Slow is Smooth and Smooth is Fast?

I'll try to keep this brief... 

 

I've read about so many buddies REALLY suffering from a rapid taper, and tapering faster or the same until they're bedridden. I've also read about buddies who taper slowly, especially long term users, put up with some pretty awful WD symptoms and long holds, but keep pushing their limits. And I've read about at least one or two buddies who purport to be tapering with the goal of little to no WD symptoms, namely by having a very modest taper rate and holding or reducing their rate in response to their symptoms; these are not reactions to a terrible rushed taper or bad kindling, but instead these are deliberately slow, minimal WD taperers. I know it sounds like a myth, but I swear I've read about them on here.

 

I've cut 25% in 2 weeks; that was hell and a reinstatement. I've cut 9% in 2 weeks DMT, and things got a little screwy and I'm now spending a week just stabilizing. I'm tempted to adopt a ~5%/2 weeks DMT, after KlonopinQuitterinCO shared that this was the taper range suggested by Gail Dawson, Psych NP during her recent consult. I know there's no one-size-fit's all, but I feel like from experience, that range would be very low symptoms for me.

 

The issue I'm having is that I took this medicine for two weeks for headaches before trying to quit. It's never really helped with the headaches since then and while I am often an anxious and depressed monkey, I didn't use psyche meds or even Tylenol in the past decade and a half. To taper at 5%/ 2 weeks from 1.375mg/day, I'm looking at three more years of tapering... Is it worth it? Have the die been cast, and I just need to ride out what my nervous system can handle?

 

I've already answered these questions with "yes" in my head, but I'm just hoping someone else here is also seeing the long view, and could encourage me to just let it ride and keep things functional and even maybe fun! Maybe those "no WD symptoms" taperers could show up here?

 

I'm planning to start a 6%/2 weeks DMT tomorrow or the next day. I was going to start at 7% after 9% being so rough; now I'm getting a little more cautious. Or is it wise?

 

Thank you so much! 

If I were you I would take as long as you’re comfortable and highly functional. Many people that are suffering on this site is a result of a truncated time schedule.  Most doctors will not prescribe a narcotic “indefinitely.”  Consider yourself fortunate to have a sympathetic and understanding doctor. I have tried contacting many doctors for help with this situation and could only find one to help, and she is an hour away from my house (that take my insurance).  If they had any clue how terrifying and difficult getting of these pills are then they would prescribe the medication indefinitely as well. They want to cover their own butts and don’t want to be liable for prescribing the medication.  It’s hard to find a doctor that will prescribe these pills for 3 or mores years to taper when a person only took them for a couple of weeks like yourself.  If I were in your position I would take it slow and try to be one of the people who suffers the minimum even though it takes a very long time. That’s just my thoughts on the subject.

 

p.s.  I think you are doing an awesome job tapering and more importantly you are very integral to this support site. Your compassion, open mindedness, and knowledge are very much appreciated by me and I’m sure others that are on here. When someone posts I always look to see if you respond because it’s always a helpful and thoughtful response.

Thank you TouchdownIrish, for your encouragement of my goals of comfort and functionality, and for your feedback on my ramblings around the forum.

 

I do consider my doctor situation to be very fortunate; he still hopes it'll be less than a year to finish my taper, but I don't think he'd consider rushing me. I'm sorry to hear your doctor is so far away; I hope telehealth is an option for you to get refills and give updates.

 

I really appreciate the feedback about my taper and forum presence. You almost made me cry with that post script. It can feel like an endless and ineffective job trying to support buddies who are overwhelmed with the results of their WD (usually to the point of erratic or catatonic behavior), or so new they don't yet grasp the details and dangers of reductions. Your comments reminded me that so many other members read what I write and get their own benefits. I hope I can keep providing valuable thoughts and connections!

 

I'm going to start at 6%/14 days today. I've always intended to taper so that the clonazepam reductions are on the "backburner"; I have other general health issues and psychotherapy goals that also require risks and create instability. I'm guilty of going too fast with all of these goals at different times, but I'm learning!

 

You seem to be making really great progress on your taper since February; I'm curious what your hold times are like and how you're feeling, if you're open to share.

 

Again, thanks so much for your encouragement! 

I have been doing ok. Just the standard Anxiety, depression, fatigue, some tinnitus, ect. I am functional so far. I drive to my therapy appointments, have a decent appetite, get mild exercise. I was able to go to a restaurant last night.  I was able to pressure wash a friends deck on Tuesday for 3 hours. I have a lot of depression because my hair is thinning/shedding since this ordeal began. I wish it  would only get this bad the whole entire taper.  I’m scared of the acute stuff.

