bad information on Reddit

People with CT and Rapid Withdrawal experience may want to register with the "benzo recovery" group on Reddit.  You would not believe the foolishness and misinformation shared in that group!  It almost seems a macho thing to brag about benzo abuse, CTs and quick tapers.  I sometimes encourage checking out BenzoBuddies and the Ashton Manual, but if more BB's posted there it could save people from a world of hurt!

 

clearbluesky

 

I'm sorry to hear there is misinformation on Reddit and it does no good for the general benzo damaged community to glorify drug abuse, too many don't understand that most benzo users, at least those here have never abused the drug and aren't addicts.  That kind of misinformation gives the whole community a bad name.

I joined Reddit just because I wanted information on benzo withdrawal.  I was appalled when I saw all the pictures people posted of their "stash" they had and how much they took over the weekends, etc!  I tried to warn those ignorant people, and was ostracized and told that they loved their life on mega doses of benzos and I was just someone who was exaggerating about how bad a legitimate withdrawal can be. I am no longer a member of Reddit. No wonder the majority don't believe us!

Don't stress yourself out more by reading all those crazy stories on Reddit.

 

Just focus on you and your journey!

 

 

I thought the " benzorecovery" group on Reddit might offer valuable information, like BenzoBuddies, but have been disappointed, sometimes shocked.  There are people in genuine need of help who could be picking up irresponsible ideas and influences on Reddit, which is why I have sometimes posted to revommend BenzoBuddies and the Ashton Method, and thought others here might do the same.

I tried to refer them to the Ashton Manual and BB and other FB groups for benzo withdrawal support also.  But I was bashed down by all the abusers out there.  When they cannot get their benzos off the streets and from the web anymore, they will have a rude awakening!

That's true, there's a whole world of misinformation on Reddit. But you have to understand, most of those guys and girls are really young. Most of them are in their early twenties. I was that way when I was younger as well, and I've been to a lot of hospitals and detoxes as well as quite a few jails, and I can honestly say it doesn't matter what you tell people like that, they're going to do what they want regardless.

 

Best you can do is inform them how long the withdrawal will be if they take more, but it will probably go in one ear and out the other just like it did to me when I was young. That's why I've been suffering for 16 and 1/2 months oh, because I didn't listen to anybody and took them for 20 years regardless of the consequences they warned me about.

 

But you shouldn't put people down for being drug addicts and substance abusers, because that's exactly what we are. Depending on who you ask, of course. And others, they prefer to be called physically dependent. The way I see it, whether you had a prescription or you bought it from somebody off the street, you're still taking a pill. And whether you have a condition or not, your body doesn't care.

Well it wasn't intended to piss you off, it's just what my doctor has told me, as well as about a dozen other doctors. You have to understand, a prescription has nothing to do with whether or not you're abusing something or if you're addicted or not.

 

For example, let's say you were taking five Valium everyday, and you never had a prescription. People would say that you're abusing pills and that you're addicted to Valium.

 

But in the same example, all of a sudden because you have a prescription you're not abusing anyting and you're not addicted either? What does a prescription have to do with it?

 

Sometimes people like to say you're abusing something if you take more than your prescribed. So you could also look at this for an example; let's say you're only prescribed 3 Valium per day and you take them as prescribed. You would think that you're not abusing anyting.

 

And in this same example, maybe your best friend only has a prescription for one Valium per day but they take the exact same amount, they take three. Does this mean that your friend is abusing them just because they only have a prescription for one of them per day?

 

I guess it depends on who you ask. Either way they're taking the same thing so what's the difference? It doesn't matter if it's prescribed or not, it's the same pill. So if one person is a drug addict, then everybody is. Either that or nobody is. It's your call, it's all irrelevant language.

 

What I prefer is for nobody to be judged for anything that they take and whether it was prescribed or not, to get the exact same treatment.

 

What's even worse for the benzo community, is for people to deny addiction and try to be a higher standard of a person compared to all the other drugs. You don't see people that were prescribed opiates saying that they never got addicted. They usually admit it. And then they go get Suboxone or methadone to get rid of the withdrawal.

