Valium taper - What am I doing wrong?

Hello all, since a few months I've been tapering from 15mg Valium, but am in trouble since hitting 11mg. I'm having serious WD-effects every day, never stabilized again and am barely functional. I have reduced my taper-speed but to no avail. Are the WD-effects lag time from earlier cuts? Should I hold longer and make smaller cuts? I seem to get worse and worse with every cut.

 

One thing I found out is that the 75mg Luvox I am taking is interfering with the breakdown of Valium. They both use the same liver-enzyme. This results in a longer half-time of Valium and a higher stacking-effect. Could that have something to do with it?

 

My major WD-effects are depression, tensions all over my body, skin-burning, anxiety, head pressure, jaw-pain and tinnitus. My taper history is in my signature below.

 

I am even thinking of updosing although I don't want to, and am holding my dose for now. I don't want to give up my taper.

 

I am thankful of any advice I can get, because I can't get my head around it. I so want to get rid of this drug but it is extremely difficult. Strength to all on this board, greetings Pecoro.

Hi Pecoro

 

It seems the combination of meds is causing the valium to last longer and break down slower in your system.  Valium already has a long half life.  So your withdrawal symptoms are likely to come on later.  Yes, this could be symptoms from the previous cuts.  How long have you been holding?  It can take a few weeks or even longer for symptoms to settle.  They do not always go away between cuts.  You may have to taper while still having some symptoms.  Yes, smaller cuts and longer holds are suggested if you are having a hard time. 

 

You do not have to give up your taper.  Tapering from benzos is a challenge and takes patience and time.  Up dosing does not always work.  It's a personal choice, but then you eventually have to get back down.  I am not a fan of up dosing for these reasons. 

 

Can you ride out this wave of symptoms longer?  Let them settle.  I know it's not easy.    You can be free of benzos. 

Hi Healing64,

 

Thanks for your reply! I will post an overview of my taper for a better insight in my holds below:

 

 

Dosage (mg Valium)    Days.

 

15.                                    Start

14.                                    7

13.                                    7

12.                                    7

11.                                    15

12.                                    21 (updose)

11.5.                                  7

11.                                    7

10.5.                                  21

10.                                    14

9.5.                                    24

9.                                      18 to this date and

                                          holding

 

I've extended the time between cuts and I've been trying to do a symptom-based taper for as good as possible in my situation. Maybe the holds were too short for the lagtime?

 

I am certainly trying to ride out this wave.

 

Thanks and greetings, Pecoro.

 

I think your holds were quite short in the beginning.  The reductions could now be catching up.  I think holding longer is a wise plan. 

Hey 

 

personally looking at your reduction you dropped to quick as well. You were dropping every week when maybe you needed to hold for longer to rid out any WD's (withdrawals), as these can take a while to so one especially with Valium/diazepam as this is a long lasting benzo.

 

I did the same when I first tapered and I went down to quick and it brought on big WD's. I went from 20mg to around 2mg in a few months and had to then go back up to 10mg to try and stabilise which took a while, can't remember how long but over 6 months. But thats just me, I only had 10mg pills and smashed down to quick as I had no help and didn't know what I was doing.

 

I would hold if I was you and try to stabilise your WD's until they get better, which they will do mate it just takes time unfortunately.

 

Its not a rush and I would listen to your body and mind and stop looking to taper down every week. I know there is the Aston method which says every 2 weeks etc reduce by this much which works for some people but not everyone. So hold for a while and see how you feel if you want to up your dose again its up to you, don't beat yourself up its trail and error mate.  Most of us have had to hold or maybe up the dose to try and stay on path.

 

In the future when you taper in my option hold for longer and see how you feel before you drop again, it may take longer but you will have a smoother drop than trying to smash away at it, that won't help yes you may get down quicker but WD's will be harder and strong and won't pass any quicker unfortunately

 

Benzo tapering is really difficult mate, you have done great to get to half way 

 

You got this 

Quote from Healing 64

Up dosing does not always work.  It's a personal choice, but then you eventually have to get back down.  I am not a fan of up dosing for these reasons.Up dosing does not always work.  It's a personal choice, but then you eventually have to get back down.  I am not a fan of up dosing for these reasons.