 

I’m using the cut and hold method for the taper. I hold between 14-17 days because the first cuts were over 10%.  I’m down to .68mg that I started on Monday. I use the cheap Gemini 20 scale, and weigh a week out at a time. I was worried that I was going to fast and too much but my body and mind were able to stay functional.  I’m also worried that my cuts will catch up to me because I’ve heard stories like mine where it’s starts out good then a person gets slammed with the severe panic attacks, psychosis, and feeling of going crazy. I experienced all of that when I tried to quit c/t in late January.

I want to avoid that acute stuff by any means possible. That is what worries me the most. Especially since I used benzos previously for about a decade. I quit cold turkey without consequences or repercussions. That’s why I reinstated the leftover pills from then in November. I figured I would use them to get my panic attacks and anxiety under control and then stop. Had no idea of kindling or how devastating this can be.  I didn’t know withdrawal can last for years or how terrifying it can be.  I’m still upset at myself for taking the pills again. I figured it would only be two or three months and would be no problem since i did it before after years of use with no problems. I was wrong. Lol

 

I’m thinking of converting to a dmt after I finish this cut or slowing down my taper. I don’t want to rush anything and get stuck or have to updose because of severe symptoms. I know it only gets harder the lower I get, so I’m preparing myself for that now.

 

I continue to seek other doctors to help as I go along. I have an appointment on may 27 to see a new pcp. I want a physical and blood work done to see if anything else is contributing to how I’m feeling. I’ve never had a blood panel done and I’m 39. I am also going to ask him if he can help or take over my taper since his office is on 3 minutes from my house instead of at least an hour away (depending on traffic).

 

Thanks for all you do on the forum slownsteady.  Your input can be really helpful to newbies that don’t realize what they are in for.

Thank you for sharing more about your situation TouchdownIrish. I saw your new thread on the WD board, and I understand your tapering experience has been difficult. I am celebrating that you've started a thread to share what you're going through! What should we call the experience of hearing someone else is recovering more quickly than we are, especially after larger or more abrupt dosage patterning? Maybe "taper envy"? I get that OFTEN.

 

When I saw that you went from my original dose, 2mg, down to less than 0.75 in the exact same time it took me to get just below 1.5mg, I definitely felt some taper envy.

 

I've heard that some people on the forum connect hair thinning/loss to benzo use or withdrawal; I wonder if this has been proven to be correlated. Paranoia has often driven me to make some pretty wild accusations. There's an inside joke between my wife and I about "the pickle", because I thought some mental health symptoms during my CBD overdose were caused by eating a small pickle, and now it's a good metaphor for similar thoughts. Maybe excessive hair loss is common amongst taperers; I seem to be shedding normally. Paranoia, at least, I'm certain is common amongst taperers.

 

I hope you don't think I'm dismissing your feelings of depression; that I believe is very real and may be rooted much deeper than your changing appearance, or your taper.

 

It does sound like you've been rushing, and I hope you'll be lucky for it. As you know, I'm on a DMT, and it's been interesting. I sometimes miss the drama of the cut-and-hold (the days of peak discomfort made the following period of recovery sort of a special victory), and unlike my earlier assumptions, the DMT doesn't allow me to cut any faster. I charted out my progress history from the beginning; when I was doing a cut-and-hold at 7.7% and even on the 9%/14 days, because I'd need to hold or wait extra days to stabilize, my biweekly average has almost always been 6%!

 

What a DMT does do well for me is it keeps the day-to-day symptoms very similar, and for the long-haul and addressing my other medical issues this is probably going to be very valuable for me. I'm going to stick with it at 6%, and hopefully get my excitement from something else for a while. 

 

Blood work sounds like a good idea; I wouldn't expect much though; conventional blood panels seem to only show really significant deficiencies. I hope you don't have any! The kinds of tests that I've found to reveal underlying issues at my age are usually expensive and out of insurance; things like an organic acid urine test or a methylation profile have been useful for me, but hundreds of dollars out of pocket.

 

I think it's great that you're exploring your doctor options; I hope you can get the same or better support from someone more local.

 

Let me know if you start a Titration Board thread and want help converting to a DMT. I try not to push my approach; I'm happy to discuss whatever way would work best for you.

