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DIAZEPAM IN PG/Alcohol Solubality


[Mu...]

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Hi,

 

 

I am trying to make a solution with PG and diazepam. Cut and hold is not really working very well for me...

On many internet resources it states taking 2 ml of PG per 1 mg Benzo, but this honestly makes a lot of PG if you are on the higher range of dosing in your taper.

 

I found this link http://www.fshealth.gov.za/subsites/DWoods/Mixtures/diazepam.html (looks a legitimate Governmental link) where it is stated :

 

Diazepam has a solubility in water of 0.05mg per mL; 41mg per mL in 95% ethanol and 17mg per mL in propylene glycol.

 

Since this above info suggests I could add 17 mg of diazepam in 1 ml of PG, I was wondering why it mentions on so many resources out there that you should take 2ml for 1 mg benzo.

 

My plan is to add 10 mg per 1 ml PG until it is disolved and afterwards dilute further with water to reach an easy volume for dose calculation.

 

Could anyone share their insights or experience in this?

 

Thanks,

 

Musa

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[ef...]

I'm not familiar with the 2 ml PG per 1 mg benzo guideline, but the solubility is sufficient that a few ml of PG should dissolve 10 mg valium.  You're probably not going to realize the same solubilities that the reference mentioned.  That requires sonication and lots of stirring. 

 

Be sure to give it time when you make the slurry.  Mix it around for several minutes before diluting/using.

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Thank you for your reply. I might be overthinking it ... I needed to dissolve about 40 mg and end up with about 200ml. I took about 10 ml PG and 2 ml Ethanol and let the 4 X 10 mg tablets in there for about 12 hours.

 

Annoying (for me annoying and my stress levels) is that you still keep having some particles in there, people say that those are most likely fillers and other things but you never really know I guess.

 

Greetings,

 

Musa

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Just as an aside, you could do a hybrid liquid/tablet taper. This method lets you do a liquid titration but use tablets to cover any amount of the dose(s) that is possible (basically assuming you can accurately cut 1/4 pills, which is easy with this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MH6XTL7). With a hybrid liquid/tablet taper you consume FAR less liquid and thus solvent, especially if you're up at higher pill counts per day.

 

Here is how I generate my liquid/tablet schedule...

http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php

 

That's very interesting information about diazepam solubility. I'd really like to know what those numbers would be for clonazepam; in the mean time I err on the side of PLENTY of ethanol, and very tiny liquid doses.

 

And I know, the tablet particles are annoying! But just refrigerate, and shake well before dosing. It all seems to work out if you take your dose in a few minutes anyways. When anxiety gets you about this, just remember, people are successfully titrating with plain water...  :thumbsup:

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just one of the references about the 2ml per 1mg benzo:

 

http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationHelp.htm?help=Readme+First

 

taken from above resource:

How much solvent?

Several people use normal vodka for solvent. Vodka is ethanol diluted with water. Vodka 80 proof contains ~40% ethanol, 60% water. Strongest Ethanol 95% can be found with Everclear.

The rule of thumb is:

For 95% alcohol (190 proof): 1mg benzo --> 1ml of alcohol (1x)

For 40% alcohol (80 proof): 1mg benzo --> 2ml of alcohol (2x)

For instance if 40% alcohol vodka is used, 1 ml of vodka will be needed to dilute 0.5 mg of benzo.

 

 

So indeed it sounds better to use a combo of Pills and tablets if above guidelines are to be taken seriously.

 

Thanks for your input.

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[ef...]
Benzo solubility in alcohol actually varies depending on the benzo.  This 2 ml per 1 mg rule doesn't take that into account.  Nor does that guideline seem to come from any study (at least there's no reference).  I'm sure 2 ml is fine for 1 mg of Ativan or klonopin, but I'd hate to see somebody use 25 ml of vodka to solubilize 12 mg of valium.  That's like a full shot of spirits.  That's too much alcohol for most people, and from what I've seen, you don't need that much alcohol to solubilize valium.
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Thanks for the reply.

 

I indeed don't feel like ingesting that amount of alcohol, that is also why I asked the question ...as even being hungry, or the freaking doorbel throws me in a state I don't really want to be in. So adding a daily shot of vodka feels like throwing a can of gasoline on my burning house.

 

But nobody really seem to be able to give an exact number or is capable of sharing their tested/working formula...In the mentioned study (legitimate study) it states 17mg per mL is possible.  But then this is under laboratory conditions and apparently according to a lot of people cannot be mimicked at home in your kitchen, so some of the responses I got to this question on this forum and from other sources indicate :

 

- A few...

- Some...

- Not that much

- A pinch

- A little

- ...

 

And please don't take this the wrong way, as I know everybody here is of good will and tries to help out, for which I am grateful and thankful, but it doesn't really give an exact workable answer.

 

 

 

 

 

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Read this if you have a chance...

 

http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationHelp.htm?help=Readme+First

 

While it's no medical journal document, it specifically states a rule of thumb for 1ml 190 proof alcohol to 1mg of benzo. Double that alcohol amount if it's 80 proof, like vodka.