 

I second this. Even Dr Ashton mentions in her manual that, as tempting as it may be, updosing is best avoided. You actually end up prolonging the taper process. You may need to hold longer, or reduce by smaller cuts. Instead of .5, try .25. If cutting the pills that small is difficult, Valium does come in a liquid form, and there are people here who can help you with how to dilute it. At this point, you should hold until you feel stable and comfortable with making the next cut. This may take time for your body to adjust.

I recommend holding as long as you need to because those cuts are indeed cumulative. I usually hold for a month. I also don't recommend updosing if you can help it. I find that it doesn't work.

Hi all! Thank you so much for your anwers, its good to know that I am not alone in this. Yes I have been cutting when having symptoms, certainly after 11mg. Maybe I pay for that now. But I so want to get rid of this drug that I felt I had no choice. I was put on Ativan by a p-doc while raising my AD Luvox, which took longer than anticipated. So I got hooked on Ativan. I now try to come off using Valium. I have always been very careful with benzo's, knowing how addictive they are. I have a fear of them. But now I'm hooked and that is very difficult for me to accept. I feel like I have to get them out of my system asap. That's why I have such a difficulty with holding. I have to be careful not to develop extra anxiety just for being on benzo's. It seems I have no choice but to hold and accept and take the hardship for as long as it takes. Thanks again and strength to everyone in this fight. Greetings from The Netherlands, Pecoro. 

You did go fast and those reductions are catching up with you. To echo what others have said, going back to a higher dose is a terrible idea unless you're planning to put your taper on hold for a while, even then it's not great. It's highly unlikely you'll get symptom relief unless you go to a much higher dose, which should be unacceptable to anybody trying to get off these things.

 

Don't feel bad about holding for a while. You will eventually get some respite and it'll be because your brain adapted to less of the medication rather than the other way around. When we stabilise between dose reductions, we don't truly recover. That takes much longer. I found I could reduce my dose by 0.5mg every two weeks for about 3-4 times in a row before I needed a longer break.

 

Mindset is important too. I don't think it's fair to say you have done anything wrong. This is a learning process and it's almost guaranteed that you'll have a similar mishap in the future too (sorry). It's only a mistake if you ignore the signal to give yourself a rest. You may find some relief in taking that pressure away temporarily. Stress hurts us much more than it would usually and in ways we're not always aware of.

 

Please do not rush. I totally understand the feeling of urgency but I can tell you from experience that pushing the accelerator when everything is telling you to hit the brakes is a recipe for disaster. "It seems I have no choice but to hold and accept and take the hardship for as long as it takes." - this is spot on, return to that thought in times of acute hardship. It's very much possible to make this 10 times worse by making hasty and desperate decisions. You can do this, just be smart about it and get support here whenever you need it.

I have started a daily microtaper by dry cutting .003 from my current dose.  That is about 6 % per month.  You may consider moving over to a microtaper (either dry or water).  I have a scale, spreadsheet, nail file to shave pills.  It doesn't take away the sx but I have found it is less of a shock than the cut and hold method.  I'm currently almost to 15 mg.  When I get to 10, I may consider dropping my percentage rate to 4 %.  My goal is to stay functional and listen to my body. 

 

I would cut at lower percentage rates from your current dose: 

 

What are your current symptoms that have made you 'hit a wall'. 

@[Di...] They are very important to me as no one in my surrounding seems to understand the dynamics of benzo-withdrawal, including my p-doc who suggested using benzo's for life but is cooperating with my taper so far in his own way.

 

@TallGolfer I have considered doing micro tapering, and I do have a scale, but am hesitating to start with it. I think I have more control over my taper using the simple cut and hold. And I am afraid of starting a method I don't know. But sooner or later I think I have no choice but to use it, as cutting smaller than 0.5mg is difficult.

