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Total serotonin depletion--why can you take SSRIs but not 5HTP or L-tryp


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My doc says he believes I am very depleted in serotonin based on what is going on with me--and the psych wants me to go to hospital and be put on SSRI but in the past gave me akathisia (which i still deal with), but I have no feeling, no cognition, no memory and i know benzos deplete serotonin.  why is it ok for everyone to say to take ssris (ashton) but not 5 htp or sam-e or l-tryptophan.  I need studies, not anecdotes cuz i'm feeling very close to the end.  know someone else on the forum who feels totally normal now taking an ssri and was able to withdraw from benzo.  i know there is no magic to this being easy, but i need to do something cuz i don't care anymore about anything and can't reason
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Akathisia is also caused by Antipsychotics, I've had it, you can't sit still for the life of you.

It's a side effect of the AP's and AD's.. as for your question, I don't know.

 

Keryn.

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I would run away from any doctor who claims to "think" you are depleted in a neurotransmitter, nutrient, hormone, etc.  You can test for these things and they should be acting on facts not assumptions.
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being tested ryan--supposedly one of the most thorough and accurate in the world (of course???)--thanks just need to intervene while waiting 3 weeks for tests to return
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benzos absolutely deplete serotonin and I think I started with none to begin with (had gotten very thin and started having trouble with sleep and adrenaline and started on benzos, then a/ds then withdrawals) and now a year later I doubt I have a drop left--have a holistic MD who is doing a bunch of testing (i know everyone will say it's a waste) and truly believes he can help me by finding out what my body and brain and screaming for---takes 3 weeks to process...all i know is he told me to take l-tryptophan and took today and this is the first day in 2 weeks i haven't prayed for God to take me--yesterday i could feel nothing, understand nothing, remember nothing, do nothing and was a complete vegetable--may be a fluke but last night i wrote a note that i didn't want to live and today i was laughing with my daughter.  don't feel good, but don't want to die
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I had a dr test me....had to send in saliva and urine !!  said i had like no gaba or seratonin...  ???  Recommended neurontin !!!  I said no !!
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I don't understand why they would test serotonin in that way.  The serotonin molecule is too large to pass the blood brain barrier,  you would need a sample of cerebral fluid to perform a test.  Even so, the amount of serotonin in your brain is not actually the issue,  it is the rate of re-uptake that is the problem.  Drugs are not prescribed to increase levels of serotonin, from what I have learned that would be incredibly dangerous.  SSRIs ADs work by reducing the re-uptake rate of serotonin thus leaving more available for brain function.

 

Drugs such as ecstasy work by increasing serotonin levels, it is one of the mechanisms that make it so dangerous.

 

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why is it ok for everyone to say to take ssris (ashton) but not 5 htp or sam-e or l-tryptophan.  

 

I don't know.  I have not seen where people say it's okay to take AD's but not the others.

 

The doc that helped me taper suggested tryptophan as well because I was in a deep, dark pit myself a year ago.  I did not try it because I was too paranoid at the time to introduce anything new into my body.  If the tryptophan works for you, then by all means don't feel bad about taking it.  Different things work for different people. Some cannot tolerate supplements or Ad's of any kind, while others get relief.  You have to do what works for you. ;)

 

I hope you get relief soon!  

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Hi Memom,

 

It's not clear to me from your post who says it's not okay to take 5-HTP or L-tryptophan. I thought I had always heard that those two were okay. Besides, as I recall, 5-HTP is quite similar to an SSRI, in that it tends to boost serotonin levels. And, of course tryptophan's in turkey and other foods. Very curious to know who said it's NOT okay.

 

Thanks,

 

Albie

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hi memom,

 

i hope you feel a bit better.

 

not long ago i was depressed more than i could tolerate so i pulled

out the tryptophan (which as you may know is best taken away

from protein, and with a little B6 and C) and took 250mg three

times a day. instant improvement. it got me through that dip. now

i'm not taking it but am glad it is in my drawer.

 

there is the rare person who reacts adversely to tryptophan.

sounds like you're okay with it.

 

if it helps, go for it!

 

violet

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Hi

 

i too had my gaba, seratonin, dopamine levels checked thru natureopath.. it exists!!! thru saliva testn, and urine... was almost $400 test, i did a year ago sept.. and i was still on paxil and benzos at that time... and my levels were low then.. umm... weird!!! and now off paxil 8 months and 9 months off benzos nov 19th.. pretty crazzy and im sure my levels are at rock bottom now.. which too affects our energy levels etc... not good..

 

me too my results took almost 3 weeks... and also, gave lots of tips on why i had alot of other things going on.. symptom wise... but im still struggling w ongoing extreme fatigue!! its not fun..

 

let usknow ur results...

 

hope

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Memon,

 

You say you don't want anecdotes, but correct me if I'm wrong -  studies are nothing more than a compilation of anecdotes...

