Should I risk rescue dose?

My sleep suddenly changed is this normal so long off meds? Had bad sleep for years hence started zopiclone. Primary withdrawal symptom bad mental symptoms. Sleep has been about 5-6 hours night of broken sleep throughout with drawl, with few night when just can't sleep. Noticed about last fortnight wake about 4 am every morning, my quality of sleep is pretty reasonable, and thankfully mostly seem able get to sleep, so am grateful for that But only getting 4 hours night max just finding it exhausting and think it's not helping my anxiety with so little sleep. Just wondered if it's normal fir it to suddenly change at nearly 2 years off.  Just killing me trying cope severe anxiety now very little sleep. Wondering if just taking 1 zopiclone would do any damage as not coping.

I've noticed my sleep goes through changes depending on the season, the stupid time changes, things on my mind, noisy pets, hot flashes and aches and pains.  My routine never changes but the quality and amount does.  I think I'm just getting old and not sleeping like a baby anymore. 

Shame no one else responded. Just wondering why it's changed after nearly 2 years off, the quality of sleep is fairly good, but got quite bad mental symptoms/anxiety so only getting 4 hours sleep not great with those symptoms. Whether it's all part brain repairing don't know. Up to recently been getting 5  or so hours but broken sleep, the lockdown here driving me mad as can't do anything so maybe it's that?

Consider what your response would be if taking a single dose ended up giving you the sleep you crave. What would you do the next time sleep eludes you? Would you say no to the drug when it calls out to you, or would you begin to slide down a potentially steep slope? I would suggest giving it more time for your sleep to stabilize naturally and to try other alternative non-drug approaches.

leann, if I were you, I'd pursue other means for getting sleep. There have been plenty of suggestions on here. Getting more sleep does not depend on a drug/pill. There have been many behavioral suggestions on here.

 

Also, I would throw those zops away. (I had to do that with my Ambien). Take just one? As aloha suggested, what do you do next time if one "works"? Rationalize that you could maybe take two? Having them around is way too  much temptation, imo. Why not get rid of them? Indeed, the "one zop" is the slippery slope to more zops.

 

Sorry if I sound dogmatic, but I've been there. I decided "Nope" to just one Ambien. I'm glad I did. That forced me to find other ways to sleep.

 

Best,

 

Katz

Hey leann,

I'm sooooo sorry for your sleep, or lack thereof rather!

I think I remember you trying a rescue zip not to long ago? Is that right? Did it help you last time?

Hey leann,

I'm sooooo sorry for your sleep, or lack thereof rather!

I think I remember you trying a rescue zip not to long ago? Is that right? Did it help you last time?

As far as I remember she took only a crumb (equivalent to 1 mg diazepam) and it did help her. If only her GP would prescribe her 2 mg diazepam, she could probably take half a tablet daily and live normally.

she could probably take half a tablet daily and live normally.

 

Really? Normally? You don't know that. I would hate to suggest that anyone be a slave to benzos for a lifetime. I think this is a pretty irresponsible comment.

 

 

Katz

 

 

Hey leann,

I'm sooooo sorry for your sleep, or lack thereof rather!

I think I remember you trying a rescue zip not to long ago? Is that right? Did it help you last time?

As far as I remember she took only a crumb (equivalent to 1 mg diazepam) and it did help her. If only her GP would prescribe her 2 mg diazepam, she could probably take half a tablet daily and live normally.

 

Maybe for awhile, and then what? Tolerance will hit and then taper again?  This is why benzodiazepines are not considered effective long term medication. 2-4 weeks and even that can be too long for some.

Really? Normally? You don't know that. I would hate to suggest that anyone be a slave to benzos for a lifetime. I think this is a pretty irresponsible comment.

She didn't have problem with the drug and was cold-turkeyed against her will. Don't fix what aint't broken I'll say. And besides, waiting 5-7 years in hell to get better is no life, especially when you're older. I know I made a mistake of wanting off the damn drug too fast, and it has cost me dearly.

