V back to K

Has anyone gone from V back to K?  After3.5 weeks, V is becoming intolerable.  I am constantly nauseous, forcing myself to eat little bites, losing weight like crazy (about to fall below 100#), and, in the mornings I'm having what I believe is a histamine reactions- intense shaking, red, itchy spots all over. 

I was told by another buddy that V. blocks the DAO enzyme which is the enzyme your body needs to break down histamine. It's the only benzo that does that.

SO, as much as I don't want to mess my brain up more, I'm wondering if K would be a better option for ME as a taper drug instead of V.  Has anyone else done this? 

Maybe its not the V causing this, but its withdrawals from K not covered by V?

I've considered that too. I just don't know what to do. My Dr. Said after  a month of valium I needed to taper 1 mg, and I'm doing worse. This is all like walking through hell.

Will your doctor prescribe K again so you can cross back over? V does NOT seem to be doing you any good, and I'd advise against cutting at all if you're in rough shape; the problems just tend to compound. WD symptoms indicate a nervous system under repair; if that repair doesn't complete, adding more damage by cutting does what you'd expect more damage to do.

 

I recommend reinstating on K as you were previously, and waiting until you stabilize. Then tapering K alone. It's just what I'd recommend. It may be that the sooner you reinstate the sooner you'll recover. K can be safely and easily tapered, but your doctor may not know how to do it. That's the biggest problem I see around the forum. People who rely on doctors to taper their dosage often get rushed and slammed with WD symptoms, meanwhile many of the same doctors claim it's not withdrawal related and poly-drug them or stop listening; people who get a steady dose from their doctor, and taper on their own at home, seem to do infinitely better. Even addition or detox experts seem to really abuse their patients. Self-advocacy and maybe a little medical non-compliance might be necessary for your safety.

 

Personally, my doctor is in the loop, but I only accepted him as my doctor on the condition he'd prescribe indefinitely, and I'd taper at my own pace, and my own methods. He was uncommonly accommodating. Many other members keep their doctors in the dark about the taper, and just collect their script every month. Sadly, this is really the best thing I've seen most people do.

 

Once you're stable on K, if you decide to go that way, I'll be around and happy to help you navigate the taper options. 

Has anyone gone from V back to K?  After3.5 weeks, V is becoming intolerable.  I am constantly nauseous, forcing myself to eat little bites, losing weight like crazy (about to fall below 100#), and, in the mornings I'm having what I believe is a histamine reactions- intense shaking, red, itchy spots all over. 

I was told by another buddy that V. blocks the DAO enzyme which is the enzyme your body needs to break down histamine. It's the only benzo that does that.

SO, as much as I don't want to mess my brain up more, I'm wondering if K would be a better option for ME as a taper drug instead of V.  Has anyone else done this?

 

I’m in the same boat but have crossed only one of 4 doses from 1.0 K to 5 mg V. But I’m not wanting to keep going with the V crossover for same reasons of depression and itchy, etc.  Do you think I can now just switch back to K for that dose or do I have to taper off V now possibly adding back in the half dose of K for and half dose of V for a few days? I’ve taken 40 mg. Of V in place of 2 mg. Of K.

 

My doctor knows this was a trial. And she will support going back to K. The other issue I have is that I’m on Mirtazapine which is a string antihistamine and I feel that works badly with Valium also mucking with histamine receptors.

 

Thanks for all support and advice.  This forum is invaluable!

 

Storm

 

 

Storm survivor, some of your statements don't make sense; you're taking 5mg of V in place of 1mg of K? That's an odd crossover equation; Ashton recommends 20mg of V for 1mg of K. Also you say that you've taken 40mg of V in place of 2mg of K; is that to mean you actually did the 20:1 V:K switch and sustained it for two days?

 

From what you said about replacing just one dose so far, my suggestion is just to switch that one dose back from V to K all at once; I'm not an expert, but I think that's the simplest approach given your apparent issues with V.  I'm so glad to hear you're aware of your general histamine situation with the mirtazapine and the V combined; if you're itching, I'd say you're headed back to safe waters with the return to K.

 

You probably know, it's possible to taper K safely to zero. I suggest you stabilize first back on your full K dose, then post on the direct taper or titration board with your goals for tapering K; I hope to see you there! 

Thanks SlowNSteady.

 

Sorry I was unclear . I meant I have tried a total of 8 doses of 5 mg V already to replace the total 8 doses of K to equal the 20:1 ratio just on my afternoon dose for 8 weeks to see if I could tolerate the V over time before switching out another dose. This was probably dumb I realize but I wanted to see if I could get used to one of 4 doses at a time before switching another dose and now with that much V in my system, I’m wondering if it is ok to just go right back to the K again for that dose without going into withdrawal from V.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Thanks Storm

Sorry I meant 8 days of doses not 8 weeks!

 

Benzo head me 

 

Actually Storm survivor what you did by substituting just one dose is excellent! Ashton recommends this with a night time dose, because V can be so sedating, but you've saved yourself a LOT of trouble, I think, by not switching over all at once like some people do. Hooray!