 

I can go pretty deep into this topic, but I will attempt to sum this up for you...

 

 

SSRI's do cross the blood brain barrier and they do attempt to regulate serotonin levels (which cannot be tested by accepted methods in today's medicine).  We know the levels are low because, well- because we feel like death and in fact we may even welcome it at times.  A holistic doctor will claim to measure your levels through urine and saliva but these are not accepted methods yet!    How do you regulate the flow of water through a hose when the water welle is empty?  You can't!  You can attempt to suck water out of the soil, but a dry welle is a dry welle.

 

Ask yourself why the serotonin levels are depleted in the first place and you will soon realize that it is because the mind needed to use every last resource to fight off the depressive and antagonizing taper and extended healing process.  This is not only psychological, but it has also affected and disrupted our very own life cycle by stopping us in our tracts.  Okay, so we now have come to acceptance that - Yes, my serotonin levels are in fact depleted and I am not the only person experiencing this - We can move on.  We're not crazy after all...

 

Besides, serotonin is not the only chemical that is depleted.  I don't know about you but I experienced a tremendous amount of pain during this process.  It has been said that we are hyper sensitive during this process, and while that is true we are not making up the fact that every nerve ending in our body is screaming.  So, now that we realized that our pain is not totally irrational; we must ask ourselves what chemical in the brain is used to combat pain?  Obviously many of us know the answer is dopamine and if you are like many of us on here; you too have probably idealized about going on a prescription strength pain killer like percocet or vicodin- Heck why hold out there... and lets go for oxycontin.. besides we have the same pain as someone with fibromyalgia.   Again, these medication do regulate levels of dopamine and they work the same way SSRI's do by pumping these chemicals into the brain.  However, eventually they stop working and we need a higher dose?  

 

Sound like a good idea yet?

 

Though 5-HTP is found in food only in insignificant quantities, it is a chemical involved intermediately in the metabolism of tryptophan, an amino acid found in turkey, milk, potatoes, pumpkin, and various greens.  The problem is that when you take an amino acid like 5-HTP in a supplement form along with an SSRI you will most defiantly get a serotonin overdose which can result in mania (PLEASE BE CAREFUL).  Taking tryptophan is like eating a pumpkin seed as it will eventually be broken down and metalized into 5-HTP.  See the image below to understand how these amino acids work and eventually lead to something that the brain can use to properly heal.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Trp-5ht-pathway.png/600px-Trp-5ht-pathway.png

 

After taking a good hard look at this diagram you will see why 5-HTP used in conjunction with an SSRI will give a person a serotonin overdose.  

 

If you are not taking an SSRI, then and only then would it be safe for you to take a supplemented dose of 5-HTP.  The recommended dose is anywhere from 50mg to 400mg, however the supplement only comes in a dose of 50mg for a reason.  I cannot and will not give advise via the internet to someone on this forum as it is frowned upon to what dose you should consume.  However I will tell you that many people who use MDMA (Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, commonly known as ecstasy) use this supplement in large doses to help repair/restore the serotonin levels after stupidly ingesting a 'club drug'.

 

Ask yourself this question-  What is the first thing that happens when you cut your finger?  The most common response I have received is:  It bleeds!   While that is correct, it is also not complete.  The complete answer is:  It begins to heal.   The skin is an organ just like the brain and it uses blood to heal and restore the damaged tissues.  

 

Then ask yourself this question?  Why do nutritionists and body builders always suggest ingesting whey protein within 30 minutes after a workout?  The answer that you have heard is:  "Well, that is the window of opportunity."  While this is correct, it is not complete.  Whey protein as well as branch chain amino acids give the muscles the proper levels or if  not more ammunition for you to restore and re-build your damaged muscles that your particular genetic makeup allows for- as it is individual.  It is a matter of fact that amino acids can be metalized in order to feed the brain the proper nutrition that it needs to heal.  Did your brain just go through the biggest workout in it's life?  I know mine did and I will give it all of the nutrition and food that is available so it doesn't go into the reserves.  What are reserves?  Good question... In the body the reserves are muscles as they weigh more and the body knows this, so it will begin to tear them apart and converting them into food (carbs/fat).  What is the brain? ... the brain is an organ that is comprised of fat.  There are however safety mechanism built into the human gene pool to stop us from converting our brain into food.  THE BRAIN WILL HEAL ON ITS OWN - eventually - as long as you keep eating food.  What are supplements? - They are metalized food (ie: tryptophan is to 5-HTP AS a potato is to tryptophan).

 

While we are on the subject of food, let's talk about Omega -3.  What is Omega-3?  An Omega - 3 supplement is a fatty acid in its purist form that contains more than sufficient levels of DHA and DPA.  These fatty acids are commonly found in fish, however since the mercury scare they were removed from many of our common cooking oils.  If you are over the age of 25 you most likely developed without the proper levels of these fatty acids.  It's not a total loss as the mind and body are organs and can/will repair themselves.  There are many compilations in recent times that have proven that DHA in particular are essential for proper brain function (being that the brain is comprised of mostly fat).

