Study Shows High Dose Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Helps Alleviate PAWS damage

I am reading a study that shows that Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) and its derivative benfotiamine in high doses can help normalize sensitized AMPA receptors that were exposed to stress. Apart from damage done to GABA receptors, benzos can also permanently sensitize the glutamergic AMPA receptors. This is a key cause of many benzo PAWS related sleep issues, especially excess REM sleep and sleep maintenance insomnia. AMPA and NDMA antagonists increase REM sleep and block the body's ability to go into deep sleep.

 

I am wondering what are people's thoughts about this? Apart from kindling caused by excess glutamate, WD causes a significant disruption of the HPA axis and a huge amount of stress which would further sensitize AMPA receptors. Has anyone had any bad reactions to vitamin B1?

 

"Thiamine and benfotiamine counteract ultrasound-induced aggression, normalize AMPA receptor expression and plasticity markers, and reduce oxidative stress in mice "

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30817932/

Does vitamin B1 bind to AMPA receptors? The thing is anything that mimicks glutamate is going to cause waves in some people. And downregulation would require long-term treatment. Here it says to avoid the following:

    Vitamin D

    Vitamin B

    Magnesium

    Kava Kava

    Chamomile

 

Of course, we know the list of things to avoid is much longer. However, as you know we are all different, and one person's bane is another's best friend. Some people swear in a cannabioid or a supplement, and when someone else tries it causes much suffering. In the end you don't know how it'll affect you unless you try.

 

Does vitamin B1 bind to AMPA receptors? The thing is anything that mimicks glutamate is going to cause waves in some people. And downregulation would require long-term treatment. Here it says to avoid the following:

    Vitamin D

    Vitamin B

    Magnesium

    Kava Kava

    Chamomile

 

Of course, we know the list of things to avoid is much longer. However, as you know we are all different, and one person's bane is another's best friend. Some people swear in a cannabioid or a supplement, and when someone else tries it causes much suffering. In the end you don't know how it'll affect you unless you try.

 

I've read people's experiences with vitamin B1 over the internet and didn't find it to cause any problems/waves. People get it injected during WD without any adverse reactions. Vitamin B6 seems to cause a lot more problems.

Interesting. Now I just searched b1 deficiency, and the symptoms are also known withdrawal sx. Don't think I'm deficient, but find that strange.

 

Quote

 

Clinical Picture of Deficiency in Adults

There are several distinct clinical pictures that can result from thiamine deficiency.  They include:

 

Muscle pain – typically in the calves due to rapid accumulation of lactic acid after slight physical activity

Congestive cardiac failure – shortness of breath, fluid retention and a rapid and sometimes bounding pulse

Peripheral neuropathy – loss of sensation and sometimes strength in the hands or lower limbs

Wernicke’s Encephalopathy – ataxia (unsteadiness), impaired consciousness and problems of eye movement

Korsakoff’s Psychosis – loss of memory for both new (anterograde) and past (retrograde) events together with confabulation, making up a version of events to cover for the loss of memory

Other features – hypothermia, hypotension (low blood pressure) and autonomic neuropathy

benzos can also permanently sensitize the glutamergic AMPA receptors.

 

what is the meaning of "permanently sensitize receptors" and where is the evidence for it (like links)?

 

I find the binary gabaa-glutmate quack theories of BB rather revolting. Things are not so simple. Benzos are known to influence gabaa. But that doesn't mean that gabaa is all it influences. It only means that it's effect on gabaa was cursorily studied when it was first launched and there have been no further investigations into benzos (because no one is interested). The duration and severity of withdrawals upon cessation of benzo suggest that it might be a very complex drug -- unlike say an SSRI which binds "selectively" over older tricyclic antidepressants.

 

Lastly, this down regulation and up regulation is also quackery. There is no evidence that it takes ages for gabaa receptors to up regulate in one who has discontinued benzos. They upregulate in a short time and even among those experiencing severe withdrawals. This is how the brain  behaves to almost all drugs it develops tolerance to. Suffice it to say, withdrawals don't occur because of gabaa down regulation. They occur because of something else that is happening in the brain.

I think Parker is partly responsible for peddling this gabaa-glutamate bedtime story. Folks in withdrawal need a bedtime tale 'cos they cannot sleep. Parker has since deleted her post (what is happening in your brain?) but for BB it has become the gospel truth even if it is full of rubbish.

