Liquid DMT vs Dry taper Help please - Ativan

Hi All,

Would like some advice please... currently withdrawing from a failed crossover from Ativan to Valium.

When the Valium taper is over and once I’ve stablised I’d like to DMT taper of Ativan. Was originally thinking combining my Ativan tablets and using compunded liquid Lorazepam for 0.5mg dose and taper from there. After this very unsuccessful Valium crossover I’m super nervous about trialling a coumponded liquid generic. Especially if I’m using it in combo with tablets....different absorption rates, new drug. Liquid not agreeing with me etc.

Any thoughts, responses from people that have tried it or are currently using a compounded liquid. I’m not keen to make it at home or do liquid titration. Benzo brain.

Also looking into dry tapering. Scales to use? Method to use? Any direction would be grateful....

Daily taper calculation? Eg. Aiming for 2.5% over 14 days

A 2.5% reduction over 14 days is a 0.18% reduction each day.  Multiply the previous dose times 0.9982 to obtain the next dosage.  You'll only be able to weigh to the nearest milligram, so round as appropriate.

A lot of folks buy a GEM-20 scale from Amazon.  It does a decent job for ~$25.

Thank you sooo much for reply badsocref.

Is this the scale recommended?

[nobbc]https://www.amazon.com.au/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-Precision-Milligram/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Weigh+Scales+AWS-Gemini+Precision+Digital+Milligram+Scale%2C+Silver+20+X+0.001+G&qid=1613288068&sr=8-1[/nobbc]

I’m in Australia so looks like no one stocks them here, I’ll have import from amazon. A little investment but I’m sure it’s worth it.

Sorry to ask such a stupid question... according to your calculation my dose would look like this

Day 1 1.49mg (1 tablet + measure 0.49mg tablet =0.049grams) + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

Day 2 1.48mg + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

Day 3 1.47mg + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

This scale can measure 0.01grams? For my smallest cut?

Also, you wouldn’t happen to know of any recommendations for a good pill cutter? The ones at the pharmacy just crumble the tablets.

My brain hurts 🤯. Very grateful for your help.

Edit: Deactivated commercial link.

*0.0049grams?

Lowest dose: 0.0001?

Im lost!

This looks to be the same balance, but is a little less expensive...

[nobbc]https://www.amazon.com.au/Precision-Digital-Tweezers-Calibration-Weight/dp/B06XWBH633/ref=sr_1_2?[/nobbc]

You guys pay about twice what we have to pay in the states.

These scales can measure 0.001 g (1 mg).  The accuracy is really somewhere around 3-5 mg, but it's close enough.  When the weight of your pill crumbs gets down to just a few milligrams, it's probably time to jump.  You'll never get down to 0.0001 g. 

0.0049 grams is about 5 mg.  You can weigh that (0.005 g).

When I weighed pill samples at the lab, I'd put several pills into a small baggie and crush the pills into a fine powder using a hammer.  Then I'd weigh out the desired amount of powder using a spatula.  You have to keep the pill crumbs dry (away from humidity if you live in a humid part of the continent).

I'm not exactly sure what this means... 

Day 1 1.49mg (1 tablet + measure 0.49mg tablet =0.049grams) + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

Day 2 1.48mg + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

Day 3 1.47mg + 0.5mg + 0.5mg

Edit: Deactivated commercial link.

Thank you for your reply.

So it looks like I am unable to use dry cut method?

I’ll be cutting from Ativan 1mg tablets (not sure of the weight but probably too small to register) and cutting down from there.

Am I right in saying that this tablet probably won’t even register on the scales given it’s so small?

Thank you.

Crushing & weighing the pills is considered dry cutting.

The pills will easily register on the scale.  They'll probably weigh somewhere between 100 and 200 mg (0.100 - 0.200 g).

Hey Badsocref mathematician!

Sorry for the delayed reply, I was waiting on the weight of my tablet from my pharmacist so that I could provide you with a weight.

Can I possibly get your help again to re-calculate my daily taper please....