 

I have a really high assumption that if there was a drug that would get rid of benzo withdrawal, then lots of people who have been addicted to benzodiazepines would go get it for some relief. But if you still claim that you're not addicted, I guess you wouldn't need it.

 

I've also been told by many doctors and therapists that physical addiction is the same thing as regular addiction, so in the benzo Community there's really no difference. Sure, there might be a difference between psychological and physical dependence obviously, but that's not what doctors label people on. They determine whether or not you are addicted physically most of the time.

The difference is that benzos, whether abused or used medically, don't really create addiction. There are no benzo cravings the way there are for amphetamines, cocaine, or opiates. Those substances create both phisical dependence and mental addiction, benzos (and other psychiatric drugs, like anticonvulsants, antidepressants, antipsychotics) only physical dependence. To make the matters worse, there's no withdrawal support for psychiatric drugs, the way there is for e.g. opiates, despite the fact that opiate withdrawal is much less dangerous and infinitely shorter. In fact, most physicians won't even recognize the fact that psychiatric drugs are habit forming. So it's more than being just about benzos, the only difference between the benzos and the rest of psych drugs is that benzos are controlled substance. The fact is, there are ways to get people safely off the street drugs, and no ways to get people safely off of psychiatric drugs.

We're not here to judge why people took benzos.  We're here to support people who are trying to eliminate benzos from their lives.  In the midst of withdrawal, the reason a person started taking these drugs doesn't really matter very much.

 

As for the Reddit users - about the only thing that changes that indestructible '19-forever' mindset is entry into the 30's.

Like Tweed8, I've had a longstanding aversion to all pharmaceuticals.  Despite having panic disorder for years, I was so distrustful of drugs, my use of Klonopin was only occasional and very low dose, only 1/4 of a .5 mg pill.  I only began taking it regularly this spring, and less than half the prescribed dose.  I'm only continuing this stuff now because I have to taper.  It's not because I crave the stuff or ever took it for kicks.  It's like I fell in a trap.  So, yes, I resent the term "addict."

 

Still I empathize with anyone in pain, for whatever reason they started taking a benzo, they are suffering now as we all are or have.  Reddit users do seem quite young, and some seem foolish about CT's and rapid tapering.  Others could be victims of their misinformation and bad influence.  So I thought it might be a nice deed if some with the wisdom of experience dropped by Reddit now and then to suggest BenzoBuddies and the Ashton Method.  Who knows, it could actually save a life or two.

I think it depends on the benzo. From my understanding, the fast acting ones are addictive because they release the euphoric feeling all at once. You can certainly become addicted; how do you think I ended up on 100 mg of ambien? The cravings took about three weeks to fully kick and honestly, if I think about it enough and remember the feeling of being on ambien, I begin to go into a panic knowing I can never touch them again. So it is possible to be addicted and not just depended.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree with a lot of it. Benzos don't get you so-called high like opiates. Instead what they do is make you crave feeling calm and not having anxiety. So you're not after a high, you're after being numb.

 

And alcohol and barbiturates do the exact same thing, they make you calm. That's why they made phenobarbital and the other barbiturates controlled and rarely prescribed them for things other than neurological conditions anymore these days.

 

But trust me, I know where you're coming from. It's just that doctors don't see that way. The way they see it, you take a benzo and attacks immediately unlike antidepressants and other psychiatric medications. It's instant gratification. That's why it's controlled. Also because it has horrible withdrawal, that's a big reason it's controlled.

 

I was too blind to see any of this and understand it until being off of the drug for about a year-and-a-half. Now I see where they're coming from because people will do almost anything to continue getting their prescription, and if they don't have it they are suffering and extremely sick for years and it wastes a lot of taxpayers money at the hospital.

 

And like you said, it's extremely dangerous. Just like alcohol and barbiturates, you can die. Most people don't overdose, but that happens as well especially when combined with opiates and alcohol. Or any other CNS depressant.

 

I used to say they shouldn't even be controlled, but now I think it's one of the meds that need to be taken off the market. You have to look at it from a sober person's perspective, somebody that doesn't take pills. They are horrible for everybody, that's why they're controlled.

 

But I think the biggest point that has been argued between us is whether or not it's a addiction. If you look at it from a doctor's point of view, it is. To them it's definitely addiction.