Alcoholism can cause Thiamine deficiency, causing Wernekes Encephalopathy, and in which case high dose Thiamine is prescribed either orally, or via injection.    Benzo's, alcohol, work on same receptors.  Just a thought. 

 

 

Posts about permanent damage are seriously worrying to those in a sensitive state . I have also read this on another website

 

Whatever the mechanism for recovery,  it takes time, and a different amount of time for each of us

 

Because I drank in the past, in a stop start manner,  I have no doubt I was  kindled as they call it.  especially as the last time was hard and took 3 weeks to recover but recover I did and and well

 

I am therefore extremely concerned when I read not just here but other places that doing this could lead to permanent damage and fear that I have compounded it  unintentionally by taking valium as prescribed.

 

I do not know the reasons why I am not recovering well , but it might be that I  just need more time at my age,

 

Now however  I am  worrying  I will never recover, because 3 years before taking valium I stopped drinking ,   

 

 

Jen

Does vitamin B1 bind to AMPA receptors? The thing is anything that mimicks glutamate is going to cause waves in some people. And downregulation would require long-term treatment. Here it says to avoid the following:

    Vitamin D

    Vitamin B

    Magnesium

    Kava Kava

    Chamomile

 

Of course, we know the list of things to avoid is much longer. However, as you know we are all different, and one person's bane is another's best friend. Some people swear in a cannabioid or a supplement, and when someone else tries it causes much suffering. In the end you don't know how it'll affect you unless you try.

 

Wait... we're supposed to avoid Vitamin D?? I've been supplementing for almost 2 years now 

I think Parker is partly responsible for peddling this gabaa-glutamate bedtime story. Folks in withdrawal need a bedtime tale 'cos they cannot sleep. Parker has since deleted her post (what is happening in your brain?) but for BB it has become the gospel truth even if it is full of rubbish.

 

Oh man this is some real talk. I love it. For the record, that original post was deleted but it's still stickied at the top of the post-withdrawal recovery support board:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=191083.0

 

Also this thread has made me paranoid now because I take Vitamin D and Ashwagandha daily and have been for the last 12+months. I haven't noticed any horrible reactions, but I really hope it's not delaying my healing. Ugh.

 

benzos can also permanently sensitize the glutamergic AMPA receptors.

 

what is the meaning of "permanently sensitize receptors" and where is the evidence for it (like links)?

 

I find the binary gabaa-glutmate quack theories of BB rather revolting. Things are not so simple. Benzos are known to influence gabaa. But that doesn't mean that gabaa is all it influences. It only means that it's effect on gabaa was cursorily studied when it was first launched and there have been no further investigations into benzos (because no one is interested). The duration and severity of withdrawals upon cessation of benzo suggest that it might be a very complex drug -- unlike say an SSRI which binds "selectively" over older tricyclic antidepressants.

 

Lastly, this down regulation and up regulation is also quackery. There is no evidence that it takes ages for gabaa receptors to up regulate in one who has discontinued benzos. They upregulate in a short time and even among those experiencing severe withdrawals. This is how the brain  behaves to almost all drugs it develops tolerance to. Suffice it to say, withdrawals don't occur because of gabaa down regulation. They occur because of something else that is happening in the brain.

 

I'm refering to the central sensitisation caused by kindling during benzo WD. Central sensitisation and its role in benzo WD is scientifically documented.

 

 

benzos can also permanently sensitize the glutamergic AMPA receptors.

 

what is the meaning of "permanently sensitize receptors" and where is the evidence for it (like links)?

 

I find the binary gabaa-glutmate quack theories of BB rather revolting. Things are not so simple. Benzos are known to influence gabaa. But that doesn't mean that gabaa is all it influences. It only means that it's effect on gabaa was cursorily studied when it was first launched and there have been no further investigations into benzos (because no one is interested). The duration and severity of withdrawals upon cessation of benzo suggest that it might be a very complex drug -- unlike say an SSRI which binds "selectively" over older tricyclic antidepressants.

 

Lastly, this down regulation and up regulation is also quackery. There is no evidence that it takes ages for gabaa receptors to up regulate in one who has discontinued benzos. They upregulate in a short time and even among those experiencing severe withdrawals. This is how the brain  behaves to almost all drugs it develops tolerance to. Suffice it to say, withdrawals don't occur because of gabaa down regulation. They occur because of something else that is happening in the brain.