 

I really hope you'll continue to post more on the forum; your experience is really valuable and I've appreciated all that you've shared. 

Thanks slownsteady. My depression is rooted more deeply than the hair loss and taper. Those things just exacerbate the depression. I’m working on it, but it is hard to deal with. I also feel that I’m going too fast, but after I cut each time and 14 days or so go past and I feel ok and functional, so I cut again.  I don’t know if I should hold for longer or not. I feel ok so I continue with my taper. I’m not sure if I should wait it out longer or not. I ok don’t want to add more unnecessary time to the taper.  I feel as if the cuts are adding up until my body can’t take anymore and I’ll get hit with acute symptoms because each time I cut the symptoms are minimal.  Is there a threshold or level where the body can no longer take it and the flood gates open up. I guess that’s what makes this whole process so hard, and why doctors do not want to get involved in helping get off the drug.... nobody knows what the hell is going to happen. One day you could be fine and living a normal life with no symptoms. The next day you could be psychotic mess feeling like your going crazy and possibly hurt yourself or others because you don’t know any better.  This whole thing is such a mystery.

I'm grateful to hear that you're aware of your depression roots; these things can go very deep, and most of us are living with developmental trauma, of one kind or the other. Trauma-informed psychotherapy can help.

 

You are describing yourself as doing a symptom based taper, and I don't recommend that approach for long-term users (maybe 2+ years of daily use as a threshold for long-term?). I feel a little arrogant "recommending" anything, but the forum is full of evidence against symptom-based tapering for long-term users.

 

The best explanation I can give you is that there seems to be layers to our neurology, and it's almost like some parts don't get activated very often. During long-term use these parts adapt to the drug at some point, but during early tapering the same parts don't seem to get repaired, maybe because they're not in use. So when these parts DO get activated, say, six months into a symptom based taper, they're WAY behind the program and a lot of repairs get started at once, and people "hit a wall", have to slow way down or end up bedridden. It can be very frightening, especially when the medical community thinks it isn't withdrawal, and people who trust their doctor to fix all their symptoms can end up poly-drugged and misdiagnosed.

 

Please regard the above "neurological parts" idea as pure speculation; I feel like an early astronomer guessing that the stars revolve around the Earth, but there is a clear pattern of delayed withdrawal in long-term users. From my observations, long-term users who do symptom-based tapers, almost as a rule, get new and sometimes quite severe WD symptoms that show up later in their taper, and which can change their whole symptom profile and taper rate. The only way I can think of how to avoid this is to taper slowly from the start. My idea of slowly is somewhere in the low end of 5-10%; maybe 7% maximum.

 

I'm sorry if I'm just repeating your concerns; I think they're valid. I think as a long-term user, it's a big gamble to taper as quickly as you can tolerate, and one I've seen so many people lose. I know you'll weigh your options and make the best decision for you, and I support whatever you choose!

 

Why does this stuff always remind me of stock investing? Oh yeah; risks, rewards, and impatience... I'm now a very cautious long-term stock investor, and a very happy one too.

 

Also I'm going to post this on my buddy blog this afternoon; I learned that I've actually been tapering at 6% this whole time, once I factored in all the days spent holding to recover my stability. Even when I was cutting 7.7%/2 weeks, or my 9%/2 week DMT... all averaged out biweekly to 6%, because I needed so many hold days. So I'm not really slowing down at all. 

 

I'm thinking of starting a support group called the 6% club....

Am I a long term user because I kindled. Because I was only using the benzos for several months this time around before tying to withdrawal, and when I tried to stop it hit me with rebound anxiety the first  2 -3 days and then the 5th or 6 th day is when the severe panic set in. That’s when I had to reinstate.

Slownsteady, I really meant to say... Do you consider me as a long-term user because I was several years ago, or because I kindled myself? 

Slownsteady, I really meant to say... Do you consider me as a long-term user because I was several years ago, or because I kindled myself? 

 

That's a really good question; thanks for clarifying. My memory can be a bit fuzzy; I don't remember what I was thinking but you're right, you haven't been using steadily for a long period, just since November last year it looks like from your signature. I can't explain the mix up, except that I'm a recovering benzo patient...

 

Since you spent two years roughly between your 10 year Ativan script and your reinstating in Nov, I guess your issue is not long-term use, but as you say, kindling. So hopefully there won't be any delayed WD symptoms as you taper, and you can do a symptom based taper and get good results. I really don't know what will happen, and I'm sorry for causing unnecessary concern!