 

 

Maybe for awhile, and then what? Tolerance will hit and then taper again?  This is why benzodiazepines are not considered effective long term medication. 2-4 weeks and even that can be too long for some.

She never developed tolerance to, or had any problems with zopiclone and was cold-turkeyed against her will.

GP refused give me any diazapam or sleeping meds so reinstating not option anyway, damage is done with being made go ct too late to try and repair it my brain too damaged, had few zop left. Took half zopiclone couple of nights ago just think sometimes need bit respite from insomnia. I've been off zop about 22 months and only taken a dose about 3 times when went through really bad sleep spell. Did feel calmer last night even though still woke early.  Think likely to take another 6 months to really improve as mental symptoms seem last lot longer. Sometimes think be easier to accept your brain won't totally repair, don't think reinstating meds even if I could would repair the damage.

Really? Normally? You don't know that. I would hate to suggest that anyone be a slave to benzos for a lifetime. I think this is a pretty irresponsible comment.

She didn't have problem with the drug and was cold-turkeyed against her will. Don't fix what aint't broken I'll say. And besides, waiting 5-7 years in hell to get better is no life, especially when you're older. I know I made a mistake of wanting off the damn drug too fast, and it has cost me dearly.

 

 

Maybe for awhile, and then what? Tolerance will hit and then taper again?  This is why benzodiazepines are not considered effective long term medication. 2-4 weeks and even that can be too long for some.

She never developed tolerance to, or had any problems with zopiclone and was cold-turkeyed against her will.

 

Respectfully, as I’m not looking for an argument, I’d consider the severe withdrawal symptoms from the cold-turkeys as evidence she was quite dependent.  Tolerance is almost always simply a matter of time.

leann, I don't think this is true. Why would you think that? Just because you're having a hard time? Plenty of us had excruciatingly hard times.

 

Sometimes think be easier to accept your brain won't totally repair,

 

I think I'm pretty close to totally "repaired". I CTd my Ambien back in 2011 . . . and xanax at the same time. I had taken them for 11 years, as well as various ADs. I had awful, miserable w/ds but they ended. Unfortunately, I went back on both drugs about 5 years later, developed tolerance pretty quickly, and had to slow taper (3 miserable years) off them. My w/ds from that batch of benzos was so awful I don't even want to remember it. BUT . . . my brain still "repaired". It's taken awhile, but I'm done with benzos and am functioning very darned well. NEVER would I take another benzo. I found other things to help me sleep. Zop isn't the only game in town, leann. And don't short-change yourself. Your brain can "repair" itself. But I think you need to help it along by saying no to your zop. As long as you take one now and then, you won't look for anything else to help you.

 

Anyhow, that's all I have to say on the subject.

 

Best to you,

 

Katz

Only had a zopiclone about 3 times in  22 months hardly think that is going to stop things improving. Just find it lacking in empathy saying, plenty of us had hard times and I need to help things along. I have tried, therapy, CBT, exposure therapy, meditation, breathing exercises, distractions, not sure what else I can do to "help things along". I was made to cold turkey I wasn't given choice to taper, it has greatly increased the withdrawal symptom.s

Just find it lacking in empathy saying, plenty of us had hard times and I need to help things along.

 

Lacking in empathy am I? How freaking insulting. How many times have I answered your posts? How many time have I responded to you? How many times have I been "on your side"? Just because I urge you to do something to help yourself I am not empathetic? C'mon leann.

 

But you know . . . you're right. You've tried everything. Absolutely everything.  That seems to be what you want to be told. So . . . you've tried everything. End of discussion. As Henry Ford said: "Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't . . . you're right".

 

No more posts from me. I just wanted to register with you how insulting I found your accusation that I lack empathy. 

 

Katz

I haven't got the energy for a public argument, I also find it bit insulting to be told I won't try find another solution to sleep problems if I take very occasional zop, when for years I tried everything to try help me before ever resorting to zopiclone,  I apologise if I upset you, sometimes get worried about writing anything on this forum for fear of getting negative responses, anyway

I'm signing off from this thread, sorry once again. In a wave at moment maybe came on bit strong.

