reason. The body is wise!

Marigold, does this then explain why healing times can be so drawn out for some people, that they fall into the permanent category?  I'm assuming you mean here not that the damage is permanent but that the gene is already predisposed as "damaged" therefore healing is going to take much longer?   For those who have a "temporary" depletion then, it's just a case of trying to jump start possible inactive genes through lifestyle, diet, etc.. in order to facilitate a faster heal time?   I'm trying to understand the mechanisms at work here, so apologies for jumping in and not focusing on the paradoxical reaction portion of the discussion, but it is a curious line of reasoning here that I'm wanting to make sure I understand.  I will most definitely look into this text Dirty Genes.  Thank you. 

As for me, I think my reaction happened very, very quickly.  I felt the benzo wasn't working within a few days of use, in fact I felt worse that 2nd day but in a different way, not what I went to my Dr for in first place, hence I stopped after 3 days.  Then I felt WAY worse.  Started again per Dr, only felt slightly better (not baseline before benzo better), then stopped again.  That's when things went way south.  It was a cat and mouse game for me the entire time then as Dr felt it couldn't be the benzo that was making me feel that way, yet every time I tried to either stop or extend the dose longer and longer, the sicker I got (this was only 9 days in).  It wasn't until I had a consistent dose that was much higher than my initial starting point that I felt okay.  Had a few days of "okay, I think I got this now" but then the taper he had me on was way too fast and I crashed again.  I have always wondered if it was my past history (which really was unremarkable in that it was PRN and very sporadic use over a long period of time but I never really had any luck with it even back then--never felt "ahh, I'm relaxed now") or if it was more of a this drug is just bad for my genetic make-up period, hence why it never really worked in a way that relaxed me or did what it was supposed to do in the first place.   

I have no evidence other than my own experience, so this idea of paradoxical is very interesting to me.

I do not think it is as easy as this. And having a genetic mutation is nothing bad! In fact, in my case I would be the one in a pack or group of humans who would tell them which water is good to drink, which place to rest is safe (earth quakes, smoke, fire...) and so on. It seems to be a fact that people with this genetic mutation are also very empathic and creative. And being a so called fast detoxer can be very difficult as well. Medication has to be given in much higher dosages and the immune system can overreact and kill its human faster. on the other hand you would have slow detoxer developing more auto immune disorders, but seeing that on a life time you would still live longer out in nature.
Our body is a wonderful complex system made to survive. And since we are born to live in tribes nature was wise to create different types. The fact some have problems with medication is not something bad. In my experience my other genetic equipment has always brought the solutions for the genes I thought were not working well.
The problem is not the genetic aspect - the problem in my eyes is the environment we have to live in today, which is far away from what nature wants us to do and be.
But yes, there is the knowledge out there that some people do not respond to caffeine, to certain meds and substances like others, and the Cytochrome , COMT genes and glutathione s transferase are just examples for this. But, as I said before, people with slow genes or inactive genes still have other advantages and lifestyle plays a huge role in it. However it is a lot about knowledge and money. I know I would be the happiest person on this planet with a much better health could I afford living in a different area.

[[Buddie]]

Marigold - Yeah, I get about the genes.  Not much to do about that (yet).  I'm looking for some tell-tale signs that a person might be prone to paradoxical reactions.  Do you feel that you were experiencing interdose withdrawal before you began your taper?  Were your first few cuts easy or difficult (and how big were they)?  How quickly do you feel you became tolerant to the benzo?  How quickly do you feel you became dependent on it?  When the paradoxical response began, was it a sudden flip or slow to occur?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.  Dosing/tapering history and related symptoms.  If you prefer, you can send it to me via PM.  Obviously, no action is required.

Hi [...]!

I happened to stumble across this post. I have recently started having what seems to be paradoxical reactions at .18mg/day Ativan.

I started at .375mg and my first several big cuts were easy. I tried to go from .201 to .16 and had wd symptoms within hours. Freaked - updosed. Tried to crossover to liquid 3 times, including updose to .225mg. Back to pills and dry cut and hold down to .18mg.

I then developed an eye tic randomly that scared me - a week later got pink eye and slowly poisoned myself with eye drops for 2 weeks without knowing (it all came to a head and I had a serious reaction). Then after that, tried to switch to another liquid (5th time trying thinking it would help withdrawal) - after 9 days, severe “poisoned” feeling so I couldn’t handle it. Went back to pills. First couple of days was relief from the reaction to liquid.

Now I seem to react to every dose I take. Heart pounding, short of breath, can’t really talk. In between each dose is up and down. Not sure why, but definitely reacting paradoxically.

I am going to try compound capsules this week after my menstrual cycle starts and pray I handle better so that I can taper.

If not, what is the consensus for what to do when you’re having these reactions to the actual doses? I can tell mostly my afternoon and evening doses.

You hear 2 sides - rapid taper and get off so your body can heal. And then stop, stabilize, go slow like a turtle.

I’m so conflicted.