 

About the wall, that hit me hard when I reached 11mg, with severe headaches and feeling sick for weeks. I have been struggling ever since trying to find a way to keep moving forward, using holds and slowing my taper down.

 

Thanks and greetings, Pecoro.

 

Quite from diaz-e-BAM

 

Please do not rush. I totally understand the feeling of urgency but I can tell you from experience that pushing the accelerator when everything is telling you to hit the brakes is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

As someone who made this same mistake, I have to agree with this. I suffered terribly as a result of tapering too quickly. I didn't know then what I know now, thanks to finding BenziBuddies. My body was giving me signals, but I was more irritated/annoyed then actually suffering, so I cut sooner than I should have. Once I got to the end, the horrible withdrawals hit me out of nowhere. Still waiting to stabilize after two weeks. It's getting better, past few days were pretty good. But today it all went south. My head just hurt all day. Ice packs help some.

 

We all want off this poison (as we see it), but we have to do it right. Listen to our bodies, and whether it's ready for the next cut.

Thanks for your advice BenzoLottie! Greetings and strength, Pecoro. 

I was switched from Xanax to k and then Valium. I told my Dr. I wanted to go slow and my side effects mainly are just very lethargic. I’m wondering how far you have to reduce to stop feeling fatigued all day. I am only cutting once a month but I had rather do that and have minimal withdrawals. Holding does help you to feel more stable.

Hey friend I agree with the others that going up is not a good idea

I think a possible solution is looking for ways to reduce the burden of the symptoms so that you can continue tapering

 

You mentioned that your symptoms are "depression, tensions all over my body, skin-burning, anxiety, head pressure, jaw-pain and tinnitus."

 

A few of these are treatable under normal circumstances, like there are stuff for depression, pain and anxiety in non benzo users, but stuff like head pressure and tinnitus are from withdrawal and can only be ridden out. I wonder if you can look for ways to lessen the symptoms that you can treat so that the ones you can't will be easier to ride out?

 

For depression and anxiety the right form of CBT helps tremendously. Whether that's with a therapist, a book or your own special blend of motivation... I feel depressed on w/d but I have learned ways to talk myself out of it so that I don't use xanax to cope with it. And with anxiety I can usually chalk it up to w/d and something to be endured but not to quit on.

 

I'm wondering if the tensions can be reduced with yoga, heavy exercise, or recently I've learned about a technique called trauma release exercise that's supposed to trigger your body's relaxation response.

 

For jaw pain I'm wondering if you have tried warm compresses during the day and using a mouth guard at night?

The head pressure, I get that too, it's usually related to my calorie, fat, sugar, salt, or artificial sweetener intake. Have you checked your blood pressure when you get this? I get it sometimes when I'm dehydrated or my blood pressure is low, so I eat something salty.

It may also be your neck muscles holding tension and moving them around if you work long hours can help, or work lying down if you use a laptop.

The skin burning, could cold showers help? Do regular over the counter pain medicines treat it? There's a whole literature on pain management techniques, I'm sorry I don't have experience with managing pain because I don't have this symptom but I know there is treatment out there, such as visualization and meditation, or acupuncture and traditional chinese medicine.

 

Dealing with so many withdrawal symptoms can be overwhelming and make you want to go back, but I think it's possible to look for ways to treat each symptom one at a time and once they get better you can continue.

Hi Pupukupu,

 

Thanks for your reply and advice, I appreciate it! I am already having CBT from a therapist, but find it very difficult to apply when symptoms are strong.

 

Redbird Flies, I felt very fatigued at 15mg and it lessens when you go down. At 10mg it was better but it wasn't gone completely, especially after my morning-dose.

 

Thanks again and greetings, Pecoro.