 

Also if you ask anybody in recovery whether or not it's an addiction they would say yes. They all say that benzodiazepines are highly addictive and really bad drugs to be on. So it's not just me saying this, it's all types of people saying it and that's why they're controlled.

But trust me, I know where you're coming from. It's just that doctors don't see that way. The way they see it, you take a benzo and attacks immediately unlike antidepressants and other psychiatric medications. It's instant gratification. That's why it's controlled. Also because it has horrible withdrawal, that's a big reason it's controlled.

There are antidepressants that work instantly. Antipsychotics work instantly too. And anticonvulsants like gabapentoids are probably better for getting "high" than benzos. And yet only benzos are stigmatized. As for withdrawal just see SurvivingAntidepressants.org.

 

I think it depends on the benzo. From my understanding, the fast acting ones are addictive because they release the euphoric feeling all at once. You can certainly become addicted; how do you think I ended up on 100 mg of ambien? The cravings took about three weeks to fully kick and honestly, if I think about it enough and remember the feeling of being on ambien, I begin to go into a panic knowing I can never touch them again. So it is possible to be addicted and not just depended.

I don't know, I was immune to short-acting benzos. Z-drugs did literally nothing to me. For that matter neither did clonazepam. It must be matabolism thing.

I would caution against blurring the lines between "addiction" and "dependence."  Far too many benzo users have been cast into detox centers that apply the same withdrawal methods as alcohol and drug addiction, with devastating and lasting impacts.  I think it's in our self-interest to promote awareness of distinctions.  No doctor of mine would say I'm a benzo "addict."  They know better, and I'm sure the number of other doctors who understand such distinctions are many and growing. 

I don't think either of you guys know what you're talkin about, it doesn't matter if you're a drug addict or not, you're still going to get taken off of your meds quickly because hospitals are for acute stays. I've been taken off of my meds cold turkey multiple times by medical professionals. And I had a prescription and I wasn't labeled an addict.

 

Simply put, doctors have a job to do at hospital and they have to do it really quickly because of insurance. Because of that, people get pulled off of their meds really quickly. Doesn't matter if they're a drug addict or not and if they have insurance or not.

 

And there's no antidepressants and mood stabilizers or antipsychotics that start having the desired medical effect right away like benzos. Sure, you can take amitriptyline or Remeron or Seroquel but it's not going to have the effect the doctors want until a week or two. That's why they prescribe benzos short-term, that's how they're supposed to be at least.

 

And you keep saying there's no more drugs like benzos, but there are. Barbiturates are almost exactly the same, just a little bit more deadly and work on a different Gabba area and it's about the duration rather than the frequency on the Gabba. And alcohol works very similarly as well. That's why all three are controlled.

 

I don't know why everybody on the benzo buddies insist on saying they are not drug addicts and that they were only physically dependent, it's not like it helps you out or anything. Talk to anybody that's old school and they will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. Talk to any recovered drug addict as well, they will tell you it doesn't matter if you had your benzos prescribed or not, it's addiction.

 

There's a lot of ignorance on this website sometimes. Luckily I'm almost 17 months out and getting a lot closer to healed, so I can care less about what somebody has to say about a medical term.

And there's no antidepressants and mood stabilizers or antipsychotics that start having the desired medical effect right away like benzos. Sure, you can take amitriptyline or Remeron or Seroquel but it's not going to have the effect the doctors want until a week or two. That's why they prescribe benzos short-term, that's how they're supposed to be at least.

But it does work right away. Try getting risperidone shot in hospital and see if it takes two weeks to work. Or try taking pregabalin pill, and see if it takes a week to feel it. And some antidepressants, such as tianeptine are basically uncontrolled opiates.

 

I don't know why everybody on the benzo buddies insist on saying they are not drug addicts and that they were only physically dependent, it's not like it helps you out or anything. Talk to anybody that's old school and they will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. Talk to any recovered drug addict as well, they will tell you it doesn't matter if you had your benzos prescribed or not, it's addiction.

