NAD+ treatment for benzo wd

[[Buddie]]

Dear Buddies,

There has been quite a bit of buzz on other sub-boards about NAD+ as a treatment for benzo wd, and several members have been after me to post my thoughts.  We all decided a few months ago that "Chewing the Fat" would be the place for the discussion of research and treatments.  I have been "wavy" these past couple of months, but I have been collecting info, waiting to both be well enough, and have enough info to share to make a new thread worthwhile.

I am not here to tell you all, "NAD+ is the cure!  Go get NAD+!"  I will tell you that I like its potential so much, I moved it to the front of the line of things I will probably try.

There are three buddies who posted how well it helped them.  I do not have any issue pointing them out because they posted it themselves.  If you wish, you can look up the posts of [...], [...], and Fishyfish5.  I have heard about 3 other cases from a source not benzobuddies, so I will not share any contact or links.

In summary, those 6 people went to clinics and got multiple IV infusions of a nutrient called NAD+ and felt better. One person, fishyfish5 says he is 100% cured, and the other 6 are/were doing "much better to nearly well" in 3-6 months with continued improvement in 2-3 years approaching pre-benzo normalcy.

NAD stands for Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide.  It is a coenzyme in dozens of chemical reactions in human metabolism.  For me to move something to the front of the line, it has to answer the question, "Why would it help us?"  Those that know me, know that I am 100% convinced that almost all of our misery is due to a disorder of glutamate reception.  Well, I scoured the internet for days, and found exactly one paper, but it does answer the question, "why would this help us."  For my fellow neuroscientists, here it is, but I will warn you, it [...] ALL I KNOW, to make the connection as to what it "says," and how/why it could help:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncel.2017.00021/full

I dissected this paper.  It makes a good case for reversing glutamate transmission and reception damage. (Anyone who can check my work, please have at it).  I am taking the paper, my dissection, and the 6 informal case studies and will be discussing it with my neurologist on Thursday.  He is also a neuroscientist, and literally the only doc I trust.

What I have learned about the specifics:

1. It takes 10-12 initial treatments of 500-1000 mg, usually with a day or 2 break in the middle.
2. You want to make certain you are getting pure NAD+.  There are other similar chemicals that are cheaper that do not have the same effect.
3.  It is not cheap.  It will cost between 5 and 20 thousand US dollars, depending on where you go, and how much you get.
4.  If I get it, I will personally choose to get NAD+, NAD+ and nothing but NAD+.  It is given in two different settings, "rejuvenation," and "unspecified addiction recovery," and depending on the clinic, they may have their own ideas as to what else would be beneficial for rejuvenation or addiction recovery.  If I do this, I am going to keep this experiment pure, and also, I am sooooooooo sensitive to every damn thing some "innocuous" vitamin is as likely to trigger me and ruin whatever the NAD+ helps.
5. I am not sure about fishyfish5, but [...] and [...] both used NAD+ to jump, as in ct from their benzo.  Neither was on a very high dose, but it was a ct, and they did not have ct horror stories.
6.  One may benefit from a few spaced out "booster" treatments, 1 or 2 sessions at a clip, a few months apart after the initial 10-12 treatments.

Right now.  That is all I know.  Do I think it will work?  I do not know.  A sample of 6 is too small, and if I had a nickel for everything that looked good on paper I would have a lot of nickels.  I like it enough that I am seeing what it takes to try it myself, soon.  I have personal checklist, and when it is complete, I will make my decision before the end of April.

If anyone has any thoughts or experiences one way or the other, please share.

Be well and good luck,

[...]

[[Buddie]]

Noted

Thanks for the info

Following

[[Buddie]]

[...] - thank you buddy!


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[[Buddie]]

Dear Buddies,

I had a PM exchange with fellow neuro-guru cs123.  He is very knowledgeable.  He had a great deal of skepticism, and to his credit, my "very-good-only-doc-I-trust-scientific-minded" neurologist essentially agrees with his skepticism.  They both were very clear that in their opinion, just because a few researchers proved under certain conditions NAD+ would prevent excitotoxicity in certain areas of the brain from a specific excitotoxin (bilirubin) does not prove it could help people damaged in other ways in other areas of the CNS or peripheral nerves.  Meaning this paper is very far from proof and only weak evidence that NAD+ could help me/us.

We all agreed that it was a positive sign that the paper showed NAD+ reduced intrinsic excitability as evidence that it MIGHT have a positive effect on over-excitable neurons, in other words OUR over-excitable neurons [Long-term-depressed (LDP) ionotropic glutamatergic receptors, for my fellow neuroscience friends].

All three of us wish there were more evidence, especially regarding its effect on neuroplasticity.  In other words that the effect of NAD+ on those over-excitable neurons is permanent.  Can it actually reverse damage?  Turn those LDP'ed glutamatergic neurons around for good?  I will admit I am much more optimistic about the applicability of NAD+ to us than cs123 or my neurologist, and I am not an optimistic guy.  I see no reason for a treatment that was shown to prevent excitotoxicity in one area of the brain, no to help all neurons everywhwere that our ionotropic glutamatergic neurons are  LDP'ed.  But I was so concerned about the plasticity or "permanence," that I emailed the authors.  Three times.  They did not reply.

There are 100 reasons they might not have replied, but I sure wish they did.

One last note, my neurologist said, "If he were me, he would do it in a second.  Given how long I have been suffering and how little reinstating on valium helped, I literally have nothing to lose but money, and if it allowed me to ct valium without a ct effect, that alone would be worth the price."