Hello all, visited my p-doc yesterday and we discussed my severe WD-symptoms from tapering Valium. He concluded that its highly unlikely that I suffer WD-effects with the way I have been reducing (see signature below). He suggested that I am not well because I need Valium just to feel good and that it doesn't work as well anymore since I'm reducing. My symptoms could very well be from stress, not from withdrawal he said. I explained to him the reasons why I want to stop taking Valium, but he seemed not quite convinced. I am very confused and stressed-out by this and don't really know what to do. He is right that I was much more stable at 15mg, but I don't want to be on benzo's for the rest of my life. I know he means good as I am feeling worse while tapering, but now I feel I have no support tapering further. I will hold at 9mg for now as was my plan, but don't know what to do next. Having a really bad day with a lot of anxiety and nausea. Greetings and strength to all of you, Pecoro.

Your doctor apparently doesn't know what he is talking about. That is not uncommon. The advice he gives is not just wrong, it goes against standard prescribing guidelines which advise against long term use. They are not supposed to be used for more than just a few weeks.

 

Your tapering schedule seems quite sensible but some symptoms are expected. Your doctor is quite wrong in his assessment of your situation since it is a very simple cause and effect. You reduced the valium and got some symptoms. It's exactly as expected.

 

All of that said, if your doctor will prescribe enough valium, it is better than being in the position where they refuse to prescribe the right amount for a slow taper. Holding at 9mg is very sensible and you don't need to figure out what to do next, because with a little time your symptoms will start to reduce. When you're doing a little better, you won't be as confused about what to do. So try to just settle and not to worry about the next move in the coming days because you don't need to. Take the pressure away.

 

This forum is the best support that many people have in a world ignorant to benzos. It can be a confusing place at first when there's conflicting advice but you will start to get the hang of it. You'll get plenty of support here if you stick around. Hope you start to feel better soon, sure it won't be too long.

Hi Diaz-e-bam, thanks for your encouraging words, they mean a lot to me! I am holding for now which isn't easy as symptoms seem to increase after 3 weeks. I will try to take the pressure away as much as I can and wait for symptoms to reduce. Thanks again and strength to everyone on this board, Pecoro. 

No problem. I've been where you are now, even worse to be honest; I had psychotic symptoms.

 

Let me reassure you that you're doing exactly the right thing and that it's normal to feel your symptoms intensify in this way. Symptoms do go up and down when things are severe, even if you keep the same dose. We're so sensitive that the smallest thing that might happen in a day can make the difference. Also, you can perhaps think of it like going for a longish run every day for 3 weeks. That might be something you can handle for a few days in a row but with no recovery time, there'll be some deterioration in your condition. Your nervous system will catch up to the dose you're on in the coming weeks.

 

It took me 2 months to stabilise one time after severe symptoms, then I took an extra month to be safe. The first month was awful and the second month improved but still bad, then I started to feel better and by 3 months, I was feeling better than at any point in the previous couple of years. I don't think it will take as long for you as for me, just giving you a rough idea of what to expect. When it's the right time to go again, you'll know.

Thanks again Diaz-e-bam for taking the time! I can only hope my condition will improve with time as has happend to you. Thanks also for the explanation of how the nervous system is trying to catch-up with the cuts. Greetings, Pecoro. 

Hi. Have to agree that perhaps your cuts are too big and fast for you. I have been tapering for almost 3 years now. Been quite the roller coaster of every withdrawal symptom imaginable. However I read that cuts should be only 10 percent at the most. And I also found that for me 3 weeks in between cuts is best and sometime even longer. I don’t cut unless I feel my body can handle it. Keep in mind though that everyone is different. What works for one person may not work for you. And yes, it seems that the final stretch takes forever and you have to fight the urge to just be done with it already. But slow and steady wins the race. The important thing is to know you are making progress and one day it will be better. And all the success stories show its worth the journey. So hang in there and know you not alone. You can do this!

Thanks Loveyourselfalways! I am entering week 6 now (37 days) of my hold and have no relief of symptoms. I expected to have some windows by now but this is not happening. It looks more like the opposite is going on. I am getting worried and don't know what to do. I so want to stabilize a bit and move on with my taper, but this doesn't seem to happen. Should I have more patience? I am happy with any advice I can get. Thanks and strength to all of you, Pecoro.