It matters, because physicians are medically illiterate. An addiction specialist chief psychiatrist tried to convince me that I don't have physical withdrawal symptoms from benzos, that it can't be because I was on a low dose, and tried to convince me that I was psychologically addicted and that benzos were doing nothing for me. And then he attempted to push more drugs on me, as if I were mentally ill, and not suffering withdrawal symptoms. If I wanted to take drugs I wouldn't have cold-turkeyed benzos (which was stupid, but happened under unfortunate set of circumstances).

Yeah I guess you have a point, if you're going through withdrawal and they don't understand that, they will try to put you on more drugs, that's happened to me a bunch of times. But it still doesn't really matter if you're addicted or not. All they're trying to do is treat your symptoms and they don't know where they're coming from.

 

I would State my opinion on Psychiatry but it's not allowed on here. So with that being said, doctors could definitely use some more training on benzo withdrawal and why people get it. Not everything is because of an underlining mental health condition like they try to make it seem sometimes.

I've spent some time trying to help people in that community. I try not to judge too harshly. Benzos make people overconfident - "bartards" is the term that often gets used. I remember a time when I started to become aware that I was dependent and that it was probably going to be a problem. The realisation did not hit me all at once overnight. Nobody goes from everything seeming to be fine to realising overnight that they need to battle for their life. Not everybody even gets there; these people are candidates for polydrugging since nobody else is likely to identify the problem either.

 

I like to think that I have helped a small number of people in a big way, by helping people to identify the nature of their problem. For example, you might get some naive benzo user describing benzo tolerance and a pattern of escalating doses. It's so easy for somebody with my experience and knowledge to help such a user see what is happening and point out how to not make the problem worse and where they might be able to get help when they are ready. If you're knowledgeable about benzos and non-judgemental towards people with addiction/dependency issues, plenty of people can use that help and they will gravitate towards you if you're offering it. It can seem like you're swimming against the tide but it's just a bunch of insecure people propping up each other's egos. Be truthful and sensitive at the same time and you will cut through that.

Agreed 100%, don't judge people. That's when people stop trying to get help and start making excuses and lying if you judge them. Everybody makes mistakes, nobody is inferior.

I agree JustinTime and Diaz. I do believe that people can be solely dependent on benzos without the addiction and I understand from reading that some people are affected by the drugs differently or predisposed to addiction. I have had others tell me that they do not feel the euphoric feeling I get from Ambien. I know I was addicted. I was honest about it and that is what helped me stop it CT. I was very embarrassed that I was addicted, and now I am not. I did something kind of strong and amazing--I stopped my addiction. But, I do notice that buddies on this site are so vocal about not being called an addict, and I can understand that, but the proclamation can also sound very judgmental. I hope to learn something from this experience and that is empathy. We need to stop believing that we are better than someone else because we don't have a particular struggle. I do believe that it matters if someone is addicted or not because it handles how one comes off these drugs. Also, with getting rid of the stigma of addiction, doctors and detox centers would stop ignoring the dangers of pulling patients off CT or too quickly and just assuming that after the acute phrase, the person should be normal again.

I think there are semantic distinctions.  I am addicted to cigarettes.  I crave them.  I can't seem to quit.  Frankly I love them.  This is not the case with Klonopin.  Klonopin never made me high or euphoric. I'd CT today if I didn't have to taper for withdrawal reasons.  I'd say I'm "addicted" to cigarettes, but "dependent" on Klonopin.

I used to be addicted to sugar and coffee. I craved them. I was never addicted to benzos. Even though I'm currently experiencing cold-turkey withdrawal, I still don't feel the craving for benzos.

That's the problem is that people keep comparing addiction to Cravings. You don't have to have cravings to be addicted to something. For example, with benzos, you don't crave a so-called euphoria, you crave the anxiety relief. And when you don't get the anxiety relief, all you think about is medication.

 

Like me for example, I have been through this a million times, well more like 10 roughly. Each time that I quit benzos, it was because I hated them and wanted to get off of them for good. So you would think if I wanted to quit them because I didn't like them, I wasn't addicted. But that's not the way an addiction works.