Ativan tablet 1mg = 100mg weight

The tablet is scored so it can be cut to 0.5mg

My current dose is

1.5mg (1+1/2 tablet) 6am, 0.5mg (1/2 tablet) 1.30pm, 0.5mg (1/2 tablet) 9.30pm

Total daily dose 2.5mg

I plan to taper using the scales. Ordered today!

I will breaking the tablet in 1/2 then file with a nail file to create each dose, if possible.

Initial aim 2.5% reduction of TOTAL dose over 14 days. W/d symptoms depending, will hold when needed or reduce daily amt or %.

I’d like to start reducing the morning dose so that I eventually have 3 even doses.

1.5mg = 1 x 1mg tablet (I will weigh to ensure measurement is 1mg/xxmg weight and consume)

Plus.... cut 1/2 tablet and ensure measurement using scale is 0.5mg = 50mg weight. File to daily dose reduction and consume. (This will also give me my midday and night dose reductions when I’m ready as they are both currently each 0.5mg.

So I need a daily reduction amount  based on 0.5mg dose but the actual reduction is based on 2.5% of the total =2.5mg a day

I hope my explanation is not too confusing.

Master Mathematician...Can you please supply me with a calculation so I can see how you arrived at your answer too.

I assume the reduction will be based on weight or converted to weight?

I’d like to see my daily reduction in weight and mg and % if possible. Just so if I need to make % lower etc  I don’t need to hassle you.

I’ve been on Ativan for 1.5 years maybe I should start with lower daily reduction and build up? What do you think?

I’ve tried cut and hold and I’ve really suffered. I’ve tried a c/o to Valium and became very sick for months and I’m in the middle of a brutal taper off Diazapam and barely functioning. I’m reluctant to swap to liquid of generic of Ativan, which will be compounded Lorazapam.

Once I’ve finished my taper of Valium I will hold and hopefully stabilise before commending DMT.

DMT makes sense to me and is currently my only hope. I’m not confident enough to crush tablets etc but I’m so keen to file and weigh. I’m looking forward to the DMT technique and hope it gives me and my body time to adjust and I don’t suffer such brutal w/d symptoms with each reduction.

I’m so very grateful for your help with this... so comforting to know I have a person with a working math brain to call my friend during this journey. 🤗

A 2.5% reduction over 14 days is a 0.18% reduction each day.  Multiply the previous dose times 0.9982 to obtain the next dosage.  You'll only be able to weigh to the nearest milligram, so round as appropriate.

Applying this to a 100 mg pill will be easy ...

This won't cut/paste from MS Excel properly, but hopefully you get the idea.  First column is day number; second is the AM dose (in grams); third is the other doses (also in grams); fourth column is the 2nd column rounded to three figures since that is the limit of your balance; fifth is the other doses rounded.  In each case, the previous value is multiplied by 0.9982

Day # AM Dose (g) Other Doses (g) Rounded AM (g) Rounded Others (g)

1 0.15000 0.05000 0.150 0.050

2 0.14973 0.04991 0.150 0.050

3 0.14946 0.04982 0.149 0.050

4 0.14919 0.04973 0.149 0.050

5 0.14892 0.04964 0.149 0.050

6 0.14865 0.04955 0.149 0.050

7 0.14839 0.04946 0.148 0.049

8 0.14812 0.04937 0.148 0.049

9 0.14785 0.04928 0.148 0.049

10 0.14759 0.04920 0.148 0.049

11 0.14732 0.04911 0.147 0.049

12 0.14706 0.04902 0.147 0.049

13 0.14679 0.04893 0.147 0.049

14 0.14653 0.04884 0.147 0.049

It'll kind of end up looking like a cut and hold with very small (1 mg) cuts.  You've chosen a slow taper rate, and we can't cut by less than a milligram of pill weight. 

Be sure to check the weight of the pills on your scale when you receive it.  I kind of doubt that they're exactly 0.100 grams.  The pharmacist probably rounded the weight off.  If (for example) the average pill weight is actually 0.103 g, we'll want to use that weight and run the calculations again.

