.5 mg Xanax to Valium

I have been on  Xanax .5mg  (taken never more than once per day since Nov 25) for about 8 weeks.  Took a total of 20 Xanax - always .5 mg at night for sleep.  During this period I also mixed in 13 Ambien on some days where I did not take Xanax. This last month I have tried to reduce, and have only had 2 ambiens and 2 xanax. My psychiatrist says I could not become addicted at this low dose but I am really starting to doubt that as have started to experience dysphoria and horrible insomnia. I want to taper and get off as quickly as possible. I'm hopeful that the low dose means I can deal with any tapering. In desperate need of some guidance on what to do.

 

I don't yet have any Valium only Xanax, will probably be able to get some Valium by Monday.

 

Since I was taking only the one .5 dose per day should I substitute the entire dose with Valium right away or substitute a percentage of the Xanax.?

Hi VonDark,

 

Just a couple of questions, you've only taken 2 Xanax and 2 Ambien, can you tell me what exact time frame that is, what dose is the Ambien, and the Xanax is .5, correct?

 

I'm not sure crossing over to Valium is going to be necessary, can you tell me why you want to go this route?

 

Pamster

In  trying to reduce, I have taken one Xanax on the 4th and one on the 15th of this month, Ambiens on Jan 6,8.  Prior to that, I had taken 18 Xanax and 11 Ambien over the days in November and December.  During January I have had some really bad days, with a couple nights having akathisia and the last 3 having chronic insomnia.  Psychiatrist gave me Remeron for sleep but I'm so wired I only get about 3-4 hours of interrupted sleep.

Ambien was the ER version 12.5

I thought switching to Valium was the right way to taper off of Xanax. Thought taking only 1 dose per day at night for sleep would allow me to take it longer.      Based on the symptoms I'm feeling I think i have built up a dependence.

 

I've been taking Prozac 20mg as well.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

I agree with Fi Addendum, you've taken so few in the last in the last two weeks, I'd stop them altogether and ride out the symptoms.  Tapering requires getting on a stable dose, taking it every day and then slowly reducing from there, this would send you backwards, increase your dose and leave you longer on the drug.

 

The same applies to crossing to Valium, a typical crossover would involve tapering the Valuim in while reducing the Xanax and Ambien, then begin a slow taper once fully crossed over, which again, will have you on the drug much longer.

 

You're welcome to post on the forum asking for other members help in how to deal with the symptoms you're feeling, but I hope you'll not stay on the drugs any longer than you have to.  Both are powerful drugs which should be used only for a short time, and you're on the far edge of that short time, so I hope you'll leave them behind.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

The pubmed article you quoted demonstrates nothing about neuronal receptors. Also, all benzos do bind the same receptor and the only difference is their potency and pharmakokinetics. Valium is a good substitution for many people including myself. Z drugs do bind to GABA receptors somewhat differently.

 

Nevertheless, I also agree that after such short-term use, I would try to just quit and not taper.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

 

Pamster, Perhaps I did not precisely paraphrase this statement from the discussion section of the Pub Med article cited above:

 

"The effectiveness of other benzodiazepines at treating alprazolam withdrawal has been studied. The triazole ring found in alprazolam may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in areas of the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines[6]. A review of eight case reports of alprazolam withdrawal published between 1984 and 1986 combined with six unpublished cases reported to the manufacturer provide early evidence of unique properties related to this agent. Chlordiazepoxide and diazepam were both found to be ineffective in preventing withdrawal symptoms in two separate cases. This review has been cited as providing clinical evidence to suggest that there is incomplete cross-tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines[7]."

 

It would have been more accurate for me to have quoted from the article which states in part that "...the triazole ring found in alprazolam (Xanax) may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines ..."

 

The footnotes to the article are primary sources for the statements made in the article to which I was referring.

Pamster, this is an aside but why do you not request EastCoast to provide ANY sources for the many statements she regularly asserts as facts such as this one from today? 