Disclaimer: Not medical advice!!

 

Three things have helped my sleep during and after benzo withdrawal- sodium valproate, KBr and adjusting my cirdadian rhythm (light therapy and melatonin). They help with different situations.

 

Sodium valproate supresses sleep-onset myoclonus and causes a very mild sleepiness. Its short acting and partially cross tolerant with benzos as its believed to increase your GABA level (not affecting the receptors unlike a real benzo). I found if Im sleepy but couldnt sleep due to myoclonic jerks, up to 1500mg sodium valproate would allow me to sleep (usually just 250-500mg is sufficient. With newly developed jerks, i would take 250-500mg every 30 min until jerks stop. Then the next day i take 250mg less than the previous day, etc) If im simply not sleepy with hyperactive brain, however, valproate isnt effective.

 

KBr was the first generation of sedative anticonvulsants before phenybarbitol and benzo. Its partially cross tolerant with benzos as Br ion passes through Cl channels (which the GABA receptor is one) more efficiently than actual Cl. Half life is 6-24 DAYs (average 12) so its a bit tricky to dose correctly. Not good as a rescue dose probably because you'd likely develop tolerance before a dose wears off. Its good for tapering though due to long half life. It does produce sleepiness and suppress sleep onset myoclonus for me. Im completely off KBr now but KBr substitution was what saved me when i hit a 'wall' of total insomnia during my initial benzo taper.

 

Lastly its circadian rhythm. Sometimes insomnia isnt insomnia its trying to sleep out of sync with your natural sleep cycle. Even normal people have a 2h window right before natural sleep time where their brain is super active and completely unable to sleep. Waking early after only a short sleep could also be a result of sleeping outside of your body's natural sleep window. What i do since coming off KBr, when im simply not sleepy and unable to sleep (despite having not slept in 19, 24 or however many hours and with a pounding headache), is to sit in a dark location and just read a book, watch movies or play mobile games until i feel the slightest bit sleepy. I write down this time as my natural sleep onset time. Go to sleep (may need a sodium valproate to supress myoclonus sometimes). Then the following days i try to pull my sleep onset forward or push it back to better align it with the day night cycle. Both light therapy and melatonin can be used for this purpose,. You can research melatonin and light therapy 'phase response curves' online for the best times to take the treatments for your intended purpose. The best times are not intuitive. If i remember right, the optimal treatment time to pull sleep onset forward is light therapy 9-12h before your natural sleep onset, and melatonin 6h before sleep onset (Not your indended bed time). YMMV. The thing with melatonin is less is more. 0.5mg for me is quite effective. Too high a dose though it may suppress/destroy your melatonin receptors and you'll have a whole other problem to deal with

Eric,

Thanks for the very interesting information. I am just wondering about the low dose of melatonin. Not sure if there is an issue regarding the ingested hormone's ability to cross the blood/brain barrier, requiring it to be taken at a higher dose.

Melatonin crosses BBB readily if i remember right. Its precursor serotonin does not. GABA does not.

I would avoid any zopiclone for sleep.  It is so tempting, because no one wants to stay awake.  But .. addictive. 

 

Sleep hygiene works.  4,7,8 breathing works.  Acceptance works.  This is from a hard core insomniac who now sleeps 7 - 9 hours a night.  And if I don't, I'll survive. 

 

Also, look into amino acids for rest.   

Already do the breathing tried everything over the years zopiclone was only thing that helped but agree it's not good idea to go back on it. Think part of it is how we're having to live at moment here no social contact can't do anything, so you never get mentally or physically tired. Just have wait it out hope it improves.

Yes, wait it out and it will improve...certainly not as quickly as you'd like it to, but slowly things improve.  However, it could easily be one step forward 2 steps back until it evens out. 

 

Time is the healer.  Acceptance, distraction and being as healthy as possible go a long way toward getting through your healing and recovery process.