 

 

Oh yea!  We forgot about all of the pain we were in!  Dopamine.... oh how we wish we could take a magic pill to take away our pain.  Do we want a permanent solution or do we want a band-aid fix?  If you are on this forum, I am guessing you have finally come to the realization that there are no quick fixes in life worth living.  If you are looking for an amino acid that is a precursor to dopamine much like the way 5-HTP is to serotonin then you don't have to look real far.  As I'm sure we are all experts in using Google and we would come to realize that dl-phenylalanine is the precursor to dopamine.

 

What you soon realize is that you simply need to provide food for your mind, body, and soul.  How fast you provide the food and appropriate supplements that are ideal for you are individual.  I cannot tell you that it will help, and I honestly don't know, however these seem to be a lot safer than AD's, Benzos and Opiates.  

 

**If you are beyond any form of help at home, and you will know it when you are please seek outside help**

 

Ziggy

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I spent a very long time researching this.  I know that I would never go back on an SSRI or any prescription med and wanted to find a solution that is long term.  The good news is once you get the levels restored you can get off the supplements and live your life.  This is not an immediate fix, but it is better than any alternative process I've found.  We are all different so we have to be really careful... and I'm not saying this is for everyone.

 

Oh yea.. a little more biochem:

 

In order for 5-HTP and dl-phenylalanine to cross the blood brain barrier there has to be significant amounts of vitamin B6 and vitamin C present in your blood stream.  Most of these supplements come with an ample amount of these vits

 

Ziggy

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Here is a fact sheet on 5-HTP from the University of Maryland Medical Center:

 

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/5-hydroxytryptophan-000283.htm

 

One thing that it doesn't mention that I've read in another source is that most of the 5-HTP stays in the bloodstream (where it can cause problems with the heart and blood pressure I've heard) and does not make it to the brain.

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Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database rates effectiveness based on scientific evidence according to the following scale: Effective, Likely Effective, Possibly Effective, Possibly Ineffective, Likely Ineffective, Ineffective, and Insufficient Evidence to Rate.

 

The effectiveness ratings for 5-HTP are as follows:

 

Possibly effective for...

 

    * Depression. There is some evidence that 5-HTP might be about as effective as some prescription drugs for depression.

    * Fibromyalgia. Taking 5-HTP by mouth appears to improve symptoms of fibromyalgia including pain severity, morning stiffness, and sleeplessness.

 

See Below Source...

 

Here is a fact sheet on 5-HTP from the University of Maryland Medical Center:

 

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/5-hydroxytryptophan-000283.htm

 

One thing that it doesn't mention that I've read in another source is that most of the 5-HTP stays in the bloodstream (where it can cause problems with the heart and blood pressure I've heard) and does not make it to the brain.

 

I never mentioned that 5-HTP crosses the blood brain barrier however it does get metabolized as serotonin which does cross the blood brain barrier.  Listen guys and girls there are many studies out there that have been done my universities, peer review, and supplement companies.  If you think about it, what studies do we have for the psychotropic drugs other than the ones done by the pharmaceutical companies.  The pharma companies spend on average 800 million to 1 billion dollars to develop their drugs by using their own research and development team.  The giants then can go on to advertise their new drugs by spending another billion dollars in the first 6 months of its launch.  They are interested in one thing: Making you dependent on their medication, which is what keeps them in business.  They aren't real interested in keeping you healthy, but dependent as that is how they make more money. 

 

From what I know and have read you can't become dependent on 5-HTP, so it wouldn't be a profitable drug to invest in.

 

The below study is the most accurate compilation of studies done on 5-HTP.

 

http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ProxyServlet?objectHandle=DBMaint&actionHandle=default&nextPage=jsp/chemidlite/ResultScreen.jsp&TXTSUPERLISTID=0000056699

 

You will read about the good, bad, and the ugly as far as 5-HTP is concerned.

 

Ziggy

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I never mentioned that 5-HTP crosses the blood brain barrier however it does get metabolized as serotonin which does cross the blood brain barrier.  Listen guys and girls there are many studies out there that have been done my universities, peer review, and supplement companies

 

Ziggy

 

I was under the impression that serotonin molecules were too large to pass the blood brain barrier, only tryptophan and metabolite 5-HTP could pass through.  Then serotonin is produced by neurons in the raphe nuclei of the brainstem.

 

There's a really simple explanation here:

 

http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/serotonin_connection.html  (see points 1-10 in relation to this thread)

 

 

 

edit: link clarification

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Thanks for the link - but be careful as that is about HYPOGLYCEMIA not depression.  I understand that our serotonin levels are low and we may even show signs of Hypoglycemia, but the reason we are in a depression is because of benzo withdrawal.
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