 

"Most people just stop taking benzos abruptly, (cold turkey) and they don not suffer a bit." 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=234401.msg3024867#msg3024867

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

 

Pamster, Perhaps I did not precisely paraphrase this statement from the discussion section of the Pub Med article cited above:

 

"The effectiveness of other benzodiazepines at treating alprazolam withdrawal has been studied. The triazole ring found in alprazolam may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in areas of the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines[6]. A review of eight case reports of alprazolam withdrawal published between 1984 and 1986 combined with six unpublished cases reported to the manufacturer provide early evidence of unique properties related to this agent. Chlordiazepoxide and diazepam were both found to be ineffective in preventing withdrawal symptoms in two separate cases. This review has been cited as providing clinical evidence to suggest that there is incomplete cross-tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines[7]."

 

It would have been more accurate for me to have quoted from the article which states in part that "...the triazole ring found in alprazolam (Xanax) may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines ..."

 

The footnotes to the article are primary sources for the statements made in the article to which I was referring.

 

"May have a significantly higher binding affinity". Or may not.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

 

Pamster, Perhaps I did not precisely paraphrase this statement from the discussion section of the Pub Med article cited above:

 

"The effectiveness of other benzodiazepines at treating alprazolam withdrawal has been studied. The triazole ring found in alprazolam may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in areas of the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines[6]. A review of eight case reports of alprazolam withdrawal published between 1984 and 1986 combined with six unpublished cases reported to the manufacturer provide early evidence of unique properties related to this agent. Chlordiazepoxide and diazepam were both found to be ineffective in preventing withdrawal symptoms in two separate cases. This review has been cited as providing clinical evidence to suggest that there is incomplete cross-tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines[7]."

 

It would have been more accurate for me to have quoted from the article which states in part that "...the triazole ring found in alprazolam (Xanax) may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines ..."

 

The footnotes to the article are primary sources for the statements made in the article to which I was referring.

 

"May have a significantly higher binding affinity". Or may not.

 

Is the Earth Flat? It "may be" but, only uninformed or seriously indoctrinated persons would argue that it is.

 

I'm not trying to put you down but, I am suggesting that you and most definitely others should investigate and evaluate the available evidence that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, are ineffective in treating w/d symptoms from triazolobenzodiazepines, like Xanax, before propagating dogma that may indefinitely injure individuals' ability to function, the may cause further physical and emotional injury to these individuals and that may also tragically injure the caregivers and dependents of benzodiazepine injured individuals based upon faulty dogma.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

 

Pamster, Perhaps I did not precisely paraphrase this statement from the discussion section of the Pub Med article cited above:

 

"The effectiveness of other benzodiazepines at treating alprazolam withdrawal has been studied. The triazole ring found in alprazolam may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in areas of the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines[6]. A review of eight case reports of alprazolam withdrawal published between 1984 and 1986 combined with six unpublished cases reported to the manufacturer provide early evidence of unique properties related to this agent. Chlordiazepoxide and diazepam were both found to be ineffective in preventing withdrawal symptoms in two separate cases. This review has been cited as providing clinical evidence to suggest that there is incomplete cross-tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines[7]."

 

It would have been more accurate for me to have quoted from the article which states in part that "...the triazole ring found in alprazolam (Xanax) may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines ..."

 

The footnotes to the article are primary sources for the statements made in the article to which I was referring.

 

"May have a significantly higher binding affinity". Or may not.

 

Is the Earth Flat? It "may be" but, only uninformed or seriously indoctrinated persons would argue that it is.

 

I'm not trying to put you down but, I am suggesting that you and most definitely others should investigate and evaluate the available evidence that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, are ineffective in treating w/d symptoms from triazolobenzodiazepines, like Xanax, before propagating dogma that may indefinitely injure individuals' ability to function, the may cause further physical and emotional injury to these individuals and that may also tragically injure the caregivers and dependents of benzodiazepine injured individuals based upon faulty dogma.

 

It is just not true. There  are thousands of studies showing that all the benzos act on the same GABA receptors.

Xanax is a triazolobenzodiazepine & I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does. This may indicate regular Benzos are not a good substitute or crossover medication for Xanax.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triazolobenzodiazepine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4021153/

 

It appears that you have used Benzos/Z-drugs for a relatively short time which is a good thing if you wish to cease completely.

 

Personally, in your circumstances, I would try to not use any more benzos/Z-drugs unless it's absolutely necessary or for medical procedures and I would research &/or seek professional medical advice for better alternatives. Best Wishes

 

Hello Fi Addendum,

 

It appears you've added an additional link to your post since I responded to VonDark, I'm curious as to how the link supports your statement that "Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does".