 

I'm refering to the central sensitisation caused by kindling during benzo WD. Central sensitisation and its role in benzo WD is scientifically documented.

 

I'm now more confused. What is the meaning of "central sensitization caused by kindling?" Where are the links to scientific literature?

 

For all the talk about sensitization here (I take it to mean down regulation of receptors), here is  research that says that down regulation of receptors is not responsible for withdrawal (unlike for opiates and opioids) because it quickly reverses unlike the drug withdrawal that continues to persist  --

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11812247/

 

Benzodiazepines are widely prescribed for the treatment of anxiety and sleep disorders. Although safe, tolerance develops rapidly to their sedative activity and more slowly to their anticonvulsant activity. In animals anxiolytic tolerance has also been measured. Abrupt cessation of benzodiazepine treatment leads to symptoms of withdrawal. The mechanisms responsible for these phenomena are not known. Benzodiazepines act via GABA(A) receptors, but do not appear to produce tolerance and dependence by simple downregulation of receptor number. GABA(A) receptors are hetero-oligomers comprised of multiple subunits encoded by a multigene family. The molecular effects of long-term benzodiazepine exposure are reviewed and a model is presented that draws on results from a number of research groups working in this area.

 

 

My neurologist says my nervous system is sensitised by WD.

He said that os why all meds, supplements now cause horrible symptoms and nothing works as it should.

He is also doubtful it can recover after being on Benzos 20 years and several reinstatements/updoses etc.

The thing is that I've never used benzos for more than 5 days. Instead I've binged them taking 50x doses over 1-2 days several times. Now I've got no symptoms other than 3 - 7 hours of choppy sleep. I used to get 9.  What is your sleep like?

I find the people who use the word quackery rather revolting. It sounds very snobbish and dismissive. Like only people with a PhD can read a study? That means most mainstream medical doctors are quacks for prescribing benzos then?

benzos can also permanently sensitize the glutamergic AMPA receptors.

 

what is the meaning of "permanently sensitize receptors" and where is the evidence for it (like links)?

 

I find the binary gabaa-glutmate quack theories of BB rather revolting. Things are not so simple. Benzos are known to influence gabaa. But that doesn't mean that gabaa is all it influences. It only means that it's effect on gabaa was cursorily studied when it was first launched and there have been no further investigations into benzos (because no one is interested). The duration and severity of withdrawals upon cessation of benzo suggest that it might be a very complex drug -- unlike say an SSRI which binds "selectively" over older tricyclic antidepressants.

 

Lastly, this down regulation and up regulation is also quackery. There is no evidence that it takes ages for gabaa receptors to up regulate in one who has discontinued benzos. They upregulate in a short time and even among those experiencing severe withdrawals. This is how the brain  behaves to almost all drugs it develops tolerance to. Suffice it to say, withdrawals don't occur because of gabaa down regulation. They occur because of something else that is happening in the brain.

 

Do you care to speculate on that 'something else' then?

The study's findings on the potential benefits of high-dose Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) and benfotiamine in mitigating PAWS damage are intriguing. The link between these B vitamins and normalizing sensitized AMPA receptors, especially those affected by stress, offers a possible solution for benzo PAWS-related sleep issues. As someone taking a Vitamin B Complex , I'm keen on exploring these benefits further. Has anyone in the community had positive experiences with Vitamin B1 or B complex in managing benzo withdrawal symptoms? I'm curious to hear personal insights on this.

Welcome to Benzo Buddies, @Juliette.   Hopefully you will get some responses from members who have had experience taking B1/B complex.   

7 hours ago, [[J...] said:

The study's findings on the potential benefits of high-dose Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) and benfotiamine in mitigating PAWS damage are intriguing. The link between these B vitamins and normalizing sensitized AMPA receptors, especially those affected by stress, offers a possible solution for benzo PAWS-related sleep issues. As someone taking a Vitamin B Complex , I'm keen on exploring these benefits further. Has anyone in the community had positive experiences with Vitamin B1 or B complex in managing benzo withdrawal symptoms? I'm curious to hear personal insights on this.

If you guys want another thiamine derivative to chase have a look at Sulbutiamine. It's a conjugate of two thiamine molecules which eliminates it's polarity and allows it to cross the blood - brain barrier readily.

In fact, as far as I know it crosses the BBB more readily than benfotiamine.