I have some thinking to do, and some things to arrange if I am going to try this.

I welcome comments and thoughts.

[...]

[[Buddie]]

Hiyah, [...].

Glad to see you're still hunting for answers. I saw your comment on my stem cell thread a few weeks back. I've been too down and wavy to form any kind of eloquent reply or to devote any serious attention to NAD+. It's something I've seen brought up on several occasions throughout my few years on this forum. So, it's been on my radar. Though, I've not seen enough evidence to pull the trigger on the big price tag.

It's good to hear of some pretty positive accounts, and the paper is interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone benefiting from, or trying it in a protracted state - correct me if I'm wrong! I recently got word that a clinic fairly close to me is offering NAD+ treatments for addiction with new insurance contracts that allow most of the costs to be covered by health insurance. This, of course, makes it much more interesting to me.

The thought of infusing high levels of any type of chemical or vitamin derivative or coenzyme or whatever is pretty scary, for fear of becoming worse or being set back again. Since I've not seen anyone attempt it when protracted and genrally see it used to help with CT, this is definitely intimidating for me.

Based on the publications I've shared and the incredible accounts I've seen with stem cells (one benzo patient, but hundreds of other neurology-related patients), it still seems to be the more powerful and promising option to me personally, but I understand why you are gravitating toward this. Maybe one can start with a small infusion to ensure no adverse reactions and if not... I agree - nothing to lose!

In fact, if the doctor I spoke to today is correct regarding insurance coverage, I may give it a whirl too at some point. Maybe stem cells and NAD+ would be an effective, powerful double team. *shrugs*

[[Buddie]]

Dear Nov,

Good to hear from you.  I am not expecting a miracle, and I am not expecting a walk in the park.  I am ready to buckle up, and see if it helps.  I mentioned that I found a clinic in NYC that would do ten 500 mg sessions for $4800, and they will verify purity.  That is not cheap, but it is not the $10-20k prices I have seen either which is why I could even consider it.

As I said, I have things I must arrange first, but right now I am leaning that way.

My "gut" tells me in would probably work better for the protracted than the ct'ers, and I am kind of both, so we will see.

If your nose is still pointing you toward stem cells, I did not mean to try dissuade you in anyway.  My confidence level in NAD+ is 50-50 at best, even with the other changes I am making.

I remember a line from Steve Trevor (Chris Pine) in Wonder Woman, "I tried doing nothing.  That didn't work, so now I am going to do something."

My only "advice" to you, is don't wait to feel better to try to feel better.  We believe it is always best to try something new when we are more stable.  My experience so far is that finding stability is like chasing my shadow.  I have good days and bad days.  Some I can pinpoint to triggers, others are random.  I will do my best to line up the sights, and then pull the trigger.

I am not a religious man, but I like the saying, "We control the effort.  God controls the outcome."  In the absence of God, basically I take that as if I can honestly say I have done everything I can to influence the outcome I seek, then that is that.

I do caution myself against "hope." Hope is the enemy.  Hope sets us up for disappointment.  I go for zen detachment from the outcome.    "I have prepared my best and I will try this.  What will be will be."

Good luck with whatever you do. (Hope is the enemy, but a little bit of luck never hurts ;-)

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[[Buddie]]

[...], hi...

This caught my eye...

NAD+ would prevent excitotoxicity in certain areas of the brain from a specific excitotoxin (bilirubin)

Did your discussion touch on Gilberts syndrome (poor glucoronidation; homozygous UGT1a1) and excitotoxin, recovery, utility of NAD+ in this subset of patients?

[...]

[[Buddie]]

[...],

Short answer, no.  I am completely unfamiliar with Gliberts syndrome and glucoronidation.  I was only looking for a paper, any paper, that discussed NAD+ and glutamate in any context.  And in conversations I have had with my doctor and with other buddies, neither Gilberts syndrome or glucoronidation ever came up.

I am gathering that is of interest to you.  I am kinda wavy right now, like "triggered," but not sure why.  If this is important to you, I could sniff around.  Let me know what you know and what you wish you knew.  You can post or PM as is your choice.  Just give me a few days to reply. 

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[[Buddie]]

One can buy sublingual NAD+ supplements that cost a lot less than IV treatments. I have a stockpile ready to go for when I jump off in a month or so.

https://alivebynature.com/

[[Buddie]]

DJ and all,

That is another approach.  Get clean first and see if oral supplementation helps at all.  The idea behind the IV infusion is that it goes EVERYWHERE in a short period of time.

I will add one more thing.  I have posted before that many websites state that niacin reduces glutamate, but if anyone knows how, he ain't publishing.  I have THE biochem text book Harper's, and is is not in there either. So here is a thought.  Niacin is vitamin B3, which is one chemical reaction away from niacinamide, no flush niacin, which is 3 or 4 chemical reactions away from NAD+.  The paper I posted, while no means conclusively "curative" for a us or any glutamate disorder, it certainly shows that that it will reduce both the transmission and reception of glutamate.

I used to be able to use niacin and naicinamide when I felt a little "glutamated," and other remembers report symptomatic relief from these, but since I have becoming too sensitive to histamine, they are no longer options for me as they cause histamine release.  I am wondering out loud with you know, if the conversion of niacin in many steps to NAD+ is the "reason" niacin clears glutamate that no one has published?

In closing, while I will not dissuade anyone from trying oral NAD+, and it may help by the above mechanism (or for that matter by another mechanism about which I have no idea), I do not think it will have the same benefit as a course of IV infusions.

Hope that helped someone.

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