 

I would appreciate as well seeing your citations for your statement:  "I've recently read reports that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, may not attach to all of the same neuronal receptors that Xanax does."

 

Thanks,

 

Pamster

 

Pamster, Perhaps I did not precisely paraphrase this statement from the discussion section of the Pub Med article cited above:

 

"The effectiveness of other benzodiazepines at treating alprazolam withdrawal has been studied. The triazole ring found in alprazolam may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in areas of the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines[6]. A review of eight case reports of alprazolam withdrawal published between 1984 and 1986 combined with six unpublished cases reported to the manufacturer provide early evidence of unique properties related to this agent. Chlordiazepoxide and diazepam were both found to be ineffective in preventing withdrawal symptoms in two separate cases. This review has been cited as providing clinical evidence to suggest that there is incomplete cross-tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines[7]."

 

It would have been more accurate for me to have quoted from the article which states in part that "...the triazole ring found in alprazolam (Xanax) may have a significantly greater binding affinity for a subgroup of benzodiazepine receptors in the brain that are not generally influenced by other benzodiazepines ..."

 

The footnotes to the article are primary sources for the statements made in the article to which I was referring.

 

"May have a significantly higher binding affinity". Or may not.

 

Is the Earth Flat? It "may be" but, only uninformed or seriously indoctrinated persons would argue that it is.

 

I'm not trying to put you down but, I am suggesting that you and most definitely others should investigate and evaluate the available evidence that regular benzodiazepines, like Valium, are ineffective in treating w/d symptoms from triazolobenzodiazepines, like Xanax, before propagating dogma that may indefinitely injure individuals' ability to function, the may cause further physical and emotional injury to these individuals and that may also tragically injure the caregivers and dependents of benzodiazepine injured individuals based upon faulty dogma.

 

It is just not true. There  are thousands of studies showing that all the benzos act on the same GABA receptors.

 

Here are the abstracts for the two primary sources cited in the main article. Neither are scientific studies - both are based on a small number of case reports and are speculative in nature.  The articles are also old - from 1986 and 1987.

 

6. Browne JL, Hauge KJ. A review of alprazolam withdrawal. Drug Intell Clin Pharm. 1986;20:837–841.

 

A cumulative review of case reports in the literature describing withdrawal reactions secondary to alprazolam is presented. In four of eight reports, the primary withdrawal manifestations were grand mal seizures. One case was characterized by painful myoclonus. In the remaining three cases, the major complications consisted of rebound anxiety with psychotic features. Despite tapering of the daily dosage according to manufacturer guidelines, a withdrawal syndrome was precipitated in three of the cases. As a result of alprazolam's atypical pharmacodynamic profile, the issue is raised as to whether alprazolam is pharmacologically cross-tolerant with other benzodiazepines.

 

7. Albeck JH. Withdrawal and detoxification from benzodiazepine dependence: a potential role for clonazepam. J Clin Psychiatry. 1987;48 Suppl:43–49.

 

Alprazolam and triazolam dependence and withdrawal may be uniquely problematic. This paper describes current clinical approaches to benzodiazepine withdrawal, with a focus on recent experience with alprazolam. The withdrawal characteristics of the triazolobenzodiazepines are discussed, and the epidemiology of benzodiazepine dependence is reviewed. Estimates of the incidence of alprazolam abuse are provided from Drug Abuse Warning Network data. The only two case reports in the literature of failure of cross tolerance between alprazolam and other benzodiazepines are noted to be open to alternative interpretations. A case is reported in which a patient was successfully detoxified with clonazepam from a very high dose of alprazolam. The author concludes that clonazepam may have a role in withdrawal from high-dose alprazolam dependence.

 

Pamster, this is an aside but why do you not request EastCoast to provide ANY sources for the many statements she regularly asserts as facts such as this one from today? 

 

"Most people just stop taking benzos abruptly, (cold turkey) and they don not suffer a bit." 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=234401.msg3024867#msg3024867

 

Thanks for the heads-up Fi Addendum, what would I do without you, it looks like I'll need to pop in there and ask for a citation.  But to answer your question about eastcoast62, as far as I can tell she is here to encourage rather than discourage, I'm not sure about others.