 

An example given is:

1 mg of Diazepam --> 2 ml of alcohol to dilute + 8 ml of water will make a 10 ml final solution of 0.1 mg/ml concentration.

 

Personally I use about 2.5ml 180 proof organic grape alcohol / 1mg of clonazepam. I make a fairly concentrated formula like the one above, diluted to 0.125mg/ml, and I use tablets for most of my doses. My liquid dose is the only portion I titrate, so I only ever take 0.25ml of alcohol per day MAX, and this gets smaller as I titrate my liquid dose.

 

The recipe I'm using is: 10ml 180 proof alcohol to dissolve 7.5 crushed 0.5mg clonazepam tablets in a mortar & pestle. Transferred to a glass 50ml graduated cylinder, stirred, danced around, etc, then diluted to 30ml with pure water. Transferred to a liquid medicine bottle with a syringe adapter. Shaken vigorously before dosing, and stored in the refrigerator.

 

0.125mg/ml = 1/4 of a 0.5mg pill/ml. I remove 1/4 of a pill from one of my doses, and taper that 1/4 pill by liquid dosing the above formula; this way each 0.01ml is 1% of the missing 1/4 pill. Today I took 0.83ml, which is 83% of the 1/4 pill the liquid is currently replaced with liquid. At my chosen rate, I'll be down to 0% in another 10 days or so of daily micro tapering this way; then I either stabilize or move onto another 1/4 pill replacement.

 

I hope this helps! Sorry if I've ended up repeating myself on this thread.

It's more than a pinch, less than a pour.  :P

 

Edit: FYI http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php can be used to create your own liquid/tablet DMT using the liquid described in the Read Me link above, and an 1ml oral syringe with 100 gradations like these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01628CDEE

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[ef...]

Saying something is a rule of thumb doesn't make it one.  Again, it's fine to mix 2-3-4 ml of alcohol with your benzo.  I see no reason to mix 25 ml with 12 mg of valium.  That seems like too much alcohol to me.

 

That's the issue we face with all of these home-made liquid preparations.  We can point to some papers and theorize, but we have no robust proof of how well the drug gets dissipated or how stable the 'solution' is.  I can get HPLC/UPLC time, but no longer have any pills to test.

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Well badsocref that is indeed my hurdle... I was switched from a strong short half life benzo to diazepam (thank god because interdose withdrawal was a B***),  2 mg equaled 20 mg of diazepam, that was my starting point, but that means you end up having to ingest multiple mg per day.

 

So slownsteady, please bare in mind that some people are on something like 40 mg of diazepam per day and that is probably not even much by some of the standards I have seen here. So if they would need to use a home compounded liquid they would need to ingest 80 ml of normal vodka per day according to that rule....that's 2 shots of vodka, no disrespect to our Russian friends but in my current state I couldn't even think of drinking a 10th of that amount.

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[ef...]

PubMed lists the solubility of valium in 95% ethanol at around 1 gram per 16 ml of solvent.  That's a little over 60 mg/ml.

 

60 mg/ml might be difficult to achieve at home, but I don't think dissolving 20 or 30 mg in 1-2 ml should present any difficulties.  Just take your time.  Give it 5 minutes to dissolve.  Mix it around occasionally.

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So slownsteady, please bare in mind that some people are on something like 40 mg of diazepam per day and that is probably not even much by some of the standards I have seen here. So if they would need to use a home compounded liquid they would need to ingest 80 ml of normal vodka per day according to that rule....that's 2 shots of vodka, no disrespect to our Russian friends but in my current state I couldn't even think of drinking a 10th of that amount.

 

Sure, I understand Musa B; you're looking to convert your entire daily dose into liquid. I do a hybrid liquid/tablet taper, so I don't have to make or take hardly any liquid at all; clonazepam is notoriously hard to dissolve in ethanol (or solvents in general) so I go a little heavy and I get more preservation. 80+% of my current daily dose is in tablets; they're cheap, stable, easy to dose and this arrangement reduces the impact of any variability in my homebrew liquid compared to the tablets. I personally think that hybrid liquid/tablet tapers are the best of both worlds; precise tapering amounts but only a single liquid dose a day! Others may disagree; I'm personally on four doses currently, so the benefits add up.

 

I definitely think badsocref has your answer in his most recent post; if you want a concentrated formula and intend to replace your full daily dose with an ethanol-dissolved liquid, yeah I agree to go light on the alcohol. I'm curious what dilution you'd end up producing; if you leave it concentrated it will keep longer but you might need a second step to create your daily dilution/reduction accurately. Or if you dilute the whole batch it I'm thinking you'll need to mix up a new batch every day or so.

 

My 30ml lasts 50-60 days or so by my taper schedule, because it's only ever replacing 1/4 pill of my daily dose; and at 25% ethanol, I trust it will keep in the fridge. I'm only crushing and stirring and waiting and measuring and pouring and fretting every month or two. Does this come with a guarantee? No! But as I may have said before... people are titrating with plain water.  :idiot: I take a little liquid gamble every day, and then it's good old tablets.

 

I see Badsocref has definitely done more towards answering your request. He's a smart cookie.

I'm glad you're getting where you want to go.  :thumbsup:

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