 

The reality of an addiction is that when you don't have your drug, whether it's prescribed or a street drug or a drink from the liquor store or fancy wine that you made from your Grapevine in your Villa in the Hills, it doesn't matter what it is, if you quit taking it and you have horrible symptoms because of Tolerance, that's an addiction. The reason that's an addiction is because you have become dependent on it and without it you can't function. That's why they call it an addiction.

 

But the reason this is so confusing to everybody is because I doctor prescribed it and told them to take it because that's the instructions and it's to treat a condition. And it's FDA approved and it's completely legal and it doesn't give you Euphoria or a high. So everybody just assumes they're not addicted. But that's false.

 

Say for example that alcohol was legal and the doctor started prescribing a shot every two hours for anxiety or for Tremor or procedures. It would be good medication right? Wrong. It would be okay until you reach a tolerance and then try to quit taking it and end up with more problems. That's why they call it alcoholism. So would a prescription make it any different? Not at all. It just makes it acceptable and legal.

 

Or think about marijuana, that's a good one to use as an example. It's not illegal if you go to a dispensary, but only some people have a medical card and others don't. Some just go to the recreational side instead of the medical side. So we all know you can be addicted to marijuana, in my opinion that's a good thing. So if you have a medical card, does that mean you're not addicted? No, it just means it's your medicine. Same thing with benzos.

 

So whenever you sit there and compare benzodiazepines to street drugs it doesn't make much sense because street drugs are used to get high, whereas usually benzos are used to relief anxiety or to get relief from a Comedown from illegal drugs like alcohol or cocaine. Problem is, they have the worst withdrawal out of all of them, of course that's debatable with some people.

 

But you can't just say because you had a prescription and took them the way you were supposed to that it's not addiction, because the prescription has nothing to do with it. And when you sit there and act like you've never been a drug addict and you never would be oh, that's putting other people down because you're acting better than them.

 

Whereas if people would just be honest and say yes I got addicted to them after a couple days and it was really hard to quit, it would make a whole lot more sense and people wouldn't look at you funny for trying to make things up. It would be more accepted if everybody was completely honest about it.

 

And I don't know why people keep throwing in the argument of it makes a difference on how you get taken off of it and the amount of time you get to taper. That has nothing to do with it. Hospitals are acute stays regardless. And you can still taper if you are a drug addict, in fact you can stay on drugs endlessly if you want like Suboxone or methadone.

 

So the whole I'm high and mighty and I'm not a drug addict and I'm better than everybody else argument doesn't work and nobody believes it, and for some reason I've only heard it on benzo buddies and nowhere else. I've heard it on medicating normal as well when that psychiatrist was sitting there talking about the difference of addiction and physical dependence. But she's just giving things wordplay.

 

The fact of the matter is anybody that got withdrawal from benzos was addicted whether they call it that or not, that's literally the definition. Once you become dependent on something, whether it's physically or mentally or overall, that means you are addicted. Just like we are addicted to water and food. We're also all addicted to sleep.

 

So you can sit there and try to use word play like that psychiatrist on medicating normal all you want, but it doesn't mean anything to normal people. Normal people will agree that you got dependent whether you liked it or not.

That's the problem is that people keep comparing addiction to Cravings. You don't have to have cravings to be addicted to something.

But you do, that's literally the definition of addiction. The confusion comes from the fact that street drugs that cause addiction also cause physical dependence. However, most psychiatric drugs don't cause addiction, but only physical dependence. The only psychiatric drugs that do cause addiction are ADHD medications, some antidepressants, and in a very, very few people benzos.

 

 

 

For example, with benzos, you don't crave a so-called euphoria, you crave the anxiety relief. And when you don't get the anxiety relief, all you think about is medication.

Wishing to avoid withdrawal effects isn't addiction, addiction requires dose escalation beyond what is required to stave off the withdrawal effects. To better illustrate what is addiction I will give you the example of things that don't cause physical dependency, but do cause addiction and lead to dose escalation -- food, especially sweets, video games, and porn. People addicted to these things crave more and more and more, better, more tasty, more variety, etc.

 

 

 

So you see, addiction has absolutely nothing to do with having a prescription or not. In many countries benzos are OTC. When I was a child, in my country, some opioids like tramadol, codeine, dextromethorphan, etc. were OTC medications.