Pamster, this is an aside but why do you not request EastCoast to provide ANY sources for the many statements she regularly asserts as facts such as this one from today? 

 

"Most people just stop taking benzos abruptly, (cold turkey) and they don not suffer a bit." 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=234401.msg3024867#msg3024867

 

Thanks for the heads-up Fi Addendum, what would I do without you, it looks like I'll need to pop in there and ask for a citation.  But to answer your question about eastcoast62, as far as I can tell she is here to encourage rather than discourage, I'm not sure about others.

 

Pamster, you may view Eastcoast62's 'encouragement', like the statement quoted above, as a good thing but I view that sort of statement as extremely dangerous. For example, what if someone said: Most people can play Russian Roulette with a loaded gun and  won't die..."?  The statement may be factually correct but, encouraging the playing of that sort of 'game' will result in many deaths over time and if many players decide to try playing that 'game'. Can you and the BB forum justify this type of 'encouragement' of such a dangerous 'game'? 

Pamster, this is an aside but why do you not request EastCoast to provide ANY sources for the many statements she regularly asserts as facts such as this one from today? 

 

"Most people just stop taking benzos abruptly, (cold turkey) and they don not suffer a bit." 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=234401.msg3024867#msg3024867

 

Thanks for the heads-up Fi Addendum, what would I do without you, it looks like I'll need to pop in there and ask for a citation.  But to answer your question about eastcoast62, as far as I can tell she is here to encourage rather than discourage, I'm not sure about others.

 

Pamster, you may view Eastcoast62's 'encouragement', like the statement quoted above, as a good thing but I view that sort of statement as extremely dangerous. For example, what if someone said: Most people who play Russian Roulette with a loaded gun don't die..."?  The statement may be factually correct but, encouraging the playing of that sort of 'game' will result in many deaths over time and if many players decide to try playing that 'game'. Can you and the BB forum justify this type of 'encouragement' of such a dangerous 'game'?

 

Enough Fi, let it go, you've hijacked this thread meant for helping VonDark (a new member by the way) with your unsubstantiated claims and your personal issues with eastcoast62, which frankly are getting tiresome.  It almost appears as if you follow her around reading every post waiting for the opportunity to jump in with your criticisms.  Your scorched earth scenario is ridiculous and unworthy of a response.

VonDark...I would agree with the rest here about trying to get through without going back on either Ambien or Xanax at this point, if you can help it.  Insomnia is nearly universal after being on a z-drug or benzodiazepine but it will resolve with more time.  I had luck with chamomile tea before bed.

Thank you both for your responses.  It has been really hard to find consensus out there on what constitutes short term use. Considering I only took 20 of the .5 pills over this length of time I will be trying to just stop completely and see how it goes.

 

Thanks again

Best of luck...I think you’ll find your symptoms lessening with some more time. As to length of use, generally short use means getting over this quicker.  Eight weeks is a little beyond short use but you only took 10mg total. Most of us wish that were the case!

I'm on day 5 after my last Xanax dose of .5  mg.  I am trying to do this cold turkey as suggested above because of my relatively light usage.

So far the side effects have only been insomnia with the occasional muscle spasms.

If the dysphoria returns and it becomes unbearable, should I take the .5 Xanax, less than .5 or try to move some % of that to Valium?

Hi VonDark,

 

Your symptoms sound uncomfortable but manageable, I hope this is the case.  I have a question, did you have dysphoria before you took the benzo's?

No I did not have any dysphoria before the Xanax, just terrible anxiety.  I am also taking .20 mg Prozac at the same time so it is possible that the dysphoria was from that medication, but the more I read the more I think it was probably part of the Xanax withdrawal, which happened prior to my last dose taken on January 15th.

I'm glad to hear you didn't experience dysphoria before, this tells me it's most likely caused by medication.  My advice is to stay as far away from any benzo if you can, your brain is repairing the damage done by the drug, it will only set your healing back if you add in the occasional Xanax. 

 

I hope you can ride this out and stay benzo free so you don't end up like the thousands of people who didn't stop this drug in time to prevent the absolute misery they're living with.

 

Okay, enough of my lecture and pep talk.  I'm just so grateful that at least one person who joined our forum may escape months and years of hell.