 

So yes, there may be a slight adjustment period as you return to K, but I think you're in the best position to do this switch, and I'd do it all at once. I suggest you give yourself a week or so to make sure you're stable on the K before tapering, if possible.

 

I hope this helps.

Thanks SnS! You are very kind.

 

Next questions:

though I was only on .5 K a year ago with some interdose tolerance, just feeling sort of out of sorts during the day, but since then I have VERY rapidly become tolerant to it K and have withdrawal symptoms such as heart palps, cement legs, formications, pins and needles, poor temperature control throughout body, akathesia, cog fog, and gut issues to name a few.

 

I’d like to start a slow and steady taper off K with scale which I have and that is why the thought to go to Valium seemed most ideal until I find I can’t really tolerate V very well probably because it interacts poorly with Mirtazapine. Lots of weird GI and itching and just feel sick even with the one dose substitution thus far though one dose is probably tolerable. Histamine issues are very concerning on both these drugs.

 

If I have K increased again for more stability when does it stop? Seems my brain/CNS is in very rapid tolerance mode. I have kids and grandkids and a husband who need me to be as functional as possible and I’m not afraid of discomfort and pain, just don’t want to be bedridden if I can avoid that. Wish I could drop the Mirtazapine but can’t be done rapidly and know I won’t sleep either. Got on that last Fall desperate for sleep but it is also doing things to my CNS that may not be compatible with healing from K. I’ve heard that it releases gaba and serotonin and other chemicals and that will interfere with the natural healing coming of benzos.

 

What to do? I will be 70 soon and don’t want to injure myself too badly on the way down but I’m far from stable to start a taper on K and I know rapid withdrawal would be a disaster. So many relative withdrawal symptoms already. A year ago I was taking 10 mile bike rides and walking 3 miles, now feel I’m 95 and often can’t climb stairs without getting winded many days.

 

Have you heard of anyone adding in just one dose of Valium to other K doses? Since I’ve already started that I could continue and probably tolerate.

 

I would consider the complete cross to V but the the histamine issues with both Mirtazapine and V seem incompatible as I previously stated.

 

I’m in a bad fix as I’ve been on K far too long and didn’t feel a need to address it until events over the last year. I also can suffer from depression from certain drugs like Gabapentin.

 

Kind of a hot mess!

 

Do people start long tapers when already in relative withdrawal? Holding never worked in the last few months either. I’m afraid this will ensure a protracted result and injury long term.  I think I burned out my GABA receptors possibly for good. I just don’t stabilize when updosing.

 

Thanks so much for responding. My doctor wants to help and the Valium plan seemed ok but my only thought now is continue tapering Mirtazapine and possibly holding on the one of 4 doses of V which does seem to have “hang time” now or go back to only K and updose again then start going down right away microtapering K.

 

I SO appreciate your thoughts and advice. Feel very disheartened. Want to go back in time and make better decisions. Don’t we all?

 

Sorry so long and pathetic!

 

Thanks again, STORM (aka Gramma V) God Bless!

 

 

Hey Storm survivor; you're getting a good idea of your situation, and I'm sorry it's looking so poor right now. There's nothing pathetic about trying to address this and get support! I wish I was a more advanced benzo expert; I really don't know much about mirtazapine and I've personally never been in clonazepam tolerance withdrawal. I also wish that there were doctors who I'd trust to help you.

 

All I know is that once you're in tolerance, the ship has sailed; you can updose, but it's a delay tactic that might not even work and can make things more difficult in the long run. Most people in tolerance seem to get advised to switch benzos or to start tapering. The biggest issue that stands out to me is your age; it's possible that your nervous system will struggle to recover from the neuro-toxic effects of long-term benzo use, but that's only what I've heard.

 

The best idea I have at the moment is to consider if there are ways to improve your histamine levels with diet. There are some expensive enzyme supplements that seem to cut down on the DAO needed in the gut for people eating histamine-rich foods, and there are also low-histamine diets; I favor the second approach. Itching could also be a sign that your having broader gut issues, and the diazepam is just hindering your bodies already compromised systems. It sounds like that may also be the case with the mirtazapine; I'm going off your comments on that one.

 

I know people sometimes take multiple benzos concurrently, but I can't say what advantage that would have in your situation. If possible, I'd consider addressing broader health issues, especially gut and other chronic sources of inflammation. If these conditions are improved I might suggest trying a V crossover again.

 

In the mean time, I'd suggest returning to K and trying a very gradual taper; maybe 5% / 14 days or thereabouts. Since you are a very long-term user, I'd advise against doing a symptom-based taper; many long-term users report the brunt of their WD symptoms only showing up after many months of tapering. If you can go slowly to start, this could save from you getting squashed with WD down the road. 2-3 years of tapering might be a reasonable timeframe for 1mg/day of K.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer you more. Poly-drug situations are really difficult for doctors, and I'm not one. You sound like you're very brave and have good priorities; I hope myself and others on this forum can support you in making progress on your health goals.