I hope this all makes sense.  Feel free to ask for clarifications.  I'm on the golf course soon, so it'll be some hours before I can get back to this.

Wow! You’re a genius! Thank you. The excel spreadsheet would be useful, it’s a pity this can’t be attached.

I see the reductions amounts are tiny. Is this based on 1% cut over 14 days?

0.9982 how did you arrive at this figure?

If I wanted to speed things up how do I re-calculate? Eg. 2.5% reduction over 14 days or 5%

No hurry to respond. Still trying to taper off Valium and waitung on scales.

Once I get the scales I’ll weigh the tablets and let you know.

The best part about your reply was the fact you were busy and about to play golf. Gives me hope!

I’m really struggling at the moment so it was nice to hear someone functioning and participating in life again.

Thanks again for helping me.

Where did 0.9982 come from?  Here...

=EXP(LN(0.975)/14)

0.975 is (1 - (your 14-day taper rate))

14 is the number of days you requested to reach a 2.5% cut

To change to a 5% (per 14 day) rate, simply change 0.975 to 0.95

=EXP(LN(0.950)/14)

fwiw - reducing a starting dose of 2.5 mg at a rate of 2.5% every two weeks would take a few years to complete.  There's nothing wrong with that time frame.  If you want to go faster, it should be based on your symptoms, not an inflexible time line.

I have a cute little spreadsheet which I can make available as a download.  I can even put all of your info on it.  If you're feeling good and want to speed up, the spreadsheet can adjust the rate for you to some extent.  I think it can triple the final taper speed if you give it all 90+% ratings each day.  It can also slow down the taper rate if you're feeling really lousy.  It's all based on input you provide each day regarding how you feel. 

You'll need to get an accurate average pill weight first.

I think the spreadsheet will be useful. Nothing beats a good spreadsheet!

I’m not keen to taper over years but of course will be guided by symptoms. Would be great to have a reliable and flexible calculation to help with this.

The scales should arrive mid March...I’ll let you know the true average weight then and we can go from there, if that’s ok.

BTW... You’re amazing! Thank you for staying with bb to help others.

Badsocref... Im so confused!!!

My brain won’t allow me to think clearly, convert % etc. so crappy bc this is was I did on a daily basis for work before this benzo brain!

Anyway, had another little think about how I might like to approach my DMT. Even though the spreadsheet sounds wonderful I think I need to see and work out the caluculation using a formula and a calculatior (old all rules!!!)

I don’t want to take years to get off this. I suffer terrible symptoms on it.

Initially I’d like to taper 0.1mg off my total Ativan intake every 14 days and not the weight of the tablet. What does that equal in %? Just so I know if I need to slow down I can change %. Or amt. I’d like to see a calculation I can use with these two variables I can change and then apply to the weight of the tablet.

I need a calculation for 0.5mg dose only so I can the apply to the 0.5mg tablet I have in the morning and just take the 1mg tablet. The % reduction is still based on the overal current daily dose of 2.5mg and not the 0.5mg dose.  This way I have the correct dose going all the way through the taper to simply the process🤞

Please allow for what the scales can do, it just confuses me more to see extra numbers. Looking for simple cut each day.

I’m sorry if this is confusing, it’s even more frustrating to explain. I appreciate your patience with me.

For example: my calculation is incorrect but here’s what I’ve worked out 2.5mg -0.1 =2.4mg. 0.1/14days=0.007mg. This is the same amount everyday for 14days, I am unable to figure out a daily reduction to arrive at 0.1mg after 14 days.

Also What % is this?

What weight will I need to be reduce everyday. How is this calculated.

Please help me simplify things. I’m stressed and scared. I’m just thinking ahead and trying to give myself something to look forward to while I’m tapering off Valium at the moment. Unsuccessful cross over. Not functioning.

Thank you for your understanding. Hopefully I’ll be a math genius like you